333 replies to this topic

[ncwebguy]

There is also this tommorow! :

ChiefJoJo, on Jun 17 2008, 10:46 AM, said:

The local options funding bill will have a reading in the House Transportation Committee wednesday, according to the N&O.  It's an interesting contrast on how the two regions, Charlotte and the Triangle, managed the transit funding issue.  Forget about the supposedly "bad" TTA rail plan, or the FTA's moving the goal posts.  The lack of viable transit service today is a direct result of the fact that the Triangle's poltiical and business leadership was MIA 10 years ago, and it appears many still do not get the message.  Let's hope it passes the committee and moves ahead.

Also, Triangle Transit is taking comments on it's Short Range Transit Plan, and will have a public hearing next week:

The Triangle Transit draft Short-Range Transit Plan has been submitted to the Triangle Transit Board of Trustees and is now available for public inspection at the Triangle Transit office between the hours of 9 a.m. and 5 p.m., Monday through Friday and on-line at http://www.triangletransit.org/srtp. The Triangle Transit office is located at 68 TW Alexander Drive, Suite 1000, Research Triangle Park, City of Durham, North Carolina.

The Triangle Transit Board of Trustees will hold a public hearing on the draft Short-Range Transit Plan at 1:00 p.m. on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 at the Triangle Transit office. Persons wishing to comment on the draft Short-Range Transit Plan may do so in person at the public hearing. This will be the final public hearing prior to the approval of the Short-Range Transit Plan.


There's some info in the SRTP on existing route performance (express routes are very high performing!), future route expansion (including park & rides), future installations (shelters, bike racks, info, etc).

I want to go to both, especially the TTA thing since I work right down the street!  But have a dentist appointment on Wednesday so I have to get work done early, and have to make up for lost time on Thursday, killing the McKimmon Center event.  Bad timing on my part, but I made the appointment months ago.

[ChiefJoJo]

The transit forum last night was a big success.  There were about 300 people (had to bring in more chairs and ran out of surveys), among them various elected officials and other local leaders--from the top of my head...

Raleigh:  Mary Ann Baldwin, Thomas Crowder, Russ Stephenson, James West
Wake Co:  Joe Bryan, Lindy Brown, Kenn Gardner, Harold Webb
Others:  Neal Hunt, NC Senate, Mayor of Wake Forest, and I noticed several candidates for elected office... Cary would have had a contingent, I am told, but for their council meeting last night... I'm sure there are some community leaders that I missed.

Here's the local media coverage:
WRAL story
video stream of the event in it's entirety
WTVD story
NBC 17 story

Carol Colleta (CEO for Cities) and Keith parker were particularly impressive.  John Hodges-Copple of the Triangle J COG made a short--but informative-- presentation that summarizes what led to the local STAC proposal.  Again, you can see it all on the WRAL link above.

[ChiefJoJo]

I referred to this on the initial post.  Triangle Transit begins new service from Wake Forest to Downtown Raleigh Monday, July 7.  They are also providing a cirulator service (530am-730pm M-F) within town.  Amazing.  W-F gets a real bus circulator before Raleigh!

[Jones133]

^ It was all in the leadership push to get it....something Raleigh could use more of I think.

[orulz]

So the Wake Forest bus route started on Monday. There was an article in the N&O on Tuesday profiling a couple of the riders and their reasons for riding.

Has anyone here rode the WF bus yet? I wonder how the ridership is.

[foxymohommed]

orulz, on Jul 9 2008, 09:37 AM, said:

So the Wake Forest bus route started on Monday. There was an article in the N&O on Tuesday profiling a couple of the riders and their reasons for riding.

Has anyone here rode the WF bus yet? I wonder how the ridership is.

not yet but i plan on riding as soon as i dust off my bike and get it in working order.  (my office is still about 1mile from the closest bus stop)

[orulz]

I previously posted this in the North Carolina Intercity Transit thread, but since this is centered around the triangle, I'll post it here too.

