208 replies to this topic

[beyonce245]

RALNATIVE, on Jul 24 2009, 03:49 PM, said:

From what I understand, he wasn't the one who leaked those plans...some over zealous, news hungry people did.

Honestly, from the responses and reactions that i'm seeing here, no wonder developers such as these seem to constantly target Greensboro for their ideas.

You can read through the previous comments and notice that I have, through several posts now, reiterated my skepticism of this project.  That's why I continue to neither embrace nor reject the proposal.  For one, the city hasn't even issued an RFP for this land so anything said or done until developers present their proposals is pure speculation.

This land needs to be handled properly, and needs to be used for a purpose that will have positive benefits, not only downtown but other surrounding areas as well.

My problem with your comments is that you seem to only be here to stir up the pot.  You've made your point.  You're skeptical and have doubts.  We get it.  SO MOVE ON.  I can't speak for anyone else.  But I, for one, don't appreciate your painting the people of Greensboro as gullible and suckers for entertaining proposals to further revitalize downtown.

Edited by beyonce245, 24 July 2009 - 03:14 PM.

[krazeeboi]

While I believe that the downtown hotel market seems to be underserved and that downtown could probably use another hotel, it is pretty surprising to see such grand plans revealed before any studies or analyses were done to see if the downtown market could support this project in its original form. Personally, I think that a luxury/boutique hotel with around 100 rooms would be more feasible, but I'm not a hotel developer.

[cityboi]

It really boils down to the kind of hotel this is going to be. There are different kinds of hotels. Grandover is a resort hotel. The Sheraton Four Seasons is a convention hotel. The hotel in this proposal is a "luxury business" hotel. There are very few business hotels over 100 rooms in Greensboro. The Proximity is really the only big luxury business hotel in Greensboro which may explain why its owner is being vocal and skeptic about this project. Clearly he wouldnt want the competition. But the business hotel market is under served, particularly downtown. It was mentioned that no feasibilty studies have been done yet. How do we know that? I think the reduction of the number of rooms shows that some studies are being done in regards to what this location can support. The developer threw the general concept out there and is now adjusting that concept to what the market can support. I have no doubt this project can happen. But yes i understand the skeptisim because a few hotels have already been proposed for downtown and those plans fell through. So I can understand the mentality of I'll believe it when I see it.

Edited by cityboi, 24 July 2009 - 04:25 PM.

[Beany]

I have to say I am skeptical of this one myself.  Hard for me to see a 200 room luxury hotel at that location at this time.  If this were proposed on North Elm or maybe around the ballpark I could see it.  Even then I am not sure about 200 rooms.   If this were a 100 room Hampton Inn at that location I could see it more.  If there was something on that side of Lee Street I could see it more.  To me this would make more sense if the redevelopment of that area was futher along.  Then the hotel would not be stuck on that side of Lee with just it and a school administrative building.

I would think a more modestly priced 100 room hotel there would make the most sense.  It would still help to catalyze the redevelopment of that area while standing a better chance at success.

I am afraid that there seems to be a push to redevelop this area with whatever they can get.  I know they say that developments will have to fit in with the overall plan but I just don't see how the school admin building as illustrated fits in at all with the redevelopment plans I have seen.  I am afraid the school building and a 200 room mid rise hotel could become block killers.  You already have an old building and parking lot at the northwest corner of Elm and Lee creating a block killer.  If you have something similar going on at the southwest and southeast corners you will effectively cut off the redevelopment area from the rest of downtown.  Pedestrian wise there will not be a flow.  I think it is very important that what gets built at the southwest and southeast corners are not set back from the corners.  The pedestrian flow needs to continue as much as possible from the other side of Lee.  I just bring this up because the school building illustration as well as the hotel illustration both look like they would be setback from the streets.

[basket1058]

I wish Greensboro the best in this endeavor but it I do wonder what kind of niche the new hotel can exploit? Quaintance-Weaver already has two fine luxury hotels in the O. Henry Hotel and the Proximity Hotel, the latter of which is still a very new, cutting edge establishment. Not to mention that both hotels are within a short drive of downtown too. Of course Grandover has a nice golf course and good frontage on the interstate. After the Triumph Center saga I hope the city and the developers take their time and do their homework to insure that they have a quality product that is competitive with the other resort properties in the city. Both Winston and Greensboro have seen their fair share of projects fall through so it best to reserve one;s expectation till a more final proposal is put forth to the city council.

