17 replies to this topic

[woob]

Is Birmingham becoming the Detroit of the south?

[HSVTiger]

woob, on Mar 5 2008, 06:44 PM, said:

Is Birmingham becoming the Detroit of the south?

ok I'll bite, in what way?
Detroit is a very interesting place.

[woob]

HSVTiger, on Mar 5 2008, 07:12 PM, said:

ok I'll bite, in what way?
Detroit is a very interesting place.

many ways.. one of the main probably fleeing people

[Huntsville_secede]

HSVTiger, on Mar 5 2008, 07:12 PM, said:

ok I'll bite, in what way?
Detroit is a very interesting place.

I don't think you can really compare Birmingham and Detroit.  I've lived in both Alabama and Michigan.  First of all metro Detroit is a much larger core city and metro area.  Secondly Detroit has been declining for decades, and while Birmingham inner city may be losing population the overall Birmingham metro area as far as jobs and economy has remained very prosperous.  Detroit region overall population growth has remained stagnant... (Huge declines in the city limits, limited growth in the suburbs).  Detroit has recently begin a large urban redevelopment in downtown but it has been overshadowed by the continued decline of Michigan's economy.  Large companies like Phizer Pharmecuticals I believe in Ann Arbor and Comerica and other companies relocating their headquarters from Michigan.  Alabama right now is one of the most prosperous economies in the nation due to auto plants building here and announcements such as the tanker and steel plant Mobile, and banking in Birmingham, and Areospace in Huntsville and biomedical in both Birmingham and Huntsville.

[kayman]

I find the notion that Birmingham is becoming the "Detroit of the South" more flawed than a validity to the argument.  Although in the past I've said that it could wind up becoming the "Detroit of the South", but the thing is that Birmingham has and Detroit doesn't is a large research university and its surrounding think tank like UAB.  

Birmingham crime issues is not going to make an 180 overnight, but the fact that Birmingham Police Chief Roper, Mayor Langford are making serious and major efforts to put a hold on the city's crime issues are showing that they are trying.  It is showing because overall crime is down and the number of homicides and violent crimes are down.  They have all made it their goal to change the mindset that Birmingham is a "dangerous place" for law-abiding citizen rather a dangerous place for criminals.  The BPD has made 5 major crime sweeps over the past 3 months, so one can't say they city's leaders aren't trying.  However, it takes time, efforts, and finally patience.

The city's schools are whole nother issues.  The problem has been and will be the Birmingham Board of Education which in my opinion should have never been made an elected one.  Until this city sees a major demographic shift from an highly informed base of electorate to one that is more informed and not so politically polarized then the Birmingham BOE will continue to be a group of incompetent individuals that lack the political forititude to make the decisions to fix this ailing school district.  One can only hope the Alabama State Board of Education does take over the Birmingham School District so that it can make the major decisions and cost-cutting measures to ensure the district's students will get a full quality education and more of a chance to have a variety of advance placement and foreign language courses offered at other schools in surrounding districts.  

Birmingham is actually gaining more white collar jobs now more than ever, and many groups from the Greater Birmingham are now lobbying to the Alabama Development Office and the State Legislature to ensure more incentives and recruitment efforts to bring in even more white collar jobs.  Birmingham is far from being a one-shop town with jobs in the financial, medical, biotech sectors and all of which are rapidly growing.  Most of the manufacturing auto jobs are on this regions periphery in areas like Vance and Lincoln, an other parts of the state like Hyundai in the South Central Alabama and Toyota in Decatur.  So even economically, Birmingham is far from becoming a "Detroit" because its economy is not based on one particular economic sector.  

Detroit has and is still only experiencing "urban revitalization" within its downtown areas while it has yet to see most of its other neighbhorhoods make a comeback.  Birmingham on the other hand is existing revitalization in its City Center, surrounding neighboroohds and the beginnings to make a turnaround in other neighhorhoods even in areas quite a distance from the City Center like Ensley.  

So no, Birmingham is not on the verge of becoming the "Detroit of the South"

[MJLO]

Leonard23, on Mar 9 2008, 10:44 AM, said:

but the thing is that Birmingham has and Detroit doesn't is a large research university and its surrounding think tank like UAB.

