190 replies to this topic

[southslider]

I'd quickly accept a large amount of value-engineering to the station, if it meant moving and operating it sooner.  You could cut back on a lot of the shiny things without losing the more functional location and its shared use by commuter rail.

[dubone]

Why do we have to value engineer it?   We don't need that much more money for it.  It seems very reasonable to expect that we'll get the rest of the funding in the next few years.  

Seriously, we do have a station.  It sucks, but it at least meets the needs while we work to coordinate all the efforts to build the new one.  I've been following this for most of the time I've lived here and all along they expected to start getting funding for it around now, and they have funding now in place for a significant number of prerequisite track work.  You can't really value engineer the most expensive part of the remainder of the funding we are waiting for, which is widening the bridges thru downtown.  There is not enough track room to have the station there yet, even if they setup a party tent, the trains can't stop here yet.  

Plus, the station is a coordinated effort between CATS, Greyhound, and Amtrak.  It is really dumb that they have not been able to get Greyhound into their new location already, but really, now that so much stimulus funding has come through, NCDOT will surely work to expedite that part of things because it is more imminent than ever that the rest of the funding will come through.

This is not a 2050 thing we're talking about.

[Miesian Corners]

^^So 2025, then?  

[dubone]

It is unclear when any unfunded project is going to be finished.  But here is what we know:
- It is in the next highest level of prioritized rail projects by the state, so any new money from the federal government will go towards that set of projects that will include the funding of Gateway station.  FY11 has 1B and FY12 has 2.5B, some of which is likely to be allocated to NC.

- They have allocated $130m of stimulus money to a project between the current Charlotte Station and the future Gateway Station, which clearly has no bearing on the current Charlotte to Raleigh rail service.  That is a significant sign of commitment to building the new station downtown.

I will bet you a cake that it will be funded in the next 5 years.  I'll even go for the bet of a beer that it will be funded in the next 2 years.  

[Miesian Corners]

dubone, on 05 February 2010 - 09:26 AM, said:

It is unclear when any unfunded project is going to be finished.  But here is what we know:
- It is in the next highest level of prioritized rail projects by the state, so any new money from the federal government will go towards that set of projects that will include the funding of Gateway station.  FY11 has 1B and FY12 has 2.5B, some of which is likely to be allocated to NC.

- They have allocated $130m of stimulus money to a project between the current Charlotte Station and the future Gateway Station, which clearly has no bearing on the current Charlotte to Raleigh rail service.  That is a significant sign of commitment to building the new station downtown.

I will bet you a cake that it will be funded in the next 5 years.  I'll even go for the bet of a beer that it will be funded in the next 2 years.  

I'll take the bet if you change "funded" to "construction".  Give me a date of steel and concrete and you're on.

[thetrick]

New member, long time Charlotte rail transit watcher here.

I agree with dubone.

The funding of the ADM/CSX crossing separation is in my opinion the biggest sign that charlotte rail transit (local and interstate) is being taken seriously by the fed.

It's particularly interesting seeing that a few years ago when CATS and NCDOT were working with the fed DOT the fed said they thought the grade separation was too expensive and a bad idea and told CATS/NCDOT to go back to the drawing board. Now there may have been some design improvements since then, but at the time the fed was wholesale rejecting the idea.

I'm glad they came around.

This should also be a great help to getting the North Corridor commuter rail project.

Todd

[uptownboy]

So what's wrong with kicking greyhound out via eminent domain? I know of several businesses that were forced to relocate from this area per eminant domain. How much vested interest does the government have in greyhound? Don't they help subsidize?

Edited by dubone, 05 February 2010 - 01:10 PM.
Edited to fix all caps. Welcome to UP, but sheesh.

[dubone]

I'm sure they could legally kick them out if they wanted to.  The issue is that they provide a public service that is consistent with the goals, and are a partner in the new station.  I'm sure it is just a matter of coordinating.  No one really could have predicted that such a huge stimulus would be made available for this type of project, so I am sure it couldn't respond quickly enough.  

That said, hopefully now they see the momentum and start turning the ship now to get Greyhound building their new facility soon.  I hope atlrvr is right that it was already roughly planned for the end of 2010, as that should be about right.

And Mies, i'll go with that bet, even though I don't actually think construction will start, but why not.  We'll do a 2012 beer and a 2015 cake bake lol.  No promises about the flatness of either though.

[Urbanity]

I don't think Greyhound is purposefully holding back so much as they wanted some guarantees about timelines from the State before the sale which probably wasn't possible until recently.

Edited by Urbanity, 05 February 2010 - 01:38 PM.

[Spartan]

I am of the mind set that if we're going to build a center city train station, lets do it right the first time. Don't build a piece of crap that is going to look bad in 20 years. Build something that will last. I have come to appreciate the 20's era mentality of building public buildings and monuments for people to be proud of. As an aside, I find it interesting that we, as a nation, don't build monuments in our cities anymore (outside of war memorials in DC).

