71 replies to this topic

[Cadeho]

So that we wouldn't highjack the yet to be renamed Short Pump thread,  I'll continue whatever road conversations here. Anyone with any interesting historical facts about any of our roads and streets please post them.

Answering Tommy's question about how Pouncy Tract intersected Three Chopt.

Broad (originially Deep Run Turnpike) used to end at Three Chopt where the light for John Rolfe Parkway is. Three Chopt took a bend in front of Victory Nissan and ran beside its property line. It's right next to Victory where Pouncy Tract split from Three Chopt. Not that long ago, Pouncy Tract was realigned to meet up with Pump. Pump didn't exist in the days when Three Chopt was the main road to Charlottesville. Before the realignment, Pouncy Tract cut across where the 7-Eleven property. The utility wires still mark the route and since Broad didn't exist at that point, Pouncy tract met up with what is now Old Three Chopt right at where it ends now.

From what I can speculate as I have't seen a detailed old map of the area, Across from Old Three Chopt, the road continued roughly along the driveway into the shopping center and I believe the old road's route met up with the current Broad street at Lauderdale and continuted until it turned through the Bank of Richmond property to meet up with the other Old Three Chopt Rd which is a gravelled private road now. The route hovered north of present Broad and there are houses back there that are still on the path. Traces of the road can be seen on aerial shots of the area espcially just east of 288. In Goochland there is another Old Three Chopt that ends at Ashland Rd. I haven't seen any Goochland maps to see how it went north of Broad to meet up with where Manakin Rd branches off of Broad. Take a ride through Goochland on Broad and see how many time Three Chopt crosses the road. Some portions of the road have been renamed.

Continuing after Ich4 posted a study from VDOT, The Route of the Three Notch'd Road.

I tried to follow the path past Charlottesville but it may be tricky. I don't know if it ended at Afton or if it continued through Waynesboro and Staunton. The last Three Notched Road by name I could find was in Crozet.

I believe Manakin Road south of Broad, Fairground Road, Hawk town Rd, Maidens Rd, a part of Roundabout Rd, grace Johnson Rd, Mallory Rd, Baybee Rd, Zion Rd, Sunny Field Ln, and Keswick Rd are renamed sections on the way to Charlottesville.

Through Charlottesville, possibly High St is a section. There is a marker there that says W. Main and University Ave are. I would say it continued up Ivy Rd with possible other routes like Morgantown Rd. Possibly past Crozet Jarman's Gap/Greenwood Rd seems to work and possibly parts of Rockfish Gap Turnpike.

I'll need to reread that VDOT study again to see if any of those names come up.

Burt, I can find out if any of those places are still standing. Cool weather is my peak picture-taking time. I am wondering if Trevor ever checks his e-mail. I have not heard back from him yet!  Do I have to track him down to tell him I want to help trace Three Chopt also?

Other roads that have me fascinated, Westham Road/Scuffletown Road, River Rd, Williamsburg Rd, Meadowbridge Rd, Old Coal Pit Road (which I want to know did it have a different path than the Deep Run Turnpike which replaced it), Warwick Rd, Mountain Rd, and even Chamberlayne. I hope to research more and find more...

Edited by Cadeho, 25 August 2008 - 03:35 PM.

[Cadeho]

To help visualize.


Red = Three Chopt
Blue = Pouncy Tract
Purple = Deep Run Tnpk


This is what I can gather is the route of Three Chopt through Short Pump. I now am kind of iffy about the straight path in front of the mall.

Map courtesy of Henrico County... no I'm not THAT good... pretty close though.

Edited by Cadeho, 25 August 2008 - 09:40 AM.

[blake_p]

This group http://www.threenotchedtrail.com/ is trying to recreate the trail from Charlottesville to the Blue Ridge.

[Cadeho]

I saw their site but it wouldn't load for me at home.  I'd LOVE it if they're able to connect this trail with the Va Capital Trail.  What a great feature for our stretch of Va.