Not going to get into any arguement about it.  I've never been to Birmingham so I only know the basics about it, population, demographics, metro statistics ect.  I would never compare it to Detroit, I just wanted to refute the above statement

Detroit has I think six major colleges inside it's borders, the largest being, Wayne State University 33k student, major research university, with medical, law and many many other colleges inside of it .

It's unfair to say that Birmingham is becoming the Detroit of the south.  Detroit has had it's hard times, but it's mostly political.  While Michigans economy is suffering, it is still ranked 16th as of 2006 for per capita income. So don't be looking for soup kitchens yet.  Comparing Michigan and Alabama is apple and oranges.  Michigan is not ONLY auto.   It's still a leader in research and development, Biotech, Banking, Insurance, and many others.  Yes it's true that it's a manufacturing powerhouse and it's struggling hard in that sector.  The truth is in other industries, as long as you have a degree you do fine.  You still find the same exclusive shopping in the Detroit area, that you find in Chicago, Atlanta ect....  But as a previous forumer said, You're talking about Birmingham, That has 1.1million metro ( forgive me if that's wrong that's a wikipedia figure) , and you have Detroit that has more people in it's CSMA than all of Alabama.  How could you make a fair comparison?

[hudkina]

Detroit has two major research universities: The University of Michigan (Ann Arbor) and Wayne State University (Detroit).  Together with Michigan State University in nearby Lansing, they have created the University Research Corridor which is actually comparable to other major research groups in Massachusetts, North Carolina, etc.

Also, Detroit is a much larger city than Birmingham.  The city of Birmingham has 236,000 people in an area of 150 sq. mi.  Detroit has 920,000 people in an area of 140 sq. mi.  Hell, Detroit has suburban areas that have more people than the city of Birmingham in a smaller area.  The Royal Oak area has a population of 225,000 people in an area of just 43 sq. mi.

Oakland County (which is only the second largest County in Metro Detroit) has a larger population than the entire Birmingham CSA.  The Detroit CSA has more people than there are in the entire state of Alabama.

So, no I believe Houston actually became the Detroit of the South...

Edited by hudkina, 09 March 2008 - 01:00 PM.

[MJLO]

I believe the point of this thread was really to talk about the issues facing Birmingham AL.  Let us NOT turn this into a pissing contest between to cities that are both great in their own right, and NOTHING alike.

[zen509]

Yeah, I'm not sure how you can compare the two. Detroit is still a major national city.

[rolltider]

MJLO, on Mar 9 2008, 01:25 PM, said:

I believe the point of this thread was really to talk about the issues facing Birmingham AL.  Let us NOT turn this into a pissing contest between to cities that are both great in their own right, and NOTHING alike.

I agree.  I live in Birmingham but have visited Detroit several times.  The only similarity between the two is the decline of the central city beyond that there is nothing to compare.

[hudkina]

I'm not trying to start anything over the two cities, but there is a point where one has to step in when such comments are made.  Obviously, several posters have a misguided view of Detroit that needs to be amended.

[Huntsville_secede]

hudkina, on Mar 11 2008, 11:43 AM, said:

I'm not trying to start anything over the two cities, but there is a point where one has to step in when such comments are made.  Obviously, several posters have a misguided view of Detroit that needs to be amended.

There are tons of universities in Metro Detroit or close to the Detroit area but how do you figure Royal Oak has 225,000 people? I only see 60K do you mean the cities surrounding Royal oak too like Southfield, Livonia, Troy and Warren?  The largest suburb of Detroit is Warren at 140K. But Livonia and Sterling Heights have both over 100K.  Windsor and Toledo cities that are both next door (less then 10 mins) from the metro detroit area have a population of approximately 1.3 mil and those aren't included in the population.  As I said before you really can't compare Detroit and Birmingham, Detroit is more similar in size to Atlanta.  Matter of fact metro Atlanta just passed metro Detroit's core population a year or two ago (not including Ann Arbor/Flint/Toledo or Windsor which are all close enough to be a CSA).  Now in the past people in Detroit have been less inclined to go to college because they felt like they had those dream plant jobs that didn't require an education. Now that those are mostly gone education is a lot more important now in Michigan.  Also I think a lot of people who are educated in Michigan especially young people the first thing they do is leave Michigan because they don't want to be in a declining state anymore and want to try something new. Large numbers of people are leaving Detroit and Michigan in particular African Americans and going to places down south like Atlanta, Houston, and North Carolina.  There are a very large number of African Americans in Atlanta that are from Michigan.  Alabama has just recently gotten those relatively good paying manufacturing jobs in large numbers so before the only way to "get out" was to get an education at a college.  All you had to do in Michigan is know somebody or have a family member that worked at a plant and you had a job for life almost...until they started doing heavy layoffs... I know people that work at the plant in Michigan and they are convinced the best way you can make good money is through the plant not school which may have been true back in the day because this person didn't even graduate from high school yet he makes more than engineers I know in Alabama.  But thats probably where this perception of not having many colleges in Detroit comes from.

