58 replies to this topic

[cityboi]

The problem with Oak Hollow Mall is that is want built in close proximity to an interstate. Its one reason Carolina Circle Mall failed even though Carolina Circle did border Hwy 29. Some may say Friendly Center isn't near an interstate but the demographics around Friendly Shopping Center over comes that. A mall in High Point is doable as long as its near an interstate and its located much further away from shopping destinations in Greensboro. A mall at the new I-85/I-74 interchange might be a good location because its easier access for people coming from Asheboro and with that site being in southern High Point, its closer to residents in Archdale, Trinity and Thomasville which don't really have a lot of shopping options. I do know there are commercial sites for sale at the I-85/I-74 interchange so its only a matter of time before we start seeing retail and restaurants pop up there. But I would recommend an outdoor life style center built there instead of an indoor mall. The life style center could a few major department store anchors as well. Some subdivisions have popped up in the vicinity so there may be enough residential in the area to support it.

Edited by cityboi, 20 March 2011 - 11:09 PM.

[StevenRocks]

Whether or not it has a roof really doesn't matter that much.  Lifestyle centers are the buzz right now, but what many forget is that the original "malls" were basically "lifestyle centers" by today's definition, although the detailing and anchors were different.  Outdoor malls have just as many drawbacks as indoor malls.  

I can agree that the new mall should be closer to a major intersection and shouldn't have as many department store anchors.

[cityboi]

StevenRocks, on 21 March 2011 - 05:07 PM, said:

Whether or not it has a roof really doesn't matter that much.  Lifestyle centers are the buzz right now, but what many forget is that the original "malls" were basically "lifestyle centers" by today's definition, although the detailing and anchors were different.  Outdoor malls have just as many drawbacks as indoor malls.  

I can agree that the new mall should be closer to a major intersection and shouldn't have as many department store anchors.

   I think one thing about the very nature of lifestyle centers is that they discourage local youth from using the center as a gathering place.  That has been a problem at all indoor malls in the Triad but not the case with Friendly Center. Four Seasons and Hanes Mall had to enforce new rules to curb that problem. Indoor malls have a safety perception now in the wake of shootings and robberies at Four Seasons. That kind of activity is a great part in what led to the demise of Carolina Circle Mall. There were a few other reasons Carolina Circle Mall failed but the crime is ultimately what scared shoppers away. Indoor malls will be built again in the future but they are going to have to be re-invented, look less like the typical suburban shopping mall and safety needs to be addressed.

    As more and more people move to the core of urban cities I think we'll start seeing the outdoor lifestyle centers being built in downtowns. The urban lifestyle centers probably won't be as large as today's big regional malls but they would have stores people are familiar seeing in indoor malls such as the Gap, Abercrombie & Fitch, Lane Bryant ect. urban malls really haven't been done yet in most cities and I believe that will become the wave of the future. Would downtown lifestyle centers drive existing downtown retail out of business? I don't think so because many of these retail establishments are not chain stores and they offer unique products that are difficult to find in the chain stores. It would actually have the opposite effect and would attract more customers to local downtown retail establishments. Its a retail cluster effect. I doubt we would see a lifestyle center or any kind of mall built in downtown High Point for several big reasons. Much of the space downtown is being used for furniture showrooms and downtown is away from any major highways. I doubt we'd see anything like that in downtown Greensboro as well because Friendly Center is only about 2 miles west of downtown. Winston-Salem however has a great opportunity to do that at some point in the future because of the limited shopping options in the city and Hanes Mall is a good distance away from downtown.

Edited by cityboi, 22 March 2011 - 02:54 PM.

[StevenRocks]

Historically, at least as far as I can tell, Friendly Center has never been the type of mall where teens hang out.  I don't have an explanation for why this has been the case, but I think it has a lot to do with the more traditional tenant mix as compared to Four Seasons in its heyday.  Thruway in Winston-Salem is a similar type of store mix, which tends to repel teens and attract their parents.  Four Seasons tends to trend younger and more contemporary.  Hanes Mall does. too.  

When I was a teen, I only went to Friendly if I needed something at Thalhimers/Hecht's or Sears, which was rare at best.  It was the "old people's mall" and my perception only changed in the last few years as my tastes changed and FC's tenant mix evolved.

Personally, I don't want a downtown lifestyle center.  Downtowns should be more about traditional grids and efficient and innovative use of space.  Malls, by whatever name you call them, tend to draw people away from the street and decrease pedestrian activity.  Shopping streets would be wise to integrate some aspects of suburban shopping, but ultimately, they should be downtowns.  The development money would be better spent maximizing free parking and building multi-modal transportation hubs to bring in shoppers.

