68 replies to this topic

[Mith242]

Okay here's some things I've come across while looking up info on light rail.  It does seem to be a bit complicated because light rail can be used and set up differently in different circumstances.  Some cities have their light rail partially use the streets like the way a streetcar/trolley would.  I suppose if it was totally on the street the entire route then it pretty much would be a streetcar/trolley.  Overall the method used mostly is having the light rail have it's own right of way.  While light rail used to use a different gauge of tracks than railroads newer light rail systems seem to be using the same gauge with then allows them to use the same tracks as railroads.  The newer light rails cars also seem to be lower to the ground compared to other systems like streetcars and other rail transit systems.  Being lower to the ground allows better access by disabled people and also lets you not have to rely on expensive raising platforms so that disabled people can have access to the system.  Looks like many light rail systems use an overheard power line.  Some use an electrified third rail.  Although there are some newer systems that have come out with a specialized electrified third rail that only comes on when the train is above it.  Sounds like it's mainly being used in Europe but some of the newer light rail systems in the US have this as well.  There's also the diesel powered light rail systems.  Once again usually found in Europe but some of the newer systems in the US run on this as well.  
Looking at all this info it would be nice that if we ever developed a light rail system that it had it's own right of way and had the specialized third rail function.  But that's also probably the most expensive set up as well.  Being more practical I think the easier set up for our area would be using the exiting railroad tracks as much as possible and while probably not very aesthetic looking, I'm guessing overheard power lines might be the best power method.

[Mith242]

zman9810, on Aug 1 2009, 12:32 PM, said:

I hope the idea isn't to do away with rail freight service- that would be a terrible idea. There three ways to deliver freight- rail, truck and air and very little is delivered by air. That's leaves rail and truck and as the price of diesel rises it will cost more to deliver by truck. That leaves rail as the wave of the future, I would think. For NWA to not have freight rail service would put a big crimp in any future economic development plans.

Oh no, I agree you can't get rid of the A&M railroad.  While it doesn't seem to run as frequently as other railroads in the state, topography probably being one issue, I also agree it would be stupid to do away with the railroad.  As Mr Luoni mentioned at the meeting, rail is a much better option to ship freight than using the roads.  I just think there's would be a way to allow both to use the same tracks.  As was mentioned more of the freight could use the nighttime and free up time during the day for light rail service.  But I don't know if you'd have to have light rail running constantly during the daytime either.  So there would seem to be some allotment of time during the day for some freight as well.

[akahogfan]

One thing that I have not heard mention is the possibility of moving the A&M railroad. Not sure as to how much it would cost, but if NWA could purchase ROW to the west of all the cities and have the line go through Bentonville to make up for the extension to the walmart HQ. It seems like it would be cheaper than purchasing ROW inside the city limits for light rail. A&M gets new track, and we get the old without having to share. Since the cost is already going to be $1 Billion plus, I don't think that a few million will make a huge difference. Also, if placed correctly, it seems like the line would help to stem some sprawl.

Here are a few alternative lines that I thought of. I guess that it would also be possible to have the line even farther west, but I didn't want to put any more time into drawing right now.

http://maps.google.c...1b3c3c7d8085fcb

[Mith242]

akafish77, on Aug 1 2009, 08:16 PM, said:

One thing that I have not heard mention is the possibility of moving the A&M railroad. Not sure as to how much it would cost, but if NWA could purchase ROW to the west of all the cities and have the line go through Bentonville to make up for the extension to the walmart HQ. It seems like it would be cheaper than purchasing ROW inside the city limits for light rail. A&M gets new track, and we get the old without having to share. Since the cost is already going to be $1 Billion plus, I don't think that a few million will make a huge difference. Also, if placed correctly, it seems like the line would help to stem some sprawl.

Here are a few alternative lines that I thought of. I guess that it would also be possible to have the line even farther west, but I didn't want to put any more time into drawing right now.

http://maps.google.c...1b3c3c7d8085fcb

It's an interesting idea.  I noticed you picked an eastern route.  But I think a western route would be more likely.  On the east side of some of the NWA cities the topography is quite a bit more hilly.  While overall to the west tends to be flatter.  Also Some of the bigger NWA businesses are also going to want to have their access to the rail.  I think companies like JB Hunt and Tyson are more on the western sides of their respective cities and would have easier access towards that direction.  I guess what I'm curious to see is if they can share the rail with A&M how much that will cut down on costs.  Really all you would have to do then is extend the spur in Bentonville more to the west then extend it down to the southwest to XNA.  Of course it will cost putting in overhead power lines or some sort of third rail unless they went with the diesel method.  Then you'd have to build stations as well.  I'm not saying NWA should try to do everything the cheapest way but I am just curious to see how far down they could cut costs if they had to.  Costs could end up playing a very big factor in the end on whether light rail is accepted by enough people.