List of Metro Detroit Colleges  

  * Ave Maria College, Ypsilanti
    * Cleary University, Ann Arbor and Howell
    * College for Creative Studies, Detroit
    * Concordia University, Ann Arbor
    * Cranbrook Academy of Art, Bloomfield Hills
    * Davenport University, multiple Metro Detroit locations
    * Dorsey Business School,multiple Metro Detroit locations
    * Eastern Michigan University, Ypsilanti    * Henry Ford Community College, Dearborn
    * Kettering University, Flint
    * Lawrence Technological University, Southfield
    * Macomb Community College, Warren and Clinton Township
    * Madonna University, Livonia
    * Marygrove College, Detroit
    * Michigan State University, Troy
    * Monroe County Community College, Monroe
    * Mott Community College, Flint
    * Oakland Community College, multiple Oakland County locations
    * Oakland University, Rochester
    * Rochester College, Rochester Hills
    * Schoolcraft College, Livonia
    * Specs Howard School of Broadcast Arts, Southfield
    * Sacred Heart Major Seminary, Detroit
    * SS. Cyril and Methodius Seminary, Orchard Lake
    * University of Detroit Mercy, Detroit
    * University of Michigan, Ann Arbor
    * University of Michigan-Dearborn, Dearborn
    * University of Michigan-Flint, Flint
    * Walsh College, Troy
    * Washtenaw Community College, Ann Arbor
    * Wayne County Community College, multiple Wayne County locations
    * Wayne State University, Detroit

Edited by Huntsville_secede, 11 March 2008 - 02:18 PM.

[woob]

Huntsville_secede, on Mar 11 2008, 01:33 PM, said:

There are tons of universities in Metro Detroit or close to the Detroit area but how do you figure Royal Oak has 225,000 people? I only see 60K do you mean the cities surrounding Royal oak too like Southfield, Livonia, Troy and Warren?  The largest suburb of Detroit is Warren at 140K. But Livonia and Sterling Heights have both over 100K.  Windsor and Toledo cities that are both next door (less then 10 mins) from the metro detroit area have a population of approximately 1.3 mil and those aren't included in the population.  As I said before you really can't compare Detroit and Birmingham, Detroit is more similar in size to Atlanta.  Matter of fact metro Atlanta just passed metro Detroit's core population a year or two ago (not including Ann Arbor/Flint/Toledo or Windsor which are all close enough to be a CSA).  Now in the past people in Detroit have been less inclined to go to college because they felt like they had those dream plant jobs that didn't require an education. Now that those are mostly gone education is a lot more important now in Michigan.  Also I think a lot of people who are educated in Michigan especially young people the first thing they do is leave Michigan because they don't want to be in a declining state anymore and want to try something new. Large numbers of people are leaving Detroit and Michigan in particular African Americans and going to places down south like Atlanta, Houston, and North Carolina.  There are a very large number of African Americans in Atlanta that are from Michigan.  Alabama has just recently gotten those relatively good paying manufacturing jobs in large numbers so before the only way to "get out" was to get an education at a college.  All you had to do in Michigan is know somebody or have a family member that worked at a plant and you had a job for life almost...until they started doing heavy layoffs... I know people that work at the plant in Michigan and they are convinced the best way you can make good money is through the plant not school which may have been true back in the day because this person didn't even graduate from high school yet he makes more than engineers I know in Alabama.  But thats probably where this perception of not having many colleges in Detroit comes from.