I'm crossing my fingers though!!  

[cityboi]

One thing that could kill the whole project is if the city can't get federal money for the school administration building. For some reason Bridget Chisholm needs the school administration project to happen first. If she cant get federal stimulus money for her hotel project then it dies as well. I'm not sure why some think she is not serious about her proposal though.  As far as a luxury hotel being put at this location, I think its realistic when you consider that there are other luxury developments nearby (Southside). If Southside had not happened I would have serious doubts about this hotel project, But when you have luxury lofts and condos that almost front Lee Street (the questionable area), I think a luxury hotel can be possible as well. I use Southside as a barometer for what can happen in the area. Also more and more restaurants are opening on Elm Street closer to Lee Street. I personally think the South Elm/Lee Street development should become an extension of Southside. One great thing about this hotel project is that it would likely help speed up streetscape improvements along Lee Street/High Point Rd between downtown and the Koury Convention Center. There may be enough federal stimulus money to do it.

Edited by cityboi, 27 July 2009 - 06:29 AM.

[RALNATIVE]

It sounds like she is applying for federal stimulus funds for the school administration bldg, and is using that to justify, and potentially fund the construction of the hotel in conjunction with that. I don't think that building luxury hotels is what the government had in mind for use of our federal stimulus dollars.

[beyonce245]

RALNATIVE, on Jul 27 2009, 01:56 PM, said:

It sounds like she is applying for federal stimulus funds for the school administration bldg, and is using that to justify, and potentially fund the construction of the hotel in conjunction with that. I don't think that building luxury hotels is what the government had in mind for use of our federal stimulus dollars.

Chisholm has nothing to do with the school administration building.  That project is being headed up by Gate City Co. and the Community Foundation of Greensboro.

[RALNATIVE]

beyonce245, on Jul 27 2009, 11:13 AM, said:

Chisholm has nothing to do with the school administration building.  That project is being headed up by Gate City Co. and the Community Foundation of Greensboro.

Then why the connection and dependence on the school administration project? These don't seem logically connected.

[beyonce245]

RALNATIVE, on Jul 27 2009, 02:48 PM, said:

Then why the connection and dependence on the school administration project? These don't seem logically connected.

From a N&R article earlier in July: "Although Memphis, Tenn. consultant Bridget Chisholm had also planned to go on the trip, the delegation was not going to discuss her proposal — a $75 million hotel with 300 rooms in the redevelopment district south of Lee Street.

“The hotel development is a separate project,” Sanders said."

She may indeed be waiting to see what happens with the school project before she moves forward (although I don't know why).  As for funding, she wants to use a combination of private capital and redevelopment bonds that would be paid back over a number of years.

I don't know where Cityboi got his information because he didn't reference any articles or media reports.

As for the school building, which probably is best left for a different topic thread, I'm not sure why officials are seeking stimulus funds.  From what I understood about the plan, the consolidation of the school administration into one facility would free up upwards of a dozen existing buildings, which would be sold to pay for the new facility.  That, along with a combination of redevelopment bonds paid for with increased tax value, was said to cover the entire cost of the school project.

One last note: I'd like to reiterate that the city of Greensboro has not even issued an RFP for this land.  Therefore, we should be talking about Chisholm's proposal as anything but definite.  It's probable that other developers will submit competing RFPs for this area since the land will be sold at a price substantially below market value and will be subject to low interest redevelopment bonds.

So anything about Chisholm's plans or any other plan for that matter is nothing more than speculation.

Edited by beyonce245, 27 July 2009 - 01:11 PM.

[cityboi]

looks like there is some environmental testings and grading being done on the proposed hotel and school administration building sites. ECS Carolinas LLP is involved with doing this so maybe we'll hear something soon about these projects. The company did preliminary work for the Grandover Resort, Ritz Carlton in uptown Charlotte and the Dell site.

Edited by cityboi, 15 September 2009 - 03:54 PM.

[cityboi]

neighborhood wants this hotel locally owned

http://www.news-reco...cally_run_hotel

[cityboi]

http://www.news-reco...r_hotel_proposa

city commision is considering to sale land for hotel project. If this land is sold, its likely this hotel project is happening.

more hotel details.....

The proposed hotel would be built at the corner of South Elm and Lee streets. It would be seven stories tall on that corner.