[krazeeboi]

Spartan, on 06 February 2010 - 04:11 PM, said:

I am of the mind set that if we're going to build a center city train station, lets do it right the first time. Don't build a piece of crap that is going to look bad in 20 years. Build something that will last. I have come to appreciate the 20's era mentality of building public buildings and monuments for people to be proud of. As an aside, I find it interesting that we, as a nation, don't build monuments in our cities anymore (outside of war memorials in DC).

And the arch in Atlantic Station.

[Urbanity]

Spartan, on 06 February 2010 - 04:11 PM, said:

I am of the mind set that if we're going to build a center city train station, lets do it right the first time. Don't build a piece of crap that is going to look bad in 20 years. Build something that will last. I have come to appreciate the 20's era mentality of building public buildings and monuments for people to be proud of. As an aside, I find it interesting that we, as a nation, don't build monuments in our cities anymore (outside of war memorials in DC).

While I don't want something that looks like garbage either, I'm more concerned about the future capacity and function being built into the station than of monumental architecture.

I would love to see Charlotte get a scaled down version of the Berlin Hauptahnhof station which I think fits with a lot of Charlotte architecture.  http://newpennstatio...n/models/berlin


BTW I think the WTC Transportation hub is going to be considered a monument.

[dubone]

I know it is fun to dream, but back to reality.   The total number of trains planned per day even with high speed rail can be tallied on your fingers and maybe add your toes if you add in the Red Line to LKN.  Yes, the lower Manhattan transit hub a wonderful monument, but $3.2b buys you a lot more than $40m. Lower Manhattan deserves a $3.2B hub for the amount of travel, and Charlotte deserves a $40m one.  

It is too bad that we didn't have a nice preserved station or even a historic industrial building like they had in Durham. But while the architecture is a little bland, I thought they were very creative with giving it some of the elements like a grand hall and large plaza, by putting the bus hub underground and by combining it with an office building project.  While a 7ksf atrium is no Grand Central Station, it way more than would be otherwise justified here for new construction.  Sadly, we don't have a Commodore Vanderbilt equivalent to build ours for us.

[Urbanity]

^^^
I'm not sure if this was in response to my post, but I wasn't suggesting that Gateway station build a Grand Central or WTC hub station - that part of my comment was in relation to it being mentioned that no one is building monuments in American cities anymore.

[staffer]

dubone, on 08 February 2010 - 09:09 AM, said:

I know it is fun to dream, but back to reality.   The total number of trains planned per day even with high speed rail can be tallied on your fingers and maybe add your toes if you add in the Red Line to LKN.  

Actually, the AMTRAK/HSR proposal is four round trips Raleigh/Charlotte, four Raleigh Charlotte-Washington, plus the thru Crescent New Orleans to New York. The Red Line will have 16 rountrips at full build out.

That means CGS would have 24 originating departures and 24 terminating arrivals, plus the Crescent.

Interestingly, the EIS (can't find it right now) from 2006 for SEHSR talked about the HSR trains having a station at the airport in addition to Gateway Station, but I haven't heard anything about that recently,

(corrected)

Edited by staffer, 08 February 2010 - 03:05 PM.

[dubone]

I'll throw in the head, shoulders, and knees with the toes and fingers then to count the extra 4 daily trips I missed.  Still not justification for a Hauptbahnhof sized facility.  

I'll also add that the Red Line is just planning to build a normal transit station on the west side of the freight tracks, so those users will not even actually go through the indoor part of the station.

[Urbanity]

dubone, on 08 February 2010 - 02:14 PM, said:

I'll throw in the head, shoulders, and knees with the toes and fingers then to count the extra 4 daily trips I missed.  Still not justification for a Hauptbahnhof sized facility.  

Agreed.  Which is why I stated in my first post a scaled down version of that station.  

To clarify - I was speaking from the visuals of the architecture of what I consider to be an elegantly simple glass/transparent building as shown in the Berlin Station.

[kermit]

staffer, on 08 February 2010 - 11:13 AM, said:

Actually, the AMTRAK/HSR proposal is four round trips Raleigh/Charlotte, four ____ Raleigh Washington _____, plus the thru Crescent New Orleans to New York. The Red Line will have 16 rountrips at full build out.

Did you mean Charlotte-Washington? confused....

[staffer]

kermit, on 08 February 2010 - 02:28 PM, said:

Did you mean Charlotte-Washington? confused....

oops, yes, 4 trips Charlotte-Washington via Raleigh

[dubone]

At its essence, we are getting a scaled down version of the Berlin Hpf.  It is basically two 5-story towers with a covered attrium, all glass.  Ours is somewhat like that, only a much smaller atrium, as we expect many fewer people at ours.