[NCMike1981]

One would think that since the trend of lifestyle centers are so popular that would have helped downtowns across the nation. Think about it...individual storefronts in an "outdoor" setting with parking (albeit parallel) right in front of the stores. But alas folks are still more comfortable with this setup out in the burbs vs in an urban setting. Plus downtowns are still hurting from the population flights of decades earlier.

As a side note has anyone been to the JCPenney recently? Have they started their going out of business sales yet?

[crowe1856]

NCMike1981, on 23 March 2011 - 06:17 AM, said:

One would think that since the trend of lifestyle centers are so popular that would have helped downtowns across the nation. Think about it...individual storefronts in an "outdoor" setting with parking (albeit parallel) right in front of the stores...

Glad I'm not the only one who's pondered the irony of fleeing urban settings only to construct fake urban settings in the 'burbs. Imagine if the resources put into creating "mainstreet" lifestyle centers were more commonly reinvested in actual mainstreets.

[cityboi]

The problem with using existing store fronts for an "urban mall" is that many of the buildings are historic buildings and the spaces are too small for many of the chain stores. Its also more expensive because the developer would have to put a lot of money into renovation and you can run into a number of problems with old buildings as we have seen with the Woolworth Building. Flood damage delayed construction on the International Civil Rights Museum. Also it would be difficult for a developer to purchase a row of store fronts for a continuous urban strip mall which I would rather not see any way. "main street" store fronts should have a mix of different establishments such as retail, restaurants, bars, clubs, ect to create real synergy on the streets. I do believe that new life style centers can be done tastefully in a downtown setting without looking fake or out of place and they can be built without parking lots unlike the suburban life style center.

Boise, Idaho has built a downtown life style center

http://activerain.co...own-boise-idaho

Some people don't agree with the idea of having national chain retail stores downtown but I think they would attract people to the center-city to shop and that would help people discover some of the more unique locally owned retail shops.

Edited by cityboi, 23 March 2011 - 08:47 PM.

[StevenRocks]

NCMike1981, on 23 March 2011 - 06:17 AM, said:

One would think that since the trend of lifestyle centers are so popular that would have helped downtowns across the nation. Think about it...individual storefronts in an "outdoor" setting with parking (albeit parallel) right in front of the stores. But alas folks are still more comfortable with this setup out in the burbs vs in an urban setting. Plus downtowns are still hurting from the population flights of decades earlier.

As a side note has anyone been to the JCPenney recently? Have they started their going out of business sales yet?

The things that drive developers to the suburbs are cheaper development costs and the ability to control the entire project.  Your typical downtown has multiple property owners with buildings of varying ages, styles and structural conditions. Not to mention parking and crime issues, both real and perceived.  Even if you buy up the surrounding landowners and build fresh buildings and a state of the art parking garage, downtown development is not easy, and there's always the possibility of failure.  Large scale downtown retail has a low success rate compared your typical suburban mall.

I stopped going to chain store closing sales a while back. The liquidators have a tendency to sell all the good stuff to off-price chains and overcharge for the junk that's left.

[cityboi]

I've heard FURTHER rumors from an insider that High Point University is really trying to get a football program and Oak Hollow Mall will eventually be demolished to make way for a large football stadium like Groves Stadium at Wake Forest. The footprint of the mall is perfect for a stadium (a Groves Stadium overlay was done on an aerial)  and the mall parking would remain intact as stadium parking. Interesting rumor but I guess we will see what happens. For some time now this has been the speculation. I do know that HPU also wants to build an arena as well. High Point University is rapid growing and is very quickly turning into a major university.

Edited by cityboi, 12 April 2011 - 08:27 AM.

[morehead]

cityboi, on 20 March 2011 - 11:02 PM, said:

A mall at the new I-85/I-74 interchange might be a good location because its easier access for people coming from Asheboro and with that site being in southern High Point, its closer to residents in Archdale, Trinity and Thomasville which don't really have a lot of shopping options. I do know there are commercial sites for sale at the I-85/I-74 interchange so its only a matter of time before we start seeing retail and restaurants pop up there.

That location is supported by a large number of low-income households and a small number of moderate-income households. It is also inside the city limits of Archdale which is challenged to service a large mall. Being far removed from the population center of High Point, and located within the Randleman Lake watershed, I'd be surprised if any development happened at that site any time soon.

cityboi, on 22 March 2011 - 01:29 PM, said:

Indoor malls have a safety perception now in the wake of shootings and robberies at Four Seasons.

The next mall to fall apart. Does anyone actually go there any more?

StevenRocks, on 22 March 2011 - 09:22 PM, said:

Historically, at least as far as I can tell, Friendly Center has never been the type of mall where teens hang out.  I don't have an explanation for why this has been the case,...

