221 replies to this topic

[tSlater]

On that map I'd say Fountain between Bostwick and Ionia could probably be another yellow zone.  You do have to take in the demographics of each pedestrian area, though.  The idea of a market may be decent with liberal college kids, but are they going to have much money to spend at the market?  How would office worker traffic respond to a market?  Tourist traffic?  Figure out which demographic it should appeal to, and then figure out where their foot traffic is on that map.

[RegalTDP]

By all means, call me off-base, but I don't think the current pedestrian traffic patterns are much of a factor.  I expect the market to enhance foot traffic in its vicinity, rather than feed off of it, so we should be looking at the map to see where we can add more yellow and red zones.  The reason I think these year-round markets have worked in other cities (and will work in this city) is because they draw people from all over the area, especially in from the suburbs.  I think people who usually never see downtown will come in for this.  Some people just flat out like getting their food at local farm markets, and if they are, they're willing to drive extra miles to go to them.

So therefore, and I know this isn't a popular thing to say on UrbanPlanet, but we need to put this in a downtown spot that's easy to drive to, as opposed to walk to.  That's why I think Grand Action is particularly looking at big parking lots.  I only see this market succeeding with suburbanite support, so we need to ensure they have room to roll in with their Tahoes.

Edited by RegalTDP, 17 June 2009 - 07:16 PM.

[GRDadof3]

RegalTDP, on Jun 17 2009, 09:15 PM, said:

By all means, call me off-base, but I don't think the current pedestrian traffic patterns are much of a factor.  I expect the market to enhance foot traffic in its vicinity, rather than feed off of it, so we should be looking at the map to see where we can add more yellow and red zones.  The reason I think these year-round markets have worked in other cities (and will work in this city) is because they draw people from all over the area, especially in from the suburbs.  I think people who usually never see downtown will come in for this.  Some people just flat out like getting their food at local farm markets, and if they are, they're willing to drive extra miles to go to them.

So therefore, and I know this isn't a popular thing to say on UrbanPlanet, but we need to put this in a downtown spot that's easy to drive to, as opposed to walk to.  That's why I think Grand Action is particularly looking at big parking lots.  I only see this market succeeding with suburbanite support, so we need to ensure they have room to roll in with their Tahoes.

Yes, but do you just want the market to be an island unto itself?  Even if busy, does it do anything for downtown if people just roll in with their Tahoes and then roll out?  Why can't it do a couple of things:  contribute to the pedestrian vibe (not just the auto congestion vibe), and appeal to suburbanites?  Right now, there are too many gaps between pedestrian hot spots (just look at the map).  The area from Monroe Center down Ionia to the Ionia Ave entertainment area is a dead zone.  Monroe Avenue from in front of city hall to the Brassworks Buildings is a dead zone.  Do we need more dead zones between destinations?  No.  In fact, if positioned well, the market could serve as an "anchor" for a pedestrian zone.

And Rizzo is right.  If Grand Action has anything to do with the streetcar going in, then I'd guess more than several of those "ten lots" they are looking at are along Monroe Ave.

[RegalTDP]

Maybe I should've worded the last post differently - "as easy to drive to as it is to walk to" - maybe that would have been better.  I wasn't envisioning Dodger Stadium here.  I agree Louis Street is a pedestrian dead zone, and actually, despite what I said, the big parking ramps make it a pretty easy driving destination... But I still don't think we should put it there.  

The "Roll In, Roll Out" crowd is going to show up regardless of where you put this, and they'll probably make up most of the business.  For your typical suburbanite, if food purchasing isn't an errand in and of itself, it's the last in a chain of errands.  I think the real value in this market isn't its pedestrian-friendliness, but its potential to spur more retail around it, and revitalize interest in a whole new neighborhood... and at that point I think the pedestrians will come.  Louis Street is a dead zone now, but all the streets around it aren't.  For me, I think it's only a matter of time until developers move over a block and start filling in Louis.  I don't think it needs the help of this market.