It will include 200 guest rooms, a restaurant, a lobby bar, a pool and 7,400 square feet of meeting space. Rooms would rent for more than $200 a night.

An adjacent parking garage — proposed to be built with an $8 million subsidy from the city — would be two-stories tall and hold 16,000 square feet of retail space

A feasibility study written by a hospitality consultant group recommended recruiting the luxury hotel company InterContinental for the project. Im not sure if they are talking about an InterContinental hotel or one of the brands they own such as Crown Plaza, Holiday Inn and Candlewood Suite. I will say I cant imagine a Holiday Inn at $200 plus a night. But its also worth noting that InterContinental is an upscale hotel chain found in cities such as Atlanta, New York, San Francisco, Boston and Houston and would be an amazing feat to attract such a hotel downtown. I will say the city really needs to clean up the area with improved streetscaping. when you clean up an area, tackle potential crime spots, the perception of an area can change like it did with Southside.

Edited by cityboi, 30 November 2009 - 08:12 PM.

[beyonce245]

cityboi, on 30 November 2009 - 07:42 PM, said:

http://www.news-reco...r_hotel_proposa

city commision is considering to sale land for hotel project. If this land is sold, its likely this hotel project is happening.

more hotel details.....

The proposed hotel would be built at the corner of South Elm and Lee streets. It would be seven stories tall on that corner.

It will include 200 guest rooms, a restaurant, a lobby bar, a pool and 7,400 square feet of meeting space. Rooms would rent for more than $200 a night.

An adjacent parking garage — proposed to be built with an $8 million subsidy from the city — would be two-stories tall and hold 16,000 square feet of retail space

A feasibility study written by a hospitality consultant group recommended recruiting the luxury hotel company InterContinental for the project. Im not sure if they are talking about an InterContinental hotel or one of the brands they own such as Crown Plaza, Holiday Inn and Candlewood Suite. I will say I cant imagine a Holiday Inn at $200 plus a night. But its also worth noting that InterContinental is an upscale hotel chain found in cities such as Atlanta, New York, San Francisco, Boston and Houston and would be an amazing feat to attract such a hotel downtown. I will say the city really needs to clean up the area with improved streetscaping. when you clean up an area, tackle potential crime spots, the perception of an area can change like it did with Southside.

You beat me to the post once again cityboi.   To Ms. Chisholm's credit, it's good to see that this proposal has been reduced in terms of acreage.  They wanted 4 acres, as cited in the article from your Oct. 9th post.  Now it's down to 2.75.  I also like that a parking deck would be incorporated.  But if the city is going to subsidize the parking deck, the city and Chisholm alike should consider building a larger deck.  A two story parking deck doesn't seem like enough space for a hotel with 200 rooms, plus other area traffic.

I'm still wary of this proposal in general.  I don't think an Intercontinental hotel is very likely at this location.  But you're right that it would be a good get for downtown.  I'm also concerned that this project would have the potential to get stalled along the way, since Chisholm would be relying substantially on bonds through the ARRA.  I think that would be less likely to happen through the master developer plan, as previously adopted.  Plus, She wants to move quickly to take advantage of the ARRA bonds, but signing a hotel brand like Intercontinental or the like could take months.

I'd like to see plans from Chisholm, including renderings and specs, and financing.  I'd also like to see the hospitality analysis that recommended Intercontinental.  Hopefully, more details will come out in the coming days.  I might just attend the public hearing on December 21st.

UPDATE: Ok.  So the more I think about it, the more I'd rather see some other brand hotel, should this proposal come to fruition of course.  An Intercontinental hotel is simply not feasible for this site, IMO.  As much as I'd like to see that caliber of hotel downtown, or anywhere in Greensboro for that matter, I'd much rather see a hotel that is more affordable anyway, a hotel that more people would be able to stay at. Something like a Courtyard by Marriott:

Still a nice hotel, but one that more people would be able to afford.  The whole luxury thing kind of irks me.  I'm not opposed to expensive hotels or shops or restaurants.  But if everything is luxury (interpreted as expensive) we will price out whole segments of residents and visitors that could and should be downtown.  IMO, the city and redevelopment commission should be using this land to attract more young professionals and middle income residents.  And a Courtyard by Marriott or similarly priced hotel and compatibly priced shops and restaurants would work better, especially in a transitioning area like this.

Edited by beyonce245, 30 November 2009 - 09:53 PM.