Teen boys hang out where teen girls hang out. Teen girls don't like to hang out outside in sun, rain, or cold. They prefer climate controlled locations, otherwise they are just baking in the sun standing outside J. Crew. One of the only interior places they can "hang out" at friendly is the Apple Store, which is packed after school is out.

cityboi, on 23 March 2011 - 08:29 PM, said:

... and you can run into a number of problems with old buildings as we have seen with the Woolworth Building. Flood damage delayed construction on the International Civil Rights Museum.

Anyone who wants to convert a Woolworths Drug Store into a Smithsonian affiliated and climate-controlled museum is going to have "problems". Water in the basement had less to do with the delays in this project than overall fundraising, management, and programming of the museum.

StevenRocks, on 24 March 2011 - 08:11 PM, said:

The things that drive developers to the suburbs are cheaper development costs and the ability to control the entire project.  Your typical downtown has multiple property owners with buildings of varying ages, styles and structural conditions. Not to mention parking and crime issues, both real and perceived.  Even if you buy up the surrounding landowners and build fresh buildings and a state of the art parking garage, downtown development is not easy, and there's always the possibility of failure.  Large scale downtown retail has a low success rate compared your typical suburban mall.

The things that drive developers to downtown are higher income levels and sales per-square foot, which is why downtowns in Asheville, Georgetown DC, and Charleston SC have done so well. Urban Outfitters came close to selecting South Elm Street for a store, recognizing the potential downtown Greensboro has with large student population and a historic center.

"'cityboi':  I've heard FURTHER rumors from an insider that High Point University is really trying to get a football program and Oak Hollow Mall will eventually be demolished to make way for a large football stadium like Groves Stadium at Wake Forest."
This is the only site that can accomodate a stadium/sports complex anywhere near HPU without destroying (more) acres of the city.

[DigitalSky]

HPU has purchased the Circuit City site on the property.

[DigitalSky]

A developer is proposing new shopping for High Point.

They want to build a "mall" (lifestyle center... barf) that is around 350,000 square feet (which is the size of Randolph Mall) somewhere in High Point city limits for the remainder of the retailers to flock to when Oak Hollow Closes.

Put it into perspective: Oak Hollow Mall is 1,262,000 square feet total, of which 800,000 was bought by High Point University (and assuming they will buy the rest eventually)

The two locations that are proposed are near the Palladium (IMO too close to Greensboro, Four Seasons and Wendover) or at the new 311 Bypass & I-85 Business (IMO too far away from a lot of High Point who will still go to Greensboro or Winston-Salem to shop)

Belk said they are committed to staying in High Point, and they are at nearly every mall in NC so no doubt Belk would flock to this project.  I really can't see any other department store moving there, JC Penney pretty much showed they are through with HP,  Sears/(Kmart) is in jeopardy, Dillard's probably won't be able to compete either.  I could see perhaps Kohl's (if the 311&85 site is picked) and maybe Target relocating there.. and possibly Best Buy and other junior box retailers.  (still can't believe Guilford County only has one Best Buy)

If any more develops on this I'll create a new thread, otherwise it's probably wise to keep it in with this one.

Story:
http://www.myfox8.co...0,1260133.story

If only Westchester Mall was still open today and Oak Hollow never built we probably wouldn't be dealing with any of this. Sad that mall had to end...

Edited by DigitalSky, 28 June 2011 - 09:02 AM.

[StevenRocks]

I'm curious if High Point really has the market for a mall.  Oak Hollow pretty much was dying from day one.

[DigitalSky]

It doesn't.  The malls of Greensboro and W-S sustain High Point... i think it's just that HP residents want their own mall but yeah good luck with that working

[NCMike1981]

I have a feeling you are right DigitalSky....sounds like the proposed lifestyle center is really just a way for a developer to take advantage of providing a way to allow Belk to move and for the other stores in the current mall to move without leaving the city. I wonder what will happen with the Sears.....they tend to stay put until they either lose all profitability or are kicked out. Does the Sears at the current mall have good road visibility or is it tucked around the back of the mall?

Edited by NCMike1981, 29 June 2011 - 06:32 AM.

[cityboi]

The problem with Oak Hollow is that it was never a regional mall like Four Seasons, Hanes or even Friendly Shopping Center. It served mainly High Point/Archdale/Trinity residents. It was just hard to compete with Four Seasons and Hanes. But Oak Hollow was in a poor location as well. If it had been built closer to I-85/hwy 220, it could have attracted shoppers from Asheboro and other areas. It would have been more regional.

Edited by cityboi, 29 June 2011 - 08:19 AM.

[NCMike1981]

Looks like the Sears @ Oak Hollow was on the latest closing list for Sears:


http://searsholdings...22711_close.pdf

[cityboi]

I figured Sears at Oak Hollow would close. Eventually they were going to close because HPU wants to tear the mall down and build an arena

[DigitalSky]

No surprise there.