880 replies to this topic

[The Escapists]

monsoon, on Dec 2 2007, 07:13 AM, said:

^That was the original proposal, but when they approved the 2030 plan, it was changed to build the entire extension at once.  

I have heard a rumor there might be an effort underfoot to go back to the phased approach and use more local money to build the 36th street portion sooner.

monsoon, please elaborate if you can. whose feet is this under? and what does "sooner" mean?

[carolina_fan]

RiverwoodCLT, on Dec 1 2007, 10:36 PM, said:

Hope the number riding the South Blue line is much higher than CATS projected.  This may help to get the Norteast Line moving on a fast track.

It's exciting how the LRT has been received, and how crowded the trains are so far.  What is the current proposed timeline for the Northeast line?  What would be the timeline if they built it to NoDa first, and then to UNCC?  What would might a "fast track" timeline look like?

[Henry_Ryto]

orulz, on Nov 29 2007, 04:49 PM, said:

Can't find a better thread for this to go into... dubone, if you want to move it please feel free.

I was reading up on Calgary's LRT for hints on why it was so successful whereas many other transit systems in the US (and Canada, even) struggle to garner half the ridership out of a metro area with over twice the population. This is with the hope of finding something in Calgary that can then in turn be applied to Charlotte.

This paragraph from a report about C-Train's effective utilization of capital seems to be one of the keys:



Limited roadway capacity and expensive parking? Figures... damn evil socialist communist Canadians. Thank God we live in a Free country, the U-S-of-A! Free, as in, Freeways and Free (or at least Cheap!) parking everywhere!

(the above was sarcasm in case you can't tell.)

At any rate, it seems that Calgary embraced the "high cost of free parking" concept very early on, at least for downtown. I haven't found any information on their land use and parking policies outside of downtown. At least in the US, it was (and continues to be) a commonly held notion that if parking is expensive or scarce downtown, then your downtown will die. Suburbanites flee to the malls in droves (strip or otherwise) where parking is free and plentiful. But it seems this didn't quite happen in Calgary, or at least not as much as most US cities. It is an interesting question to explore.

The train left the station decades ago for roadway capacity in Charlotte, and it seems unlikely that continuing improvements (Independence, 77 widening, etc) will cease. But perhaps Charlotte could look at Calgary's parking policies and adopt some of them? Just a thought.

As a condition of getting Federal funding, Norfolk was required to limit parking downtown. If Charlotte isn't doing it, it should look at it.

[staffer]

bja, on Dec 2 2007, 07:29 AM, said:

It's exciting how the LRT has been received, and how crowded the trains are so far. What is the current proposed timeline for the Northeast line? What would be the timeline if they built it to NoDa first, and then to UNCC? What would might a "fast track" timeline look like?

2013 was the planned completion date (last three stations are, UNC-C, Mallard Creek Rd, and I-485 P&R). Opening to 36th Street mainly involves rail yard issues (first of which is crossing the CSX Charlotte/Monroe line which I believe carries a lot of freight) and potential construction of a NS Intermodal yard at the airport frees up a lot of space at the N Tryon railyard. There is another rail line that goes off toward Stanly County that has to be crossed as well, otherwise the LR can stay in the NCRR Corridor when trackage issues are resolved. I believe Charlotte has only bought the corridor as far as I-277 (the NCRR ROW runs UNDER 277, then past Alpha Mills where it meets the CSX line.)

The toughest and most expensive part of the NE line is past Sugar Creek when it moves over to N Tryon, and especially the Harris Blvd crossing (underground? elevated??)

Funding issues may be paramount, however, in deciding whether to phase the line

Edited by staffer, 02 December 2007 - 10:13 AM.

[monsoon]

^The current 2030 Plan makes the NE expansion an all or nothing plan.  There is no current plan to phase it and the application to the federal government for funding will be for the entire expansion being built at once.   Of course it could be changed, but this would require an action from the MTC and I am not sure they are wanting to open up that can of worms right now.