List of Metro Detroit Colleges  

  * Ave Maria College, Ypsilanti
    * Cleary University, Ann Arbor and Howell
    * College for Creative Studies, Detroit
    * Concordia University, Ann Arbor
    * Cranbrook Academy of Art, Bloomfield Hills
    * Davenport University, multiple Metro Detroit locations
    * Dorsey Business School,multiple Metro Detroit locations
    * Eastern Michigan University, Ypsilanti    * Henry Ford Community College, Dearborn
    * Kettering University, Flint
    * Lawrence Technological University, Southfield
    * Macomb Community College, Warren and Clinton Township
    * Madonna University, Livonia
    * Marygrove College, Detroit
    * Michigan State University, Troy
    * Monroe County Community College, Monroe
    * Mott Community College, Flint
    * Oakland Community College, multiple Oakland County locations
    * Oakland University, Rochester
    * Rochester College, Rochester Hills
    * Schoolcraft College, Livonia
    * Specs Howard School of Broadcast Arts, Southfield
    * Sacred Heart Major Seminary, Detroit
    * SS. Cyril and Methodius Seminary, Orchard Lake
    * University of Detroit Mercy, Detroit
    * University of Michigan, Ann Arbor
    * University of Michigan-Dearborn, Dearborn
    * University of Michigan-Flint, Flint
    * Walsh College, Troy
    * Washtenaw Community College, Ann Arbor
    * Wayne County Community College, multiple Wayne County locations
    * Wayne State University, Detroit

ok new topic.. WILL LARRY LANGFORD end up in prison soon LOL

my brother called me today to tell me that Larry made it onto the front page of the wall street journal today... thats classic.. but you know what I think.. he won't get into a bit of trouble.. if he were white he'd be in prison in a second..

[hudkina]

The Royal Oak area includes several small communities that were mainly incorporated from the former Royal Oak TWP.  Royal Oak TWP still technically exists, but it is tiny compared to the original township.

The cities that make up the Royal Oak area are:

Royal Oak - 60,062 - 11.81 sq. mi. - 5,084.3 ppsm
Madison Heights - 31,101 - 7.16 sq. mi. - 4,342.5 ppsm
Oak Park - 29,793 - 5.02 sq. mi. - 5,933.6 ppsm
Ferndale - 22,105 - 3.88 sq. mi. - 5,699.4 ppsm
Birmingham - 19,291 - 4.78 sq. mi. - 4,039.5 ppsm
Hazel Park - 18,963 - 2.82 sq. mi. - 6,730.2 ppsm
Berkley - 15,531 - 2.62 sq. mi. - 5,927.0 ppsm
Clawson - 12,732 - 2.20 sq. mi. - 5,788.6 ppsm
Huntington Woods - 6,151 - 1.47 sq. mi. - 4,197.2 ppsm
Royal Oak TWP - 5,446 - 0.68 sq. mi. - 8,057.9 ppsm
Pleasant Ridge - 2,594 - 0.57 sq. mi. - 4,564.9 ppsm
TOTAL - 223,769 - 43.00 sq. mi. - 5,204.2 ppsm

Warren has the largest population if an individual suburb, but there are actually several suburban areas that are about the same size as Warren (such as Royal Oak) that have a larger population.  The Royal Oak area just happens to have the largest population of all the suburban "regions".

Another is Northern Downriver which includes: (Mostly incorporated from the former Ecorse TWP)
Lincoln Park - 40,008 - 5.85 sq. mi. - 6,836.7 ppsm
Southgate - 30,136 - 6.85 sq. mi. - 4,397.0 ppsm
Allen Park - 29,376 - 7.01 sq. mi. - 4,190.8 ppsm
Wyandotte - 28,006 - 5.30 sq. mi. - 5,279.5 ppsm
Ecorse - 11,229 - 2.69 sq. mi. - 4,176.2 ppsm
Melvindale - 10,735 - 2.77 sq. mi. - 3,877.9 ppsm
River Rouge - 9,917 - 2.67 sq. mi. - 3,714.9 ppsm
TOTAL -  159, 407 - 33.15 sq. mi. - 4,809.1 ppsm