Edited by Cadeho, 25 August 2008 - 09:44 AM.

[burt]

Cam, do you think we should include rail roads in this thread?  We've talked elsewhere about them; i.e., the routes from 26th and P Streets toward the Pamunkey River and the Highland Springs line, as well as the Ashland line from Broad and Laurel.

Does Creighton (spelling?) Road in northeastern Metro have historical significance?  And how about Rt. 150 near Seven Pines?

[lch4]

burt, on Aug 25 2008, 11:29 AM, said:

Cam, do you think we should include rail roads in this thread?  We've talked elsewhere about them; i.e., the routes from 26th and P Streets toward the Pamunkey River and the Highland Springs line, as well as the Ashland line from Broad and Laurel.

Does Creighton (spelling?) Road in northeastern Metro have historical significance?  And how about Rt. 150 near Seven Pines?

I like this idea.  Burt, Creighton Road is old...I read an account somewhere that Robert E. Lee in his postwar life went to visit friends along the Pamunkey and traveled down Creighton Road.  I work on Creighton right at 295, it certainly is possible.  Some people say that Creighton Road in Hanover is the old New Bridge Road, but I disagree with that.  New Bridge Road, according to maps, separated Selwyn Farm and Powhite Farm (home to Dr. Gaines i.e. Gaines Mill) and Creighton Road comes in between Selwyn and...I think...Fairfield which is where the current High Point Farms Subdivison is here off Creighton. I'm not 100% about the location of Fairfield except that it was to the left of Creighton if you're traveling east.

That old car line from the city out to Cold Harbor and Pamunkey still facsinates me.  When I read up on the Ashland Line I finally understood why there is a random bridge overpass behind St. Joseph's Villa.  To allow people to cross over the car line tracks.

[Cadeho]

Yes, Creighton was there at least during the Civil War. A star fort was on it near its end at Nine Mile. From maps I've seen, I hadn't seen Creighton cross the Chickahominy until later. It seemed to have dead ended behind where St. Paul's Bapt is now where on Henrico's map Old Creighton is still shown. I have wondered many many times where New Bridge actually crossed the river. On one map it seems like the road split from what is Nine Mile at about Bridge Av in Highland Springs. But on the Hanover side, is there any evidence of a road?

One thing I do like about Creighton as it crossed the river, there is an old path where you can see the concrete supports on the banks. When I was 8, I rode my bike up Creighton before there was any real traffic. No subdivisions had been built and it was very quiet until I got spooked when a dump truck came from nowhere. I made my way back home fast.

lch if you haven't seen, I have a thread at RCW about the Richmond & Rappahannock Ricver Railway with pics and maps. I wish henrico would make a bike trail out of it but in one place a new subdivision Cedar Run has put the old path in some yet to be built houses front yards. A bike route can still be done and it would be great to have it follow the RRRR to the Pamunkey.

[lch4]

Cadeho, on Aug 25 2008, 04:34 PM, said:

Yes, Creighton was there at least during the Civil War. A star fort was on it near its end at Nine Mile. From maps I've seen, I hadn't seen Creighton cross the Chickahominy until later. It seemed to have dead ended behind where St. Paul's Bapt is now where on Henrico's map Old Creighton is still shown. I have wondered many many times where New Bridge actually crossed the river. On one map it seems like the road split from what is Nine Mile at about Bridge Av in Highland Springs. But on the Hanover side, is there any evidence of a road?

One thing I do like about Creighton as it crossed the river, there is an old path where you can see the concrete supports on the banks. When I was 8, I rode my bike up Creighton before there was any real traffic. No subdivisions had been built and it was very quiet until I got spooked when a dump truck came from nowhere. I made my way back home fast.

lch if you haven't seen, I have a thread at RCW about the Richmond & Rappahannock Ricver Railway with pics and maps. I wish henrico would make a bike trail out of it but in one place a new subdivision Cedar Run has put the old path in some yet to be built houses front yards. A bike route can still be done and it would be great to have it follow the RRRR to the Pamunkey.

