174 replies to this topic

[monsoon]

[twincity]

it still sucks because its only van service.  we need our own station.

[cityboi]

I think eventually Winston-Salem will have to get its own station. The city is becoming too important not to have one.

[Myles Away]

They are working on it. When they finish the high speed rail system in the southeast Winston-Salem will have a stop on the train at historic Union Station. Until then they have to close crossings and upgrade track.

[yadkinv]

Even more important is making sure the high speed train to Ashville goes thry W-S not Salisbury!!!

[Danny 4 Peace]

Agreed.

I want the Asheville train to go through downtown Winston-Salem. It would only strengthen our ties to Western North Carolina or WNC as its sometimes called. Since the completion of the Appalachian Way about 100 years ago and our rail and highway network that connects us to every western NC city we have been called the Gateway to Western North Carolina

[JunktionFET]

Whether or not it becomes a reality, Greensboro based PART (Piedmont Authority for Regional Transportation) has been planning a regional mass transit system for the Triad using BRT, Commuter Rail, or a combination of both technologies.

PART was created by the state in 1997 and is funded by a rental car tax established in Guilford and Forsyth counties. They presently operate an express bus between Winston-Salem, Greensboro, High Point, and PTI airport. They also offer connector service to Chapel Hill Medical Center and Duke Medical Center (in Durham).

For a couple of years David King, NCDOT's deputy secretary of transportation, has spoken highly of a rail based alternative in the Triad, and has implied that the state would support the development of such a system if the Triad were to become serious about it. The region would need to provide local funding of some sort, probably some sort of new or modified tax. Charlotte is cited as a good model to follow in the state.

A proposed starter commuter rail line would connect Hanes Mall in western Winston-Salem to NC A&T in eastern Greensboro with nine stations initially. The cost of the initial 33 mile line would be somewhere near $400 million, and $100 million would be needed from the Triad for the proposal to have any chance of seeing the light of day. The existing rental car tax used for PART wouldn't cut it.

Though $400 million sounds like a lot (and it is), it is far less than the $700 million pricetag on the 28 mile TTA system and it covers more ground than the $420 million 11 mile south LRT line in Charlotte. The proposed starter line would add a second set of tracks to the existing rail, and would probably involve the closure of several unsignaled crossings along the way.

Let's add to this discussion over time, as we have with the other NC regional transit threads.

Below are a list of articles I found interesting, and I hope you all do as well:
http://www.bizjourna...14/daily33.html  (Relates to Dell)
http://triad.bizjour...ts1.html?page=1  (Long but informative)

This is an older article, but it discusses the possible future for Union Station in Winston-Salem  

I'll try to post some maps as well as some other pertinent data later on. Feel free to post your findings as well.

[orulz]

I have a number of thoughts and comments about rail in the Triad, but let me start with this:

The budget projection for TTA's rail system was originally around $200 million. As they performed more studies and did more engineering work, they realized that there was more to it than they originally thought. Then the neighborhoods and municipalites came in with their own set of demands, raising the pricetag even further. There's no doubt in my mind that the same thing will happen in the Triad as well.

---

The line being considered for PART's first regional rail line is the Norfolk Southern "K"-line between Winston Salem and Greensboro. It is a lightly traveled railroad only used for local traffic, as opposed to the busy "H" mainline through the Triangle. So rather then needing a completely seperate set of tracks like TTA, PART might be able to buy the whole "K" line from NS, double-track it (except for a few of the larger bridges, which could be left as is), upgrade it for higher speeds, install signaling, and boom, regional rail line. Freight hauling rights could then be negotiated with NS, and performed at off-hours when there are no passenger trains to interfere.

Buying the line outright is a bit touchy of a situation, because despite its low traffic, the "K" line is very valuable to Norfolk Southern. With the "K"-"L"-"O" route through Winston-Salem, Mocksville, and Mooresville, it's the only way NS trains can move between Greensboro and Charlotte without ever leaving NS-owned trackage (the route they use now, through High Point and Salisbury, is actually owned by the state.) It's debatable what the price might be, but if they made a sweet enough deal I'm sure NS would give in. The whole scheme might even be possible with the line still under NS ownership, too, but freight railroads don't like being told when to run their trains so good luck on that one.

[Jerseyman4]

I am all for new rail service for the Triad. How much longer can I-40 be moving at most times of the day before it reaches the point of overcapacity through most times of the day? The triad is very car reliant but it does have a great bus system i know of in Greensboro.

[JunktionFET]

orulz said:

The budget projection for TTA's rail system was originally around $200 million. As they performed more studies and did more engineering work, they realized that there was more to it than they originally thought.