[cityboi]

beyonce245, on 30 November 2009 - 09:05 PM, said:

You beat me to the post once again cityboi.   To Ms. Chisholm's credit, it's good to see that this proposal has been reduced in terms of acreage.  They wanted 4 acres, as cited in the article from your Oct. 9th post.  Now it's down to 2.75.  I also like that a parking deck would be incorporated.  But if the city is going to subsidize the parking deck, the city and Chisholm alike should consider building a larger deck.  A two story parking deck doesn't seem like enough space for a hotel with 200 rooms, plus other area traffic.

I'm still wary of this proposal in general.  I don't think an Intercontinental hotel is very likely at this location.  But you're right that it would be a good get for downtown.  I'm also concerned that this project would have the potential to get stalled along the way, since Chisholm would be relying substantially on bonds through the ARRA.  I think that would be less likely to happen through the master developer plan, as previously adopted.  Plus, She wants to move quickly to take advantage of the ARRA bonds, but signing a hotel brand like Intercontinental or the like could take months.

I'd like to see plans from Chisholm, including renderings and specs, and financing.  I'd also like to see the hospitality analysis that recommended Intercontinental.  Hopefully, more details will come out in the coming days.  I might just attend the public hearing on December 21st.

UPDATE: Ok.  So the more I think about it, the more I'd rather see some other brand hotel, should this proposal come to fruition of course.  An Intercontinental hotel is simply not feasible for this site, IMO.  As much as I'd like to see that caliber of hotel downtown, or anywhere in Greensboro for that matter, I'd much rather see a hotel that is more affordable anyway, a hotel that more people would be able to stay at. Something like a Courtyard by Marriott:

Still a nice hotel, but one that more people would be able to afford.  The whole luxury thing kind of irks me.  I'm not opposed to expensive hotels or shops or restaurants.  But if everything is luxury (interpreted as expensive) we will price out whole segments of residents and visitors that could and should be downtown.  IMO, the city and redevelopment commission should be using this land to attract more young professionals and middle income residents.  And a Courtyard by Marriott or similarly priced hotel and compatibly priced shops and restaurants would work better, especially in a transitioning area like this.

I think the change in acreage signals a change in the original design which many said didn't fit with the area . It seems that some on the commission have reservations about selling the land for the hotel because they wanted to see a developer come in with a master plan. In fact this hotel would be a catalyst for a developer coming in to do just that. Right now developers dont want to take risks on big projects. Here we have a developer coming in wanting to build something of high caliber there and the project would almost immediately attract a master developer in my opinion.   But in many master plan developments such as Southside, there will always be those side developments that were never a part of the original master plan. There are examples of that in Southside and its not a bad thing. I think as long as Chisholm works with the community in coming up with a plan that blends in with the neighborhood it will be fine. There should be no opposition to this project just because its not part of some grand master plan. But Since Chisholm is asking for less land, I do think the commission will take a more serious look at the proposal. As far as a luxury brand at this location, apparently its feasible. Im no expert but the experts doing the studies say its a fit. I have no problem with this being a luxury hotel because downtown already has a more affordable hotel. (Marriott) But it very well could be a Intercontinental Hotel which would be amazing. Like I said before Intercontinental does own other hotel brands but I cant think of any of those brands charging more than $200 a night so we may see something like Intercontinental Hotel. But of course that was only a recommendation.  That doesn't mean the hotel chain will build here. But even if its not a luxury hotel, id still be happy with the proposal.  I guess will have to wait for more details. This is clearly the closest downtown has come in getting a new hotel.

Here is the updated article

http://www.news-reco...ill_get_hearing

"Some redevelopment commission members had concerns that selling off the corner of the property would diminish the value of the rest of the site and make it more difficult to attract a developer."

That couldn't be further from the truth. It seems to me that a luxury hotel would increase land values in the area making it more likely that another developer would jump on board and take advantage before land values get to high. But i must admit, if it had not been for the success of Southside a block away, I would be skeptical of this project.

Edited by cityboi, 01 December 2009 - 09:20 AM.