[ChiefJoJo]

monsoon, on Dec 2 2007, 11:18 AM, said:

^The current 2030 Plan makes the NE expansion an all or nothing plan.  There is no current plan to phase it and the application to the federal government for funding will be for the entire expansion being built at once.   Of course it could be changed, but this would require an action from the MTC and I am not sure they are wanting to open up that can of worms right now.

I don't see any reason why the plan could not change again.  The MTC's 2030 PLan is based on the best known info at the time, and for the NE line, that info was somewhat incomplete.  The application to FTA was for preliminary engineering, which includes an EIS and something like 25% design... it's entirely possible that while in more detailed design, some new information could come forward (unforseen costs, issues with DOT's Right-of-way on Tryon, North Line being cancelled, etc) that could make the phased approach more viable in the short term.  Also, so long as the South LRT's ridership continues to be strong, the FTA's cost-effectiveness becomes less of an issue, as transit line extensions with actual documented ridership data are far more likely to achieve funding than untested ones.

[ES Charlotte]

monsoon, on Dec 2 2007, 12:18 PM, said:

^The current 2030 Plan makes the NE expansion an all or nothing plan.  There is no current plan to phase it and the application to the federal government for funding will be for the entire expansion being built at once.   Of course it could be changed, but this would require an action from the MTC and I am not sure they are wanting to open up that can of worms right now.

A small blurb........
This article is still circulating talk of expanding the line into cabarrus county with the help of a new 1/2 cent sales tax.. This would be great for concord and kannapolis...

[ES Charlotte]

ES Charlotte, on Dec 3 2007, 11:41 AM, said:

A small blurb........
This article is still circulating talk of expanding the line into cabarrus county with the help of a new 1/2 cent sales tax.. This would be great for concord and kannapolis...

guess i should let you know what article... Its in the observer.
http://www.charlotte...ory/388801.html

[monsoon]

ChiefJoJo, on Dec 3 2007, 10:33 AM, said:

I don't see any reason why the plan could not change again.  .....

The biggest obstacle is once they start those discussions again, people from every other corridor in CLT will start to petition the MTC to move their area up in priority.   The Eastside wants their streetcar, the Westside wants a train, Matthews wants a train and so forth.   The MTC and the county has no desire to touch that again unless it is absolutely necessary.    Can it happen sure it can.  Will it, I am not so sure at this time.  Maybe in 5 years.  

In any case, the current booked plan is to build the NE line as just one project.  The phase approach was scrapped when they approved the 2030 plan.   This decision was based on Tober's comments they could not get the finances to work on the NE line without ridership to UNCC.

[staffer]

ES Charlotte, on Dec 3 2007, 11:08 AM, said:

guess i should let you know what article... Its in the observer.
http://www.charlotte...ory/388801.html

Planned NE line terminus is at a P&R lot on current DOT property at N Tryon and I-485. Extension to LMS would be about 2.5 miles, but major cost would be bridge over 485.

an old thread from UNC-C campus website speculates on this. Smith is alleged to have told Concord Mayor Padgett a year or two ago at some public event that he (Smith) would kick in $50m for an LRT extension.

[staffer]

June 2006 30-page detailed report to MTC on NE line is here, includes FTA approval process diagram. This was for a public hearing. You can see the design option. Their are three options - Sugar Creek/Eastway section (not sure what MTC decided), UNC-C campus (on campus route chosen), and whether terminus would be inside or outside I-485 (inside chosen).  Page 18 shows the proposed alignment on UNC-C campus. Page 26 shows costs for bridging 485 (extra $30m and would likely garner 200 riders), but of course extension to LMS could dramatically change ridership #s

[Andyc545]

I'm just going by numbers that I picked up here on this site:

@50 to 75 million per mile for the LRT extension, we are looking at about 125 million to 187.5 million plus 22 million for the bridge (don't know how safe these numbers are but a good estimate nonetheless).  This looks like a total of 147 million to 209.5 million for an extension to LMS, so lets say $200 million.  Smith is saying he will only kick in 1/4 of that @ $50 million.  How would this remaining cost be justifiable and who would spend it?  Now I totally agree, LMS is a great ending point for the LRT.  It connect another county to the city and would help tremendously especially during the races and events, as well as help connect Cabarrus Counties bus system to get people to the mall, etc.  By the numbers that I had ran, to me it doesn't seem very cost feasable, honestly.  If Smith wants it, he should be paying at least half of it, since the line would add probally 2 stations- one which would be his.  So who would pick up the 100 million dollars.  I say if Cabarrus or Concord was willing to pay 100 million or more with Smith's 100 million, then it should be expanded.  If they paid more, then it would end up being a bargain for Charlotte/Meck b/c it would help actually fund the current plans.  I guess the bigger question is would they support and pay for it?  Obvious Smith really wants it, but he may have to up the stakes.

staffer, to my knowledge, all of CATs most recent plans still have that Sugar Creek cooridor undecided.  I think that was something that would be examined as far as cost performance during the engineering and planning stages.

EDIT: they have the bridge price at $22 million.

Edited by Andyc545, 03 December 2007 - 07:01 PM.

[atlrvr]

Why doesn't Bruton just threaten to move the track unless Concord is willing to extend to LRT to LMS?

Honestly though, I don't see how the cost can be justified to LMS to Smith.  There is tons of parking, and the capacity of Lynx would make a minimal impact on traffic.  He possibly is envisioning having private parking lots, but would people pay to park at LMS, or would they just drive to the next station that CATS own that would be free?

[Andyc545]

atlrvr, on Dec 3 2007, 08:51 PM, said:

Why doesn't Bruton just threaten to move the track unless Concord is willing to extend to LRT to LMS?

Honestly though, I don't see how the cost can be justified to LMS to Smith.  There is tons of parking, and the capacity of Lynx would make a minimal impact on traffic.  He possibly is envisioning having private parking lots, but would people pay to park at LMS, or would they just drive to the next station that CATS own that would be free?

Also N. Tryon / Speedway Blvd doesn't really get that busy, comparably, aside from the big races.  It would probally be more feasable for them to just run busses from the end to LMS, and maybe Lowes could invest into private LMS busses for the races to transport people themselves.  Would be a lot cheaper.

Just trying to envision a non-race day.  I would likely expect to see near-empty trains, aside from maybe Cabarrus Co Commuters, which the 485 station would be able to support that anyway...  Still don't see this cost feasable unless Cabarrus wants it badly enough to pay for it along with Smith.

Edited by Andyc545, 03 December 2007 - 08:15 PM.

[monsoon]

Light rail as implemented here in CLT simply does not have the bandwidth (capacity) to make any dent at all in a race event.   At max capacity a station can only handle 3000 people/hour (one direction) and that is if they go to the 5 minute response time which they are not doing now.   A race event can have upwards of 250,000 attending.  1.2% of this/hour isn't much.  

But let's assume they decide to ignore this fact and build the line all the way to the Speedway anyway.   If it adds $200M-$250M to the price of the line, and does not add at least another 6000 daily riders, it will most certainly cause the feds to reject funding for the entire line.    Remember what I mentioned before, federal funding is based on the total cost of the line, not where the money is coming from.   As far as the feds are concerned it won't matter if Concord or Smith kicks in money or not.   If the cost goes up then ridership needs to go up too.   This is why they are not building the phased line, it's why they canceled the earlier planned station on the other side of I-485, and why the line will not go to LMS.  

Federal rules are written now as to not fund lines and so Tober, and I will give him credit for this, choose the only option that stands any chance of getting federal funds.  That is a line that connects downtown to UNCC, nothing more nothing less.   Anything else doesn't have enough ridership to justify the cost.

[ES Charlotte]

monsoon, on Dec 3 2007, 10:48 PM, said:

Light rail as implemented here in CLT simply does not have the bandwidth (capacity) to make any dent at all in a race event.   At max capacity a station can only handle 3000 people/hour (one direction) and that is if they go to the 5 minute response time which they are not doing now.   A race event can have upwards of 250,000 attending.  1.2% of this/hour isn't much.  