Definitely, just look at the cost projections from this 2002 article (linked above) versus the latest estimates published in the Business Journal articles. Granted the latest version is 6 miles longer, but still...

orulz said:

It is a lightly traveled railroad only used for local traffic, as opposed to the busy "H" mainline through the Triangle. So rather then needing a completely seperate set of tracks like TTA, PART might be able to buy the whole "K" line from NS, double-track it

I agree, and in fact it sounds like the starter proposal calls for upgrading the existing tracks and building another set alongside (see this article, again)--effectively double-tracking the corridor. I guess they figure the existing tracks are used little enough that they could reliably run regional commuter trains on it during the day without many conflicts.

Buying the railroad would be a great solution though and is certainly feasible. Perhaps when and if the time comes around for this system, it will be an option worth more consideration.

Jerseyman4 said:

The triad is very car reliant but it does have a great bus system i know of in Greensboro.

My sister goes to Greensboro every now and then to visit friends and do some projects. Before her most recent day-long excursion she was was complaining about having to drive, so I suggested she take the train there. Whenever she is in New York City or Washington DC she uses mass transit almost exclusively. When I suggested the train, she was like "oh yeah" and that it never occurs to her that such options exist here at home (though not as versatile... yet).

She took the train from Cary to Greensboro in the morning and ended up buying a GTA Multiride Bus Pass upon arrival in Greenboro. Multiride or Day Passes are a little known treasure in the transit world.

She used the pass to get from the train station to UNCG where she did some things, then took a bus to her friend's apartment. They both took the bus back to downtown to do some studio work, have lunch, etc... Finally around 7pm she took the train back to Cary. I think she ended up spending less than $20 for transportation all day, and look at the ground she covered! The Piedmont train and GTA bus took her everywhere she needed to go.

Edited by NorffCarolina, 14 April 2005 - 10:01 PM.

[JunktionFET]

Here's some more news--4/14/2005

On Wednesday PART agreed to set up a committee which will develop the plan to increase funding for a major regional transit system. Of course they will supplement their funds with federal and additional state money for such an endeavor, but right now the ~$2.6 million raised by the existing rental car tax barely scratches the surface. It is very good news that they are making the effort to secure a good source for local funds.

The news article also has a brief description of the starter line from Hanes Mall to NC A&T, with a different set of numbers (oddly enough), and a hopeful time frame for the system to start.
-----
The first segment of rail would be a 37-mile line from N.C. A&T in Greensboro to Hanes Mall in Winston-Salem that could be built as early as 2014. Earlier studies said installing rail along that corridor would cost $319 million; whereas bus service would cost $167 million.
-----

The mayor of Greensboro is obviously behind the system and has urged PART to help educate the public on the benefits of the rail line and why it is important to plan ahead now
-----
As the decision on whether to build a rail line draws closer, Greensboro Mayor Keith Holliday asked PART to increase public awareness about the benefits of a rail system in an effort to thwart criticism he said is already developing.
-----

Click here for the full article. Enjoy!

Edited by NorffCarolina, 15 April 2005 - 12:15 PM.

[twincity]

Here is a graphic from Monday's Winston-Salem Journal...an interesting comparison to Charlotte's light rail and the one proposed for the Triad.  I still think its bad planning that no stop is proposed deeper into High Point.  Im sure this is very prelimanry but isnt it obvious from recent news that SE Forsyth to SW Guilford has the potential to be a very highly populated area?

Here is the full article from journalnow.com

http://www.journalno...s=1037645509137

Edited by twincity, 03 May 2005 - 04:27 PM.

[orulz]

twincity, on May 3 2005, 06:13 PM, said:

I still think its bad planning that no stop is proposed deeper into High Point.  Im sure this is very prelimanry but isnt it obvious from recent news that SE Forsyth to SW Guilford has the potential to be a very highly populated area?

The line they're considering stays exactly on the Norfolk Southern K-line. That makes it very cheap and very easy to acquire all the right-of-way needed; any deviation from that line makes it orders of magnitude more expensive and difficult to piece together the necessary ROW. Besides, travel times would be too long if you tried to include all three cities on one line. You'd lose the PTI connection, too.