Here is a map courtesy of a poster at orangepolitics.org of the service that NCRR is studying for the Triangle and Triad areas:


There are 4 lines under consideration:
Raleigh-Greensboro
Goldsboro-University Station (State University Railroad junction near Hillsborough)
University Station-Carrboro
Burlington-West Greensboro (and beyond)

We have to remember, though, that this is just NCRR deciding on their own "this is what we want to study." They are determining the infrastructure needs and therefore the cost to get this done in terms of double track, sidings, and crossovers. No study to date has been done to determine if this is actually the best or most efficient way of serving commuter travel needs in the region, and nobody has talked at all about funding yet either. NCRR does have some revenue with which to improve their physical plant as they see fit, but nowhere near enough to implement a bold plan like this. Presumably this would be contingent on local, state, and perhaps some federal money as well.

[transitman]

N&O reports Wake Forest buses are off to a quick start.

Quote

The Wake Forest-Raleigh Express had 96 riders on Monday and 139 on Tuesday.

The Wake Forest-Wakefield Loop had 70 riders on Monday and 124 on Tuesday.

Definitely good news.

[orulz]

I'm somewhat curious why the buses follow Atlantic into town rather than staying on Capital. Are travel times on Atlantic better? That might be the case, because there is a lot less commercial development on Atlantic (presumably due to the lack of an interchange at I-440.)

CATs also has no service on Atlantic, and Atlantic is closer to the route the north Raleigh rail line will take, but then again the express bus doesn't stop anywhere along Atlantic so it's not like they're trying to build a ridership base or fill in the gaps in the CAT network.

[Gard]

orulz, on Jul 9 2008, 06:38 PM, said:

I'm somewhat curious why the buses follow Atlantic into town rather than staying on Capital. Are travel times on Atlantic better? That might be the case, because there is a lot less commercial development on Atlantic (presumably due to the lack of an interchange at I-440.)

CATs also has no service on Atlantic, and Atlantic is closer to the route the north Raleigh rail line will take, but then again the express bus doesn't stop anywhere along Atlantic so it's not like they're trying to build a ridership base or fill in the gaps in the CAT network.

  I would assume its because they can get to DTR faster via Atlantic than Capital.  Capital is absolutely ridicioulus in the morning (I know from driving it everyday) and sometimes the light you are waiting for will turn green at least once before you get to pass it.  I usually spend about 20 minutes per 3 miles on Capital on many days.

[ChiefJoJo]

Here's a link to my semi-fantasy transit plan I've been working on for a while off and on in my free time since the STAC started getting into their more detailed plans last fall.  I say semi-fantasy because--in my semi-educated opinion--I think all of this could be built... eventually...2050?  It expands the STAC plan in a more comprehensive network with rail service, so you can see how the region could be connected more seamlessly.  It builds on the STAC plan for the Chapel Hill to Durham LRT (light blue) and Durham to Raleigh DMU lines (red), but adds on...

• an extended Red Line up to Wake Forest.  The STAC looked at that extent, but reduced the scope due to cost.  There's already a lot of commuters making this trip now on US1.
  
• the circulator routes the STAC released in their initial plan for Chapel Hill, Durham and Raleigh.  In my plan, they are all streetcars, but I assumed the RTP and Cary are buses (not shown).  These make a number of important intra-city connections and would help stimulate redevelopment in some areas (parcels shown in light red).
  
• a Purple Line, which would extend from downtown Apex to Cary to DT Raleigh out to Zebulon.  This would run on the CSX corridor from Apex, but then run together on the new TTA tracks for the Red Line until north of the Govt Center station in Raleigh where it would veer off on the NS corridor on new tracks.  The STAC looked at this, but not in much detail (cost/demand).
  
• the proposed NCRR Commuter Rail (Silver Line) route from Burlington & points west to Goldsboro (Historic Union Station), plus a spur line from Burlington over to Carolina North and Carrboro at Main St.  The main line would run on shared freight tracks on the NCRR and stop at some of the same locations as the Red Line for transfers to other lines, buses, streetcars (DT Durham, RTP, Cary, NCSU, DT Raleigh), and high-speed rail in some places (DT Durham, Cary, DT Raleigh).
  
• the Pink Line to RDU, which is on the STAC Plan, but not very well defined.  I'm calling for a BRT line from the Triangle Metro Center to RDU.
  