But let's assume they decide to ignore this fact and build the line all the way to the Speedway anyway.   If it adds $200M-$250M to the price of the line, and does not add at least another 6000 daily riders, it will most certainly cause the feds to reject funding for the entire line.    Remember what I mentioned before, federal funding is based on the total cost of the line, not where the money is coming from.   As far as the feds are concerned it won't matter if Concord or Smith kicks in money or not.   If the cost goes up then ridership needs to go up too.   This is why they are not building the phased line, it's why they canceled the earlier planned station on the other side of I-485, and why the line will not go to LMS.  

Federal rules are written now as to not fund lines and so Tober, and I will give him credit for this, choose the only option that stands any chance of getting federal funds.  That is a line that connects downtown to UNCC, nothing more nothing less.   Anything else doesn't have enough ridership to justify the cost.

So Concord mills, the most popular tourist attraction in NC wouldnt supply enough riders to consider this extension. (Sad we consider this a tourist attraction, but... it is what is...)

[Andyc545]

ES Charlotte, on Dec 3 2007, 11:06 PM, said:

So Concord mills, the most popular tourist attraction in NC wouldnt supply enough riders to consider this extension. (Sad we consider this a tourist attraction, but... it is what is...)

Well although the mall and speedway gets a lot of tourism and people, you have to assess how many of these people would actually use the LRT to get to to places such as the line supplies- UNCC, NoDa, Uptown, and the extension which is Pineville area and S. End.  People that are up in Cabarrus on tourism are mainly either a) people with cars, b) race oriented traffic that are there sticking around for the races and local restraunts/shopping/hotels, c) people that are visiting and sticking to the area specifically.  Aside from the races, which we have 2 or 3 main ones, you wouldn't see these people "needing" uptown or the other areas that I have identified, aside for a small portion.  Most will find their way of getting around without the need of a train, in honesty.  Now if the line was there, maybe I would take it to get to Concord Mills to shop, however that area is so unpedestrian friendly that if I was doing more than just going to the mall, I'd be force to drive anyway, like go to Red Lobster across the street.  Still, you have to think the mall would be another extension crossing 85, and that would probally be another 250 million dollars on top of the leg to LMS.  I live up in this area and can say LMS is not the most lively of places when there's not a race or big event.  I'd only expect to see commuters from Cabarrus using the line up at that stop, and if they can drive to that station, then they can drive the extra 2 miles on a 50/55 mph road with little traffic and just a few stop lights, and get to the 485 station to commute into uptown or uncc with only an extra maybe 5-10 minutes of driving.  Aside from LMS, there really isn't any room for TOD or even such things as restraunts/retail/or residential areas that you'd be able to walk to from a station at LMS.  They own so much of the land there and it is all covered by surface lots for as far as the eyes can see. I'd love to see rail transportation reach places such as Cabarrus, but this extension certainly wouldn't make sense by any means.  Like I said, it wouldn't be unreasonable, however, for LMS to purchase some busses like CATs has, plaster their logo all over it for a much smaller cost, and use it during events to transport pedestians to and from the 485 station and the mall.  Concord also has a small bus system which they could possibly expand their bus network to accomodate the last station on the LRT at 485 to their main tourist destination- Concord Mills.  Unfortunatly the area around LMS is really just a big dead zone, a huge waste of space when it's not being crammed by 250,000+ people.  Yes- the mall is a different story, but a 5 mile extension and a hugeeeee price tag almost doubling what is already in place for the NE Line would not be very well taken nor logical.

Edited by Andyc545, 03 December 2007 - 10:38 PM.

[ES Charlotte]

I understand what you are saying and it makes plenty of sense. I guess im just a bit bias considering i live in China Grove and commute downtown everyday to school. I also just want to see Charlotte expand its transit a bit into another county. Maybe this will be much more feasible in time(longtime).
Thanks for the input.

[orulz]

^^ Commuter Rail on the NCRR would be a much better option for transit from China Grove to downtown. But that probably won't happen for a long time, and it's a topic for a different thread anyway.

[ES Charlotte]

So any of you think we could start a petition to get commercial advertising on the buses.. If we did, could anyone run the numbers on what it would bring in to help with transit and does it seem like a realistic possibility?