8 replies to this topic

[beeninAL]

Hi all,

I’m interested in the feasibility of high speed rail in the U.S., particularly for long distances. I was looking at Amtrak’s California Zephyr as an example to talk about. What would it take to convert that route to high speed rail? More than one day of train travel for that distance seems far too long, especially since I would think at 200 mph maybe even 125 mph the length of time would be greatly reduced and therefore make it competitive with air travel. True, a great part of train travel in the U.S. is scenic viewing but even with that there is surely a better way to cater to both scenery and practicality.

I know that many here are likely very knowledgeable about technicals of transportation, and so I have a few questions about high speed rail and the California Zephyr route in particular.

From reading http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/Amtrak-article-t31950.html and http://www.urbanplan...-US-t33046.html, I’ve determined a few things:

1) The companies that own these tracks are likely not interested in converting the tracks to HSR.

2) Currently, Amtrak has to yield to freight traffic which can result in many delays and late arrival times.

3) A high speed rail line of any sort may be better off with its own tracks. An underutilized long distance passenger rail line with its own tracks would surely prove disastrous, however, and an eyesore to boot.

4) I’m pretty sure that someone made a great analogy somewhere that the way passenger rail service stands in the U.S. now, it’d be as if freight airlines controlled all the airspace and there was only one passenger airline in the entire U.S.

5) Some who have traveled by rail say they like it better than air travel, as far as service and not getting stuck at the airport is concerned. If a hotel is right by the railroad station in just a minute or so’s walk, I can also see how it would be convenient to hang out at the hotel while you’re waiting and board the train when it arrives (even if it’s a couple hours late).

And here are the questions I have to the transportation/rail buffs:

1) If electrified, what is the maximum speed possible along the California Zephyr route? Would the entire route then take only about 16 hours (my calculation, likely not accurate)?

2) How would the current tracks be converted to have an even greater speed? Is it as simple as modifying the tracks and adding overhead wires, or would they have to be torn out and built anew?

3) In either the above scenarios where the passenger train goes faster, would it be then economical for the freight companies to finally yield ROW to the passenger trains?

4) Do any of the railroad companies even transport mail anymore? Maybe parcels, at least?

5) Can the California Zephyr route be made into high speed without sacrificing what may be one of its main draws, viewing the scenery as you go along?

6) Does this route have a lot of ridership? I saw a Youtube clip of a portion of the train from the passenger’s vantage point, and the train itself seemed pretty long. Additionally, I do believe when I looked for the fares that the sleepers may have been completely booked.

I was hoping to post a Youtube comparison between a portion of the California Zephyr route and one from Switzerland (similar scenery, I found), to see the speed differences and how it might affect viewing scenery, but I don’t think I found the Swiss video that I had looked at earlier that prompted this post. Let me then ask: What is the speed of the Spitz to Interlaken train in comparison with much of the California Zephyr route?

It’s unfortunate that train travel isn’t as widespread in the U.S. as it is elsewhere. Even though I have the opportunity to go by Amtrak if I really wanted to, I researched it and I was slightly put off. As far as I go, I’d have to go by bus first. Then the train ride along the Crescent to some place is about as fast (and in some cases about the same price) as it would be by bus to begin with. And sadly, if I were to say FLY from here to Portland, Maine it’s cheaper than going from here to Boston. The train ride from Boston to Portland isn’t much, but flying to Boston instead of Portland directly seemed to be about double the price.

Tourism would be so much easier with more mass transit options! It can be really dangerous to drive around in one’s car, utterly lost.

[MikesLogic]

Lots of good questions there, I don't have the answers though. I would like to say I believe one of the biggest things holding back high-speed rail in the US is our antiquated regulations on train designs. For instance the high-speed trains running in Europe are not legal here in the US.

[InTheZ0ne4823]

I didn't know that Mike.  Do you know what exactly it is that makes it illegal in the US??

[monsoon]

I will attempt to answer your questions based on my experience with riding the various Shinkasen lines in Japan along with other research that I have done.  

• Forgetting exotic tech like Maglev, the practical limit seems to be around 300 kph or 185-190 mph.  This would be for electrified EMU style trains of the most advanced type running on dedicated ROW.
  
• HSR of the type able to handle what I posted in bullet #1 need to be on dedicated track.  Track conversion of existing freight lines usually results in lower speeds due to the curves in the track.  The original Shinkansen between Tokyo and Kyoto had to operate at reduced speeds between Tokyo and Yokohama due to this factor.  Noise pollution was another.  Most of the newer systems, such as subsequent Shankansen and european lines operate on newly built dedicated tracks.  It requires a considerable national investment.
  
• HSR EMUs should not share the same tracks with freight trains.
  
• I am not sure if the USPS uses trains for mail delivery.  Seems to me they either use trucks or planes.
  
• As far as viewing scenery, even at 187 mph it's not an issue.  Most scenery is far enough away to enjoy at these speeds.
  
• I suggest looking for a Japanese youtube of the Tokaido line as it passes Mt. Fuji.  The current state of the art Shinkansen is the N700 Series.

Video of N700.  Note the older 700 series that pulls in beside it before it takes off.  You can notice the immense size and power  of these trains as it pulls out of the station.

[InTheZ0ne4823]

Thanks monsoon for the info!!

[cloudship]

It's hard to pinpoint an exact regulation that makes them illegal, but it has mostly to do with the weight and structural integrity of the trains themselves. American railroad regulations are biased towards heavy freight trains - passenger trains must be able to withstand collisions with heavy freight trains with little structural deformation. This means that it is next to impossible to make lightweight, efficient high speed trains for the US. Acela, which is really based on European designs, had to be significantly strengthened, this added so much weight that it was impossible to make it go as fast as trains in Europe do.

[MrFSS]

If you are really interested in HSR visit Amtrak Unlimited Forum for lots of discussion on the topic.

[go_vertical]

monsoon, on Jun 9 2009, 01:32 PM, said:

[*]I am not sure if the USPS uses trains for mail delivery.  Seems to me they either use trucks or planes.

I am not sure about USPS, but UPS does use what is referred to as TOFC (Trailer on Flat Car).  Basically, some of the trailers that you see on the interstate can be dislodged from it's subframe and placed on a flat railcar two high.  Many cross country packages are transported this way.

[Neo]

go_vertical, on Aug 16 2009, 04:04 AM, said:

I am not sure about USPS, but UPS does use what is referred to as TOFC (Trailer on Flat Car).  Basically, some of the trailers that you see on the interstate can be dislodged from it's subframe and placed on a flat railcar two high.  Many cross country packages are transported this way.

In the "postal facts" section on the USPS site, they state that they use the following methods for mail transportation:

"planes, trains, trucks, cars, boats, ferries, helicopters, subways, float planes, hovercrafts, T-3s, street cars, mules, bicycles and human feet"

You can find this here: http://www.usps.com/...postalfacts.htm