• finally a Midtown LRT (Black Line) in Raleigh.  This is the only new concept--at least I've never seen it before.  It would start at Crabtree, follow I-440 to North Hills, over to near St. Albans Dr and down to Duke Raleigh Hospital.... then down to the old Alcatel site (TOD), and over to a new dual transit station for both the Red Line & Black Line at Whitaker Mill and Atlantic Ave (area with tones of redev potential).... down to the reclaimed NS Glenwood Yard near Five Points, and back down the NS line to Glenwood South & the MTC downtown at the Boylan Wye.  I'd always thought tying in Crabtree & North Hills ought to be done somehow (since they're both major centers) and this seems like the best way.  When you add in the hospital, Alcatel site, Atlantic warehouses, and near Five Points, you can see the potential in tying all those areas together.  It could be extended out to Pleasant Valley too.

Of course, I'm assuming there'd be fantastic bus service connecting everything together.  Also, the red triangles are the 2 major multimodal centers in Durham and Raleigh, and the large blue bus symbols are secondary transit centers connecting to at least 2 rapid transit lines.  I went a little nuts with all the redevelopment parcels, but if you add it up, you can really get a sense of how much underused land could be redeveloped for some of those 1M+ people who are moving here.

I thought about connecting to Fuquay-Varina via commuter rail, but there's not much in between so they get a bus .  I considered extending the Black Line south to the convention center or over to Dix, but there's not too many other "centers" to hit other than maybe Garner, and they already have CR.  What did I miss?

[phoenixnc]

ChiefJoJo, your plan is amazing. I especially like the idea of the black line around the beltline, because it ties in places that would not be served. It would make the area feel like a great urban area... assuming anything like it gets built. Would it be rail? monorail?

Anyway, have you tried to submit your ideas to whoever plans this stuff? Seriously, it's great.

[PAVANC]

How about extending the black line up Glennwood to the Airport and Briar Creek and then tie into the RTP North Station.  Or you could extend the black line around to Rex Hospital to the Art Museum to the Vet School/Stadium and tie into the Fairgrounds Station.

[ChiefJoJo]

PAVANC, on Jul 28 2008, 05:24 PM, said:

How about extending the black line up Glenwood to the Airport and Briar Creek and then tie into the RTP North Station.  Or you could extend the black line around to Rex Hospital to the Art Museum to the Vet School/Stadium and tie into the Fairgrounds Station.

I considered extending it up as far as Pleasant Valley SC.  I think that could make sense, but US 70 & LRT is tricky.  Clearly, there is a lot of "pull" from Brier Creek and RTP, but both are difficult to serve by transit as current formed, and LRT is mostly designed for closely spaced stations (1/2-2 miles apart).  If there are long gaps, it might be a waste of money to extend it that far... not to mention Umstead and the steep grades out there.  Tying the black line into West Raleigh might work, but only very long term IMO.  It could be the first loop light rail line!   My thought was to let the Red Line be the regional E-W spine and build eveything off that, and if the STAC plan is implemented, the regional rail line will be probably be more than adequate as the spine which ties the region together.  Of course, the great thing about rail is that when ridership peaks, just add more vehicles and you've got plenty of extra capacity.

I didn't intend on this, but way down the road, you could imagine Raleigh being a bit like Dallas is on the DART long range plan.  In that analogy, the Texas Railway Express (TRE) connects Dallas to Fort Worth like Raleigh would be connected to Durham.  Notice DART TRE also has an airport link, but it's not directly connected by rail (only by a free shuttle), like RDU would be in the STAC plan.

[Jones133]

Mods, I can't seem to find the thread with comments about bus shelter requirements in Raleigh (CAT thread is closed) but wanted to add a thought that occurred to me while driving down Hillsborough St just now. Setting a standard of 10 for a bench and 25 for a shelter is a very reactionary approach to bus system use. The system should study development...work with the planning folks and determine where they want/have/need dense development and go ahead and put in shelter now.......not like the never used shelters along Centennial Pkwy  where there was no development at all,  but I know at least one reason I don't ride is the waiting areas suck real bad. I know places where if a shelter was put in people  would gravitate there from other nearby stops perhaps reducing the number of stops some....I see people at Capital Brentwood everyday, I know it gets 20 riders a day...so does Capital north bound at  Highwoods......the cost of those would easily be covered by an increase in ridership I believe.....be proactive about this system......it was plain horrible to see that Charlotte has about 5 times the number of buses we do in the paper this weekend.

[Cary NC]

The problem I see with the two stops in Cary is the lack of available parking. I know Charlotte is dealing with that problem six months into their one route. There is no way DT cary would make sense unless they build a parking deck that would allow 200-300 cars. The NW Cary Pkwy would have to house 500-600 cars. We are talking about a town that has 130,000 and will have close to 150,000 by the time this things gets rolling. No parking creates a lot of unwanted problems and additional manpower to police the no parking zones.