A gentlemen who showed me around Mechanicsville years ago told me that where the private road Scott Carter Lane meets Cold Harbor is where New Bridge Road used to be.  In fact he said that this Scott Carter Lane was New Bridge Road.  However, he said New Bridge Road crossed Cold Harbor and went on in someway to meet Mechanicsville Pike, which back then was called Old Church Road.

I trust his statements because he's an elderly gentleman who grew up in Cold Harbor and his grandfather was a child during the Civil War around here and recounted stories to him about the area, who lived where and what went on.

As many troops that moved across New Bridge Road during the war, you'd think they're be some evidence like indentations in the ground or something, but I haven't noticed any.  They tell me that this whole area of Hanover was cleared of trees and you could stand at Cold Harbor Road and look down and see the Chickahominy River.

[Cadeho]

Great stuff lch I'm going to have to check that. Nothing I love better than driving our streets and roads. There's always so much to learn and so much you may miss that you hadn't seen before.

I was thinking, if the Three Notch Trail people want to connect or make their way to Richmond.. they'd better try to get the trail protected now because I am sure some developer who cares nothing about history or our heritage will come along and make it a parking lot to something.

I also wish they'd turn the Ashland route into a bike trail too. You can follow it using satellite pics. I had always wondered what it was until Burt came to the rescue.

One road I forgot about that's definitely been chopped and partially erased is Telegraph Road. Virginia Center Commons sits on a part of it and just north of the Chickahominy I haven't figured out how it ran. It seems to have zig-zagged. Chamberlayne Ave and Road also leaves me wondering what existed before they built Chamberlayne as a part of the northern suburbs. The same with Mechanicsville. I now it was built between the village and Richmond and that is a very straight turnpike, but after the crossroads of Cold Harbor/Atlee/Shady Grove, is that where Old Church Rd began?

Oh and one more thing... has anyone else noticed this curve that look like it was probably roadway at the light of Lee Davis and Cold Harbor to the right where Cold Harbor continues?

[lch4]

Cadeho, on Aug 26 2008, 12:42 AM, said:

Great stuff lch I'm going to have to check that. Nothing I love better than driving our streets and roads. There's always so much to learn and so much you may miss that you hadn't seen before.

I was thinking, if the Three Notch Trail people want to connect or make their way to Richmond.. they'd better try to get the trail protected now because I am sure some developer who cares nothing about history or our heritage will come along and make it a parking lot to something.

I also wish they'd turn the Ashland route into a bike trail too. You can follow it using satellite pics. I had always wondered what it was until Burt came to the rescue.

One road I forgot about that's definitely been chopped and partially erased is Telegraph Road. Virginia Center Commons sits on a part of it and just north of the Chickahominy I haven't figured out how it ran. It seems to have zig-zagged. Chamberlayne Ave and Road also leaves me wondering what existed before they built Chamberlayne as a part of the northern suburbs. The same with Mechanicsville. I now it was built between the village and Richmond and that is a very straight turnpike, but after the crossroads of Cold Harbor/Atlee/Shady Grove, is that where Old Church Rd began?

Oh and one more thing... has anyone else noticed this curve that look like it was probably roadway at the light of Lee Davis and Cold Harbor to the right where Cold Harbor continues?

Hanover County and the town of Ashland has about a mile of the old car line as a hiking/bike/horse trail.  Ashland Trolley Park or something like that is what it is called.

I have an 1867 map of the Cold Harbor area and from what I can tell on this map Mechanicsville Pike changed to Old Church Road at the village.  It has the same alignment as the modern US 360.  This map tracks New Bridge Road east of Cold Harbor Road pretty much on an alignment as Creighton Road runs east of Cold Harbor Road.  It then intersects Walnut Grove Road where Creighton now does and runs similar to Creighton Parkway.  If I read this right.