However, PART is also looking at a corridor along the NCRR for Greensboro to High Point, and another corridor that heads along the NCRR to the 311 bypass and follows that to I-40, where it cuts through to the Norfolk Southern K-line just east of WS Union Station. The 311 route would probably require a lot of grading to be used for rail, so realistically I expect BRT to be implemented on that corridor. I think that's kind of unfortunate, since I'd like to see the WS-HPT corridor extended along the rail line to Asheboro. Now wouldn't that be neat?

twincity, on May 3 2005, 06:13 PM, said:

...an interesting comparison to Charlotte's light rail and the one proposed for the Triad

It's also interesting that they're comparing it to Charlotte's LRT, while it's in fact almost physically identical to the TTA rail system in the Triangle. I guess the idea is that Charlotte's system works while the TTA's is struggling. The Triangle hasn't done nearly as good of a job drumming up support for TOD as the folks in Charlotte. Perhaps it's because there are a lot more municipalities to coordinate with in the Triangle: Raleigh, Cary, Morrisville, RTP, and Durham each have their own master plans and zoning policies and I guess giving the developers something to work with was pretty tough. Hopefully the Triad can do a better job getting the engine of regional cooperation started from the get-go.

Edited by orulz, 03 May 2005 - 04:58 PM.

[cityboi]

I think the Triad has to have a good PR campaign to get alot of support for this project before the idea is crushed before take off. The skeptics will say the Triad isnt ready for it yet and will be too costly. I think using existing rail lines cut the costs down dramatically rather than other Triad rail proposals I saw like monorail which would require the development of expensive two-way elevated track. By using existing lines, the big costs would really be for develping the rail stations and stops. Fortunatly, Greensboro alreday has a downtown multi-modal depot. Winston-Salem is planning to redevelope its downtown rail station. So really its about building a new station at PTI airport and multiple stops in between Greensboro ind Winston-Salem. I believe High Point should be further included because it is an important center, especially with the furniture market. a regional rail system would do a great deal in keeping the furniture market from leaving High Point and going to Las Vegas. Its easier for market goers to stay at hotels in downtown Greensboro, Winston-Salem, the airport area. All they have to do is go a few blocks and hop on a train which would take them to downtown High Point very quickly. Maybe this should be part of the case in a PR campaign.

Edited by cityboi, 04 May 2005 - 08:09 AM.

[orulz]

Here's a map showing the BRT and rail alignments of all four lines proposed by PART.

[cityboi]

Interesting, I wonder why there are two major rail hub in the airport area in Greensboro. Also I think there needs to be a village hub in Kernersville. I'm also glad Burlington is tied into the system because Burlington is like an extension of Greensboro. Alot of people from Burlington Commute to Greensboro.

[JunktionFET]

cityboi, on May 29 2005, 02:55 PM, said:

Interesting, I wonder why there are two major rail hub in the airport area in Greensboro. Also I think there needs to be a village hub in Kernersville. I'm also glad Burlington is tied into the system because Burlington is like an extension of Greensboro. Alot of people from Burlington Commute to Greensboro.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

One hub is for the BRT option, the other for the Rail option... It would be one or the other, depending on what technology is used. Needless to say, I'm pushing for the rail option.

And yes, Kernersville would definitely need something special if the rail option is persued.

[twincity]

I laugh everytime i see this map.  its so obvious that PART is Hq'd in Greensboro.  if this plan goes through... W-S (population of around 200,000) will have the same amount of stops as High Point (population around 100,000).  

there should be stops at:

US52 and University Parkway
LJVM Coliseum
Wake Forest University
US421 and Main St in Kernersville
I-40 and Peters Creek

Edited by twincity, 30 May 2005 - 05:15 PM.

[orulz]

twincity, on May 30 2005, 07:00 PM, said:

I laugh everytime i see this map.  its so ious that PART is Hq'd in Greensboro.  if this plan goes throught. W-S population of around 200,000 will have the same amount of stops as High Point.  population around 100,000.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Every other map and description that I've seen has shown at least slightly different stops. The only thing that map shows accurately is the alignment of the lines. Some of the areas you mention (WFU and the one at US52/University Pkwy in northern WS, for example) could be served by feeder buses in the short term and future extensions in the long term. (Commuter rail to Mt. Airy? Could happen...)

I also notice that most of your suggestions are on road alignments that could only be served by BRT. Where would you like to see stops added on the rail alignment? In particular, the I'm curious, because I don't know anything about W-S at all.

Anyway, here's a slightly newer version of the map, split into two - one for BRT and one for rail.

[49er]

well one interesting thing with the ridership forecast is that the 9100 for Charlotte is just for the 9.6 mile line to the south. The 7,500 for the triad system is for 33 miles. This sorta sounds low for such a lengthy system.

Interesting, there will end up being 3 very long commuter rail lines in the state, the 3rd being the Charlotte to Mooresville line that will be around 30 miles.