190 replies to this topic

[ah59396]

dubone, on 05 April 2012 - 07:54 AM, said:

Well, the Red Line Gold Rush on Trade Street has the highest passenger count in the whole CATS system.  Partly because it is fare-free, so hop on/hop off is an easy option.  If the city builds the first phase of the streetcar from French to Sunnyside as proposed by the city manager as part of the tax hike, it would be nice to actually see the whole thing fare-free.   That is also part fantasy world where money is no object, as I suspect in the end they may need to resort to some revenue bonds or something.  

CATS has disavowed the streetcar, and left it to the city of Charlotte to build on its own outside of transit tax budgets (WTF?).  Yet, it is relying on the streetcar connection to add capacity to the heavily used Trade St route within uptown to connect its two bus system hubs.   Otherwise it will be an absurdity to have some CATS bus routes go to CGS and some go to CTC and have no reasonable way to transfer.    They could potentially resolve that by having routes from the east of the city pass CTC and end at CGS and routes from the west of the city pass CGS and end at CTC, but that would be a lot of bus routes.   But is still a disjointed strategy.  

I absolutely do not like the over street escalator idea, even with money not being an option.   It is 1/3 of a mile to Tr&Tr and 1/2 a mile to CTC, which is in a typical station's walking radius.   If they can't have the light rail system stop at CGS, the next best thing is the streetcar.



They plan 7 tracks, 2 for the Red Line, 3 for N-S freight, and 2 for Amtrak.    This is the short-sightedness I am talking about.   Big cities have regional rail/commuter rail in all directions.   Charlotte will be a big city someday, ergo our central station needs to have room for expansion.   The Amtrak pair of tracks or the Red Line pair may be able to serve a couple extra lines like for the airport or Rock Hill, but what if we do end up with regional rail in all 5 or 6 directions that we have railroad corridors to right now (Albemarle, Statesville, Rock Hill, Monroe, Mt Holly, and Gastonia).   Would all those trains coming in at rush hour be able to work in 2 pairs of track?  I just don't want us being stuck with short sightedness, because realistically, when we become a city of 5m, we will need all of those radials to our satellite cities.

Would you like my overhead escalator idea more if we all got wear matching silver one pieces and moon boots?

[carolinagarnet]

This may be a dumb question, but it seems like there is a trend nationwide to route freight trains around major cities to avoid headaches for traffic and to remove obstacles for the trains within the cities. Is it feasable that at some distant future point N-S will reroute its freight trains around the city? I know building new rail is prohibitively expensive and the current route connects the yard at NoDa to the new multimodal yard at the airport, but I wonder if it will ever be worth it for them to build dedicated track north and west of the city, or to push more of its freight onto other lines elsewhere that do not run directly through CLT metro.

They did exactly that through Orlando, although the major difference was that the tracks were not elevated and therefore had to compete with street traffic. The city reused the downtown tracks as commuter rail, which either has or will open within the next couple years. If the Red Line ever gets off the ground, this would help alleviate the traffic on at least part of the line and might free up the stretch from Uptown to the airport for a dedicated airport train. I would assume the new track would run north of I-85 within the I-485 loop in the area that is considerably less developed right now. Again, just a general question since i am unfamiliar with N-S's future plans.

[dubone]

Obtaining new rights of way for rail corridors is expensive then building is even more expensive.   Plus, suburban NIMBYs are exhausting.

So, it is more appropriate to just keep going with current routing and ameliorating the routes, such a adding grade separations and reducing horn noise as much as possible.

[thetrick]

carolinagarnet, on 05 April 2012 - 08:43 AM, said:

This may be a dumb question, but it seems like there is a trend nationwide to route freight trains around major cities to avoid headaches for traffic and to remove obstacles for the trains within the cities. Is it feasable that at some distant future point N-S will reroute its freight trains around the city? I know building new rail is prohibitively expensive and the current route connects the yard at NoDa to the new multimodal yard at the airport, but I wonder if it will ever be worth it for them to build dedicated track north and west of the city, or to push more of its freight onto other lines elsewhere that do not run directly through CLT metro.

The real question is do we want to do it AGAIN. The original southern line was right through the center of down town where the current Lynx line is. At some point long ago they built a connector south of downtown that connects the line to Columbia to the current NS main to Atlanta at was is currently called "Charlotte Junction".  This is also where the proposed wye near the airport is to be located.