The intersection of Lee-Davis/Walnut Grove/Cold Harbor is like that because at one time there was no light there and it was structured similar to the intersection of Willis Church Rd (VA-156) and New Market Rd (VA-5) in Varina.  If you were driving south on 156 you just kinda did a merge to the right there at the Lee-Davis/Walnut Grove intersection to continue on 156.  That Computer Doctor store was Barr's Store and was a convenience store until about 10 years ago.  I remember it was an Amoco Station.

and check out Bermuda Hundred Road in Chester, it was the main drag until they built VA-10.  South of 10 it's called Old Bermuda Hundred Road and north of 10 it's called Meadowville Road for a bit then just Bermuda Hundred Road and it does take you to Bermuda Hundred which was a very active port in days gone by. I-295 does cut it in two, so you'll have to detour down 10 to Enon Church Road and then back up to Bermuda Hundred.  A railroad even terminated there that came from Farmville.

I learned a few months back that even Beach Road in Chesterfield has been built over a former rail line.  The road paralled the railroad and when they took up the tracks, the state came in and put the road over it because railroad bed was straighter.  The visitor's center at Pocahontas State Park is one of the old stations along the route.

I'd say 301 in Hanover was there and was called Hanover Courthouse Road as it is north of Hanover High School.  I know they fought there in the Civil War and the Washington-Rochambeau Route runs on it, so perhaps it dates at least that far back.

[burt]

My brain is a little fuzzy, but I think Telegraph Road intersects US1 at an angle from the northeast.  The junction in my long ago youth was called Solomon's Store.  If you drive down Telegraph Road, you'll come to a monument to someone (Confederate?) sitting out there in the middle of nothing.  Wasn't Telegraph Road the old Washington Highway?

Roads in and around the village of Studley in Hanover are quite interesting.

Speaking of rails, the ghostly town of Claremont off Route 10 via Sussex County Highway 613 is a former port on the south bank of the James River.  It was the railhead  connecting to steamers plying the river.  Just upstream off of Route 10 via Prince George County Highway 611 is Brandon Plantation.  The beautiful mansion is privately owned, but its gardens stretching to the James are open for visitation.

There are plenty of scenic and historic highways in Central Virginia.

[lch4]

burt, on Aug 26 2008, 10:31 AM, said:

My brain is a little fuzzy, but I think Telegraph Road intersects US1 at an angle from the northeast.  The junction in my long ago youth was called Solomon's Store.  If you drive down Telegraph Road, you'll come to a monument to someone (Confederate?) sitting out there in the middle of nothing.  Wasn't Telegraph Road the old Washington Highway?

Roads in and around the village of Studley in Hanover are quite interesting.

Speaking of rails, the ghostly town of Claremont off Route 10 via Sussex County Highway 613 is a former port on the south bank of the James River.  It was the railhead  connecting to steamers plying the river.  Just upstream off of Route 10 via Prince George County Highway 611 is Brandon Plantation.  The beautiful mansion is privately owned, but its gardens stretching to the James are open for visitation.

There are plenty of scenic and historic highways in Central Virginia.

Burt, that's interesting you mention Claremont because I saw it on an old map of the Southern Railway and it had a line going up to Claremont.

Studley is an interesting place...they even have their own zip code (23162) nestled in the middle of Mechanicsville 23116.

[burt]

lch4, on Aug 26 2008, 12:04 PM, said:

Burt, that's interesting you mention Claremont because I saw it on an old map of the Southern Railway and it had a line going up to Claremont.

Studley is an interesting place...they even have their own zip code (23162) nestled in the middle of Mechanicsville 23116.

Ich4, if you recall, where did the Southern line to Claremont originate?

It's a kinda spooky little town.  The time I drove through, there was not a soul in view.

[lch4]

burt, on Aug 26 2008, 12:31 PM, said:

Ich4, if you recall, where did the Southern line to Claremont originate?

It's a kinda spooky little town.  The time I drove through, there was not a soul in view.

The map, which you can view at the wikipedia entry for the Southern Railway (see the 1921 map), has it originate at a place called James River JCT. which is east of Emporia.