Or the Westland area: (mostly incorporated from the former Nankin TWP)
Westland - 86,602 - 20.44 sq. mi. - 4,236.0 ppsm
Inkster - 30,115 - 6.26 sq. mi. - 4,809.4 ppsm
Garden City - 30,047 - 5.86 sq. mi. - 5,125.4 ppsm
Wayne - 19,051 - 6.02 sq. mi. - 3,166.0 ppsm
TOTAL - 165,815 - 38.59 sq. mi. - 4,297.3 ppsm

Or the St. Clair Shores area: (mostly incorporated from the former Erin TWP)
St. Clair Shores - 63,096 - 11.53 sq. mi. - 5,473.8 ppsm
Roseville - 48,129 - 9.81 sq. mi. - 4,906.9 ppsm
Eastpointe - 34,077 - 5.10 sq. mi. - 6,680.5 ppsm
Fraser - 15,297 - 4.19 sq. mi. - 3,653.5 ppsm
Lake TWP - 80 - 0.16 sq. mi. - 511.7 ppsm
TOTAL - 160,679 - 30.78 sq. mi. - 5,220.3 ppsm


Those are the major inner-ring suburb "regions".  Royal Oak is to the north along Woodward Ave, St. Clair Shores is to the east along Gratiot Ave, Westland is to the west along Michigan Ave, and Northern Downriver is to the south along Fort St.

That doesn't include many other inner-ring suburbs such as Dearborn, Dearborn Heights, Redford TWP, Hamtramck, Highland Park, Harper Woods and the Grosse Pointes.  Redford TWP is the remainder of the township that wasn't annexed by Detroit.  Dearborn Heights and Dearborn were formed from the remainder of Dearborn TWP and Springwells TWP that weren't annexed by Detroit.  Hamtramck is formed from the portions of Hamtramck TWP that weren't annexed by Detroit.  Highland Park was formed from the portions of Greenfield TWP that weren't annexed by Detroit.  Harper Woods was the remaining portion of Gratiot TWP that wasn't annexed by Detroit and the Grosse Pointes are the remaining portion of Grosse Pointe TWP that wasn't annexed by Detroit.

[kayman]

woob, on Mar 11 2008, 04:08 PM, said:

ok new topic.. WILL LARRY LANGFORD end up in prison soon LOL

my brother called me today to tell me that Larry made it onto the front page of the wall street journal today... thats classic.. but you know what I think.. he won't get into a bit of trouble.. if he were white he'd be in prison in a second..

Woob, that is a little too skewed point-of-view to consider because of Langford's skin color.  A criminal is a criminal regardless of his phenotype, also known as skin color.  In all honesty, the justice system might be more inclined to prosecute Langford because of him being corrupt black politician to prove a point.  

So to answer your question, no I doubt Langford is going to wind up in prison because aside from the suspicion surrounding the bond swipes while he was a County Commissioner for Jeffco there is no real evidence to indict him.  Aside from the fact that Langford is a convoluted, showboating moron who used race-baiting amongst the Birmingham electorate to get elected, there is no real reason to convict him beyond the "court of public opinion".

[MJLO]

I think it's self defeating to discuss metro Detroit demography in an Alabama forum.   I understand the frustration about people having a misconception about Detroit being a vast wasteland.  But you can't blame that on them,  Metro Detroits Image as an uneducated shop town with people climbing over each other to get out is media driven.  Go to the source, get the people who portray it to the masses that way to show it as it is,  just like any other major metropolitan area with the wealth, traffic, and tree lined blvd's.  It doesn't matter, we can't run out and correct every inaccurate statement made that makes Detroit look bad, when we do that I feel we make ourselves look bad.

[citykidd]

woob, on Mar 5 2008, 08:44 PM, said:

Is Birmingham becoming the Detroit of the south?

You must be referring to Birmingham's growing African-American population, similar to Detroit's large black population. Am I correct?

Edited by citykidd, 11 October 2008 - 11:46 AM.

[woob]

citykidd, on Oct 11 2008, 12:44 PM, said:

You must be referring to Birmingham's growing African-American population, similar to Detroit's large black population. Am I correct?

no I'm referring to the high crime rates and economic situation.. I work next to USS and they are hurting bad and so are we...  I assume Detroit is a big Union city... Birmingham is too.. I'm not part of a union but it seems wherever Unions are present companies struggle.. that's just my thought..