And as for the Monroe dead zone, keep in mind I said before I think North Monroe is a good place for it, for the reason above - to spur retail interest in that area (and with the streetcar, even better).  However, even if it's there, the Michigan/Monroe intersection will still be dead.  I don't think there's a single person here that doesn't loathe that corner.  But nothing can be done about that unless either the Post Office or the GR Press decide to move.

Edited by RegalTDP, 18 June 2009 - 06:29 AM.

[GRDadof3]

RegalTDP, on Jun 18 2009, 08:29 AM, said:

Maybe I should've worded the last post differently - "as easy to drive to as it is to walk to" - maybe that would have been better.  I wasn't envisioning Dodger Stadium here.  I agree Louis Street is a pedestrian dead zone, and actually, despite what I said, the big parking ramps make it a pretty easy driving destination... But I still don't think we should put it there.  

The "Roll In, Roll Out" crowd is going to show up regardless of where you put this, and they'll probably make up most of the business.  For your typical suburbanite, if food purchasing isn't an errand in and of itself, it's the last in a chain of errands.  I think the real value in this market isn't its pedestrian-friendliness, but its potential to spur more retail around it, and revitalize interest in a whole new neighborhood... and at that point I think the pedestrians will come.  Louis Street is a dead zone now, but all the streets around it aren't.  For me, I think it's only a matter of time until developers move over a block and start filling in Louis.  I don't think it needs the help of this market.

And as for the Monroe dead zone, keep in mind I said before I think North Monroe is a good place for it, for the reason above - to spur retail interest in that area (and with the streetcar, even better).  However, even if it's there, the Michigan/Monroe intersection will still be dead.  I don't think there's a single person here that doesn't loathe that corner.  But nothing can be done about that unless either the Post Office or the GR Press decide to move.

I hear what you're saying.  I'm just hoping that when they make the announcement, we're not all scratching our heads and thinking "another golden opportunity lost."  Like I want to say, Dear Grand Action:  "please do not put the market at the old Auto Parts Store site on Market Ave (the big city-owned land area/mystery project area), or some other lame spot to try and trigger other development that might not ever come in my lifetime"  Monroe Ave/Monroe North would get my vote if asked.

[n_wasmiller]

In related news...

Lansing announced yesterday that it will modify plans for its year-round market, reducing the square footage to fit its budget.  The new market will now be about 11,400 square foot and is scheduled in open in December.  

The new building will replace the structure that has housed the market for about 70 years.  It houses about 40 vendors.

http://www.lansingst...328/1002/NEWS01

[GRDadof3]

Two thoughts came to mind on this recently:  They're doing an awful lot of work on the parking lot across from Bistro Bella Vita.  The entire site is torn up and they are doing underground utility work.  Possible?  The other thought was, I'll bet the WAM site on North Monroe has been investigated for this.  I don't know if the hotel will ever get off the ground, and there's a lot of parking for the market across the street and on Monroe.

[n_wasmiller]

GRDadof3, on Jul 14 2009, 09:06 AM, said:

Two thoughts came to mind on this recently:  They're doing an awful lot of work on the parking lot across from Bistro Bella Vita.  The entire site is torn up and they are doing underground utility work.  Possible?  The other thought was, I'll bet the WAM site on North Monroe has been investigated for this.  I don't know if the hotel will ever get off the ground, and there's a lot of parking for the market across the street and on Monroe.

I like both of these ideas.  The parking lot by Bistro would be preferred.

[gvstudent]

GRDadof3, on Jul 14 2009, 09:06 AM, said:

The other thought was, I'll bet the WAM site on North Monroe has been investigated for this. I don't know if the hotel will ever get off the ground, and there's a lot of parking for the market across the street and on Monroe.

The guy working on the Hotel sent a letter to the Monroe North Business Association to give an update on the Monroe North project. He was working on a hotel in Bay City/Midland area and that took up a lot of his time. He said looking back, he wishes he would have built the Monroe North hotel before the one in Bay City/Midland. Anyway, the building on the WAM site is supposed to be demolished by August.