[Cadeho]

This is how I waste gas... well to others. Who needs a vacation when there's so much to explore here. Chesterfield is a huge blank slate to me with a few well travelled paths for me. You could drop me off down there and I'd probably die lost. I knew about Bermuda Rd. I used to work right off the old road. A few weeks ago while I was down there I looked at it at Kingston Ave and said that was a narrow road for a major road at one time.  I've driven parts of it.

You have to scan and post that 1867 map. I'd love to see it. I will have to find time to go back to the Library of Virginia to look at their map collection. When I was doing my research on Woodville, there was so much stuff by TC Redd that could have helped me that my head literally spun off. I also may try to see what  some of our area's historical societies may have. It's so hard to find old maps online. I wonder why?

Another map that seems to be hard to find is a Richmond map after I-95 but before I-64. I've seen one but it's not a full map and doesn't have a lot of detail.  I also wonder about Kingsland Road. How old is it? Did it predate Chesterfield's separation from Henrico since it's on both sides of the river?

All great stuff.

Burt, I think it's JEB Stuart's leg or something off Telegraph. That's still there... I hadn't seen it in person though. Google maps still has Solomon's Store at Brook and Telegraph.

[lch4]

Cadeho, on Aug 26 2008, 02:46 PM, said:

This is how I waste gas... well to others. Who needs a vacation when there's so much to explore here. Chesterfield is a huge blank slate to me with a few well travelled paths for me. You could drop me off down there and I'd probably die lost. I knew about Bermuda Rd. I used to work right off the old road. A few weeks ago while I was down there I looked at it at Kingston Ave and said that was a narrow road for a major road at one time.  I've driven parts of it.

You have to scan and post that 1867 map. I'd love to see it. I will have to find time to go back to the Library of Virginia to look at their map collection. When I was doing my research on Woodville, there was so much stuff by TC Redd that could have helped me that my head literally spun off. I also may try to see what  some of our area's historical societies may have. It's so hard to find old maps online. I wonder why?

Another map that seems to be hard to find is a Richmond map after I-95 but before I-64. I've seen one but it's not a full map and doesn't have a lot of detail.  I also wonder about Kingsland Road. How old is it? Did it predate Chesterfield's separation from Henrico since it's on both sides of the river?

All great stuff.

Burt, I think it's JEB Stuart's leg or something off Telegraph. That's still there... I hadn't seen it in person though. Google maps still has Solomon's Store at Brook and Telegraph.

you can view the Cold Harbor Map online at, http://www.davidrums...m/maps5654.html

you'll need to have popup blockers turned off for it...at least I had to.  but it lets you zoom in and get a decent look at it.

[Cadeho]

I didn't know there were more Michie Maps...  I love it!

Edited by Cadeho, 26 August 2008 - 03:28 PM.

[burt]

About Main Street Station:  Opened November 27, 1901 and was praised as "the finest railway station south of Washington."  That's probably true, because D.C,'s Union Station didn't come on the scene until some time later.

Presently, there are only two single through tracks at the station --  the old C&O line on the east side of the building and the original Seaboard Air Line track on the west which presently is used for freight only.  Loading platforms stretched 550 feet and were soon disciovered to be inadequate.  It was not uncommon for passengers to debark and board on the trestles above Main Street as trains grew to greater lengths.  The shed had four stub-end tracks allowing for termination, origin and storage of trains.

In the 1940's a proposal was made to build a new (and ugly) multi-storied station with five or six tracks about three blocks north of Main Street Station close to the present location of Harpers Hardware on Broad.  The plan was abandoned due to the decrease in passenger traffic after World War II.

In 1983 a shopping center opened, unsuccessfully, on the ground and track levels of the shed which required the removal of the stub-end trackage.

With its present track set-up, it is difficult to see how MSS could ever become more than a pass-thru depot.  For example, Amtrak has a southbound arrival scheduled at 5:12PM and a northbound at 5:55PM.  Given that both are generally late, one or the other has to idle a few miles from the station until the first one has arrived and departed.