[cityboi]

The planned 8-story downtown hotel is one step closer to reality. The commission approved to sell the land for the development of a 200 room luxury hotel

http://www.news-reco..._proposed_hotel

of course its not a done deal. This project still has to clear one major hurdle and thats our NEW city council. The project would likely require a public deck much like the other hotel that was proposed at Greene and McGee a few years back and council members like Danny Thompson and Bill Knight might make things difficult if city tax dollars are used in any kind of way for this project. Also there seems to be some conflicting feasibility studies on whether Greensboro can support a $200 a night room hotel. The more I think about it, I believe a $200 hotel is feasible but im not sure for a 200 room hotel. At that rate more like 50 to 100 rooms. In order for a hotel that big with those rates to be succesful, it has to be marketed more as a business (luxury) hotel and it really needs to be a conference hotel to some extent. There has to be a lure to attract guests to pay $200 a night at this hotel in this location. I predict it will happen but the hotel is going to go through some conceptual changes in the process.

Edited by cityboi, 21 December 2009 - 08:08 PM.

[beyonce245]

cityboi, on 21 December 2009 - 07:33 PM, said:

The planned 8-story downtown hotel is one step closer to reality. The commission approved to sell the land for the development of a 200 room luxury hotel

http://www.news-reco..._proposed_hotel

of course its not a done deal. This project still has to clear one major hurdle and thats our NEW city council. The project would likely require a public deck much like the other hotel that was proposed at Greene and McGee a few years back and council members like Danny Thompson and Bill Knight might make things difficult if city tax dollars are used in any kind of way for this project. Also there seems to be some conflicting feasibility studies on whether Greensboro can support a $200 a night room hotel. The more I think about it, I believe a $200 hotel is feasible but im not sure for a 200 room hotel. At that rate more like 50 to 100 rooms. In order for a hotel that big with those rates to be succesful, it has to be marketed more as a business (luxury) hotel and it really needs to be a conference hotel to some extent. There has to be a lure to attract guests to pay $200 a night at this hotel in this location. I predict it will happen but the hotel is going to go through some conceptual changes in the process.

This article provides more background on the proposal.  It was a vote to begin negotiations for a sale, not an actual sale.

The split vote by the redevelopment commission and the conflicting feasibility study commissioned by the city will certainly work against the proposal.  There are still too many hurdles to declare whether or not this project will happen.  I'd say right now it's more likely than not that it won't happen, given Chisholm's heavy reliance on bonds and the required approval by council.  She want's to use the city's entire first share of the ARRA bonds, and I don't know that the council will go for that, especially since several other developers also submitted proposals to use some of the bonds.

I stand by my previous post that a lower, mid scale brand hotel would work better.  I don't think Chisholm can get an Intercontinental or the like to sign on to this deal, especially at this location.

Edited by beyonce245, 21 December 2009 - 09:03 PM.

[cityboi]

I agree. What makes the project realistic are the bonds. Without them, the hotel wont happen. Expect a lot of debate among city leaders but clearly this is the closest downtown has ever come to getting another hotel. If the project doesnt attract a major luxury chain brand such as Intercontinental, I would expect to see one of the other brands Intercontinental owns like Candlewood Suites or something like a Hampton Inn or Wyndham Garden Inn

Edited by cityboi, 22 December 2009 - 12:17 AM.

[beyonce245]

cityboi, on 22 December 2009 - 12:16 AM, said:

I agree. What makes the project realistic are the bonds. Without them, the hotel wont happen. Expect a lot of debate among city leaders but clearly this is the closest downtown has ever come to getting another hotel. If the project doesnt attract a major luxury chain brand such as Intercontinental, I would expect to see one of the other brands Intercontinental owns like Candlewood Suites or something like a Hampton Inn or Wyndham Garden Inn

What I meant about the bonds is that if anything, the bonds make the project less likely to happen.  She wants $46 million in alternative financing (bonds and some outright city subsidies) for a $47 million project.  Where is the rest of the private financing, investors?  Add in a shaky feasibility study done by the City, and this proposal doesn't seem likely to get off the ground.

As I said in a previous post, I'd love to see an Intercontinental hotel or the like in Greensboro.  But there's simply not the market for it yet, and certainly not at this location.  I just can't see the city council approving this deal with so many ifs ands or buts.

Chisholm needs to scale her lofty plans back or it will most probably fail, especially when people like the President of the Koury Corp. have already come out against it and said they would do so at the city council meeting.

I'd still rather see mixed use over a hotel, but that's just me.

[Beany]

I don't see it.  How about a 80-100 room Courtyard with a little bit of ground floor retail.  Now that I would be good.