[tSlater]

So the North Monroe Hotel is still a go?  I figured it was just another pipe dream by now.

[GRDadof3]

gvstudent, on Jul 14 2009, 09:56 AM, said:

The guy working on the Hotel sent a letter to the Monroe North Business Association to give an update on the Monroe North project. He was working on a hotel in Bay City/Midland area and that took up a lot of his time. He said looking back, he wishes he would have built the Monroe North hotel before the one in Bay City/Midland. Anyway, the building on the WAM site is supposed to be demolished by August.

Wow.  I too thought it was dead.

[gvstudent]

GRDadof3, on Jul 14 2009, 02:03 PM, said:

Wow. I too thought it was dead.

I thought that it was too but apparently it is somewhat on schedule. I did a little research, and the Beukema's said in Grand Rapids Magazine last year that they wanted to start construction in July 2009 because they wanted to wrap-up the Holiday Inn in Midland. Here's a link to the article. http://www.grmag.com...07-08/07-08.htm . Their deadline to start construction is at the end of the month. It is estimated that it would be completed in 18 months from construction start to finish.

[GRDadof3]

Update:

http://blog.mlive.co...ds_farmers.html

[GRDadof3]

Another update on the year round market:

http://blog.mlive.co...pids_urban.html

[jbr12]

Forget a new market... lets re-purpose something!

http://civileats.com...-suburban-farm/

Quote

Inventing the Suburban [Or Urban] Farm
Farming on disused suburban properties such as former shopping malls or big-box stores could help resolve a growing problem, writes the architect and educator Forrest Fulton, of Birmingham, Ala. Suburban farmers could grow container crops in soil and compost on asphalt parking lots. Light poles in parking lots can become solar trees with photovoltaic panels. And the top of a big-box building can be replaced with a greenhouse roof. Fulton arrived at the idea after seeing so many dead retail centers in the suburbs, he says. "What really got my attention were the many empty grocery stores."

[fotoman311]

Studio 28, reborn as a suburban community garden.  I like it.

[Ted]

fotoman311, on 16 December 2009 - 06:40 AM, said:

Studio 28, reborn as a suburban community garden. I like it.

+1

[fotoman311]

Ted, on 16 December 2009 - 08:23 AM, said:

+1

The possibilities for collaboration with Rogers Park High are great.  It could possibly compliment the flea market in some ways.  Doesn't produce much tax revenue for Wyoming, though.

[GRDadof3]

fotoman311, on 16 December 2009 - 09:05 AM, said:

The possibilities for collaboration with Rogers Park High are great.  It could possibly compliment the flea market in some ways.  Doesn't produce much tax revenue for Wyoming, though.

I think you mean "any" tax revenue.  Who would buy the land and set it up?  That's an expensive parcel.

[fotoman311]

GRDadof3, on 16 December 2009 - 09:34 AM, said:

I think you mean "any" tax revenue.  Who would buy the land and set it up?  That's an expensive parcel.

Hey, I didn't say it was feasible.  I just said I liked it.



The parcel's 2009 Taxable value is $2.5 million, down from $4 million in 2008.  My understanding is that the taxable value is supposed to be approximately 1/2 the market value, yes?  Is the property really worth $5 million?  How much does a big box store usually pay to acquire their parcel?

That's gotta be a pretty big tax bill that Celebration is paying on a non-revenue generating property (aside from whatever pittance they get in rent from the flea market.)

Edit:  Rylee's Ace had to pay $1.675 million for the parcel they are developing on Michigan.  Obviously, that's a much more urban area, so it's not exactly comparable.  But the Studio 28 land is about 8.5 times as big. (19 vs 2.2 acres)

Perhaps a better comparison would be the Meijer parcel at 54th and Clyde Park (41-17-36-151-015, owned by Goodwill Co Inc?!? according to Kent County) with a taxable value of $5 million and 24 acres area.

Edited by fotoman311, 16 December 2009 - 11:48 AM.