Unless some brilliant configuration is devised, MSS has little future for high volume traffic, IMO.

Four trains a day stop on the single east-side track enroute to Newport News south/east bound and to Boston north bound.

Edited by burt, 28 August 2008 - 10:41 AM.

[lch4]

burt, on Aug 28 2008, 12:38 PM, said:

About Main Street Station:  Opened November 27, 1901 and was praised as "the finest railway station south of Washington."  That's probably true, because D.C,'s Union Station didn't come on the scene until some time later.

Presently, there are only two single through tracks at the station --  the old C&O line on the east side of the building and the original Seaboard Air Line track on the west which presently is used for freight only.  Loading platforms stretched 550 feet and were soon disciovered to be inadequate.  It was not uncommon for passengers to debark and board on the trestles above Main Street as trains grew to greater lengths.  The shed had four stub-end tracks allowing for termination, origin and storage of trains.

In the 1940's a proposal was made to build a new (and ugly) multi-storied station with five or six tracks about three blocks north of Main Street Station close to the present location of Harpers Hardware on Broad.  The plan was abandoned due to the decrease in passenger traffic after World War II.

In 1983 a shopping center opened, unsuccessfully, on the ground and track levels of the shed which required the removal of the stub-end trackage.

With its present track set-up, it is difficult to see how MSS could ever become more than a pass-thru depot.  For example, Amtrak has a southbound arrival scheduled at 5:12PM and a northbound at 5:55PM.  Given that both are generally late, one or the other has to idle a few miles from the station until the first one has arrived and departed.

Unless some brilliant configuration is devised, MSS has little future for high volume traffic, IMO.

Four trains a day stop on the single east-side track enroute to Newport News south/east bound and to Boston north bound.

I couldn't agree with you more Burt, it is a neat idea to use Main Street Station, but it isn't configured for it.  From what I also have read and been told, it's also no easy thing for trains to make it to Acca Yards from MSS due to the grade.  I don't know if passenger trains fall victim to this or not, but they say freight trains move at an excruciatingly slow pace from Brown Street Yards to Acca Yards.

The high speed rail folks want to use MSS, but it seems more logical for the High Speed to go down the old ACL main line which the Amtrak trains headed south of Richmond use.  Sadly, (well, kinda sadly) Broad Street Station would work much better as a rail station in that scenario, but the Commonwealth of VA and thousands of elementary school kids may night like that idea.

I really hope something will be done sooner rather than later.  But I've learned to expect nothing and be surprised at progress.

I never heard about the plans for a new station up from MSS, I wonder if a drawing of it exists somewhere.

Edited by lch4, 28 August 2008 - 11:10 AM.

[burt]

lch4, on Aug 28 2008, 01:09 PM, said:

I couldn't agree with you more Burt, it is a neat idea to use Main Street Station, but it isn't configured for it. From what I also have read and been told, it's also no easy thing for trains to make it to Acca Yards from MSS due to the grade. I don't know if passenger trains fall victim to this or not, but they say freight trains move at an excruciatingly slow pace from Brown Street Yards to Acca Yards.

The high speed rail folks want to use MSS, but it seems more logical for the High Speed to go down the old ACL main line which the Amtrak trains headed south of Richmond use. Sadly, (well, kinda sadly) Broad Street Station would work much better as a rail station in that scenario, but the Commonwealth of VA and thousands of elementary school kids may night like that idea.

I really hope something will be done sooner rather than later. But I've learned to expect nothing and be surprised at progress.

I never heard about the plans for a new station up from MSS, I wonder if a drawing of it exists somewhere.

A rendering of the proposed replacement station for MSS is in a coffee-table book titled VIRGINIA RAILWAY DEPOTS by Donald R. Traser.  The rendering is on Page 37.

It is an absolutely fabulous book.  Maybe you can browse thru a copy if you come upon it in a book store.  Try Fountain Books in Shockoe Slip.