[ChiefJoJo]

Quote

The system should study development...work with the planning folks and determine where they want/have/need dense development and go ahead and put in shelter now....

I agree.  Would it be something if we required developers to build both (1) bike racks and (2) transit shelters in turn for development approval?  We do it for roads, water and sewer, so the least we could do is tell them to add in some multimodal amenities... maybe in exchange for reduced or eliminated parking requirements.  Asphalt pavement and concrete costs a whole lot more than a couple of racks and some benches.  I still say we should allow advertising to pay for adding benches, but there seems to be obstacles with DOT there.

Cary NC, on Aug 5 2008, 10:18 PM, said:

The problem I see with the two stops in Cary is the lack of available parking. I know Charlotte is dealing with that problem six months into their one route. There is no way DT cary would make sense unless they build a parking deck that would allow 200-300 cars. The NW Cary Pkwy would have to house 500-600 cars. We are talking about a town that has 130,000 and will have close to 150,000 by the time this things gets rolling. No parking creates a lot of unwanted problems and additional manpower to police the no parking zones.

I have to disagree with you.  Charlotte has smartly taken the view that building rapid transit lines--be it LRT, BRT, commuter rail, etc--is mostly about changing land use.  As a result, many of the stations on the Lynx LRT do not allow any park and ride lots.  They want to encourage more development, not more parking lots.  To that end in the Triangle, it would not make sense to put up any additional public parking in downtown Cary, as that would be the logical place to encourage more dense development that rapid transit is meant to support.  That is the whole point.  It might make sense to have some parking available in NW Cary, but downtown should not have any.  Downtown Cary is one of the few places in town where a discernable, walkable grid exists, but guess what?  There's zero condos and very few offices.  If you add rapid transit with quick reliable access to RTP, Downtown Raleigh and Downtown Durham, all of a sudden you have a new market for development.

We have to change the paradigm such that instead of building more obsolete roads or trying to imagine how transit could fit into a car-centric lifestyle, we begin to imagine how transit and land use could create new living, employment and travel markets 'off the grid,' free and clear of auto-dependency.

[ChiefJoJo]

There's a free transit documentary being shown next week at the Colony Theater at Six Forks and Millbrook.  Wed, August 27 @ 7pm.  "Taken for a Ride"

IMDB info & poster:

[vitaviatic]

Here is the aforementioned (more like threatened) link to this interesting study. I would say that it is pretty accurate.

United States of Mind, Wall Street Journal 09/23/08

I call your attention to the darker blue states on the Openness chart. What you are looking at with these lower numbered (higher score) states, is virtually a roll-call list of states with activist rail transit systems. The only two states in the same quintile as NC that have implemented rail systems -- Arizona (which scored a couple of points better, and Minnesota, which surprisingly scored 7 points worse). Those two states are far more urbanized than NC, so the trick there is to keep transit solutions as regional as possible, and span the benefit as far out as you can. In this case, bigger really would be better.

No how in Hades South Carolina came in with a 26 on this scale, I don't know. But if you look around, you see NC framed by states with either commuter rail, or heavy rail systems, or both. It really should not be this hard.

No point here. Just interesting stuff. Uh, buh, bye...

Edited by vitaviatic, 23 September 2008 - 01:46 PM.

[ChiefJoJo]

Interesting link.  I would say that while NC as a whole might not be as open as we'd like, the Triangle (at least the 3 counties) is probably the most progressive part of the state, and with every new resident from other parts of the country and world, the area changes (mostly) for the better.

FYI, the transit thread was renamed because the new "vision" represents the first new collaborately-developed, regional plan in a decade, replacing the old TTA project.  The "vision" aspect is only technicality, as there is a saying: 'If you can't pay for it, you don't have a plan.'

The lack of activity in this topic is not a reflection of the work being done outside of cyberspace.  There are a lot efforts underway to make transit a reality here.  It just takes time, and we have to make it through the election cycle and then to the next general assembly session to see what happens.  Rest assured that there will be a lot of interest in making sure that this region (and hopefully the Triad, and maybe others) will gain the opportunity to get a viable transit system going ASAP.

On that note, everyone should make sure and sign this petition to support the STAC plan (shown here).