To be honest the NS main line is very well set up it's above grade for the most part and not in the center of town. Plus, why would the RR move, it's not in their interest, you can't really make them move.

TH

[carolinagarnet]

I guess my question was more about N-S needing to expand their capacity in say 30 or 40 years. Let's assume that a couple factors will converge: more high densitiy development between the stretch from the airport and University and increased regional freight demand as well as more traffic from the Panama Canal. If it does not construct new tracks to build more capacity routed around the city, does N-S have the ability to build new tracks in its existing footprint? Getting back to the Gateway Station, do we foresee Charlotte adding additional tracks for N-S in Uptown? Maybe it is too premature to plan to really confirm the number of tracks they have current planned (7 I believe), but I'm just curious how they anticipate expanding the tracks if they find such a need in the future.

[southslider]

dubone, on 05 April 2012 - 07:54 AM, said:

Otherwise it will be an absurdity to have some CATS bus routes go to CGS and some go to CTC and have no reasonable way to transfer. They could potentially resolve that by having routes from the east of the city pass CTC and end at CGS and routes from the west of the city pass CGS and end at CTC, but that would be a lot of bus routes.   But is still a disjointed strategy.  

Honestly, it is an existing absurdity that CATS patrons wanting to travel between West and East Charlotte need to even transfer today at CTC.  And slow-moving streetcar ain't the answer.  Ultimately, CATS should interline routes like the 6-Beatties Ford and 9-Central.  Once streetcar is built, move the routes to 4th and 5th, freeing up Trade for the slow-moving, urban circulating streetcar.  Outside of Uptown, the interlined bus route could operate more like Sprinter with limited-stop service, where overlapping streetcar.  But given the JCSU to Sunnyside limits of streetcar, these bus routes will likely still be needed to provide local service along Beatties Ford and Central.

Edited by southslider, 05 April 2012 - 01:42 PM.

[tozmervo]

I saw some old Charlotte Transit route maps recently, and interlined routes used to be the rule. I have to assume that the out-and-back routing they use today is done for scheduling. It's a lot easier to keep buses on time when there's a "layover" period at the CTC, which an interlined route may not necessarily have.

[thetrick]

carolinagarnet, on 05 April 2012 - 12:07 PM, said:

I guess my question was more about N-S needing to expand their capacity in say 30 or 40 years. Let's assume that a couple factors will converge: more high densitiy development between the stretch from the airport and University and increased regional freight demand as well as more traffic from the Panama Canal. If it does not construct new tracks to build more capacity routed around the city, does N-S have the ability to build new tracks in its existing footprint? Getting back to the Gateway Station, do we foresee Charlotte adding additional tracks for N-S in Uptown? Maybe it is too premature to plan to really confirm the number of tracks they have current planned (7 I believe), but I'm just curious how they anticipate expanding the tracks if they find such a need in the future.

Actually they won't need to. One of the exciting developments in RR technology recently is the automation of dispatching and routing. With PTC (positive train control) and CTC (centralized track control) slap some real time routing software on that and you can cram a LOT of trains on a set of double track main line. Trains will operate longer, faster and closer together. Think of it as operating a railroad like a data routing network. Software is on orders of magnitude cheaper than additional track.

Even if NS did needed more track the their right of way is a 150ft wide in most places so they have plenty of room. Each additional main line track only requires about 12ft of space.

TH

[dubone]

http://www.charlotte...anned-near.html

It is interesting that the O is harping about this but not the major expansion of the Pipe and Foundary next door.  


It is a shame so much land close to town needs to go toward this, but it seems this is just an extension of the Gateway Station plans.

[tozmervo]

At least it's a pretty "back of house" area along the highways. I work very close to that location, and I can count on one hand the number of times I've been through there.

[nonillogical]

tozmervo, on 08 May 2012 - 07:39 AM, said:

At least it's a pretty "back of house" area along the highways. I work very close to that location, and I can count on one hand the number of times I've been through there.

I go through here as the 'back way' to work pretty much every day (mostly since biking on Morehead is so dangerous) and I really don't think this land was destined for much else. I do however think we'll eventually see some thoughtful development more towards the top of the hill on Summit. I'm not sure of the exact boundaries of the rail yard, but I think an eventual buffer park or something might be nice between there and the neighborhood.

I guess it might be prohibitively expensive, but with 5 tracks crossing Summit now, I really wish they could grade separate them. It can be a really long wait there with already very frequent trains.

Edited by nonillogical, 08 May 2012 - 10:13 AM.