[akahogfan]

Mith242, on Aug 1 2009, 07:40 PM, said:

It's an interesting idea.  I noticed you picked an eastern route.  But I think a western route would be more likely.  On the east side of some of the NWA cities the topography is quite a bit more hilly.  While overall to the west tends to be flatter.  Also Some of the bigger NWA businesses are also going to want to have their access to the rail.  I think companies like JB Hunt and Tyson are more on the western sides of their respective cities and would have easier access towards that direction.  I guess what I'm curious to see is if they can share the rail with A&M how much that will cut down on costs.  Really all you would have to do then is extend the spur in Bentonville more to the west then extend it down to the southwest to XNA.  Of course it will cost putting in overhead power lines or some sort of third rail unless they went with the diesel method.  Then you'd have to build stations as well.  I'm not saying NWA should try to do everything the cheapest way but I am just curious to see how far down they could cut costs if they had to.  Costs could end up playing a very big factor in the end on whether light rail is accepted by enough people.

I just kind of put the eastern one in there because it was another option. Aside from the terrain, I think that it would get a lot of opposition considering the money out there. I agree that price should not be the main motivation, but the less it costs, the more likely it is to pass.

[zman9810]

akafish77, on Aug 1 2009, 08:16 PM, said:

One thing that I have not heard mention is the possibility of moving the A&M railroad. Not sure as to how much it would cost, but if NWA could purchase ROW to the west of all the cities and have the line go through Bentonville to make up for the extension to the walmart HQ. It seems like it would be cheaper than purchasing ROW inside the city limits for light rail. A&M gets new track, and we get the old without having to share. Since the cost is already going to be $1 Billion plus, I don't think that a few million will make a huge difference. Also, if placed correctly, it seems like the line would help to stem some sprawl.

Here are a few alternative lines that I thought of. I guess that it would also be possible to have the line even farther west, but I didn't want to put any more time into drawing right now.

http://maps.google.c...1b3c3c7d8085fcb

That is indeed an interesting idea although I imagine the businesses that have established facilities supplied by the train would fight it. There are several large feed mill operations including Tyson and several lumber sellers that are supplied by the railroad that it would hurt directly.  The idea is an example of thinking outside the box though.

Here's an outside the box idea that is so radical that if it happened it would probably provoke an armed rebellion but would make light rail much more feasible. I propose that the Big 4 cities of Fayetteville, Springdale , Rogers and Bentonville annex all available land in Washington and Benton Counties. This would include land within the smaller communities that the smaller communities aren't able to provide with the required municipal services. This would give the Big 4 planning authority over the land. The annexed land would be zoned agricultural reserve and restricted from development except for government mandated uses and critical infrastructure needs. The Big 4 cities would create zones for development with the I540 and existing rail line corridor as the center. The zones would reach out to aproximately the outer boundaries of the present cities and be squared off. Ordinances would mandate the least dense development at the outer edges of these zones and the most dense along the transportation corridor. Existing development would be treated with sensitivity but more density would be encouraged through infill and redevelopment. Building height restrictions would be done away with. A regional planning agency would take over all development planning for the Big 4 cities with the aim of having uniform regulations. When possible municipal services would be combined for efficency. A regional government would take over issues that concern all of the Big 4 equally resulting in more cost savings.

The results of this idea would be to save enormous amounts of money and provide a metro where light rail could thrive and sprawl would be a thing of the past. The economic and politcal  clout resulting from the unified cities would be  helpful in myriad ways. The state and federal governments would look at NWA in  whole new light. Businesses looking to relocate would see a more attractive than ever area to move to and startups would see fertile ground to grow.

Like I said - it's a radical idea- not likely to happen- but if it did the benefits would be huge.

Edited by zman9810, 02 August 2009 - 08:35 PM.

[Mith242]

zman9810, on Aug 2 2009, 09:30 PM, said:

That is indeed an interesting idea although I imagine the businesses that have established facilities supplied by the train would fight it. There are several large feed mill operations including Tyson and several lumber sellers that are supplied by the railroad that it would hurt directly.  The idea is an example of thinking outside the box though.

Here's an outside the box idea that is so radical that if it happened it would probably provoke an armed rebellion but would make light rail much more feasible. I propose that the Big 4 cities of Fayetteville, Springdale , Rogers and Bentonville annex all available land in Washington and Benton Counties. This would include land within the smaller communities that the smaller communities aren't able to provide with the required municipal services. This would give the Big 4 planning authority over the land. The annexed land would be zoned agricultural reserve and restricted from development except for government mandated uses and critical infrastructure needs. The Big 4 cities would create zones for development with the I540 and existing rail line corridor as the center. The zones would reach out to approximately the outer boundaries of the present cities and be squared off. Ordinances would mandate the least dense development at the outer edges of these zones and the most dense along the transportation corridor. Existing development would be treated with sensitivity but more density would be encouraged through infill and redevelopment. Building height restrictions would be done away with. A regional planning agency would take over all development planning for the Big 4 cities with the aim of having uniform regulations. When possible municipal services would be combined for efficiency. A regional government would take over issues that concern all of the Big 4 equally resulting in more cost savings.

The results of this idea would be to save enormous amounts of money and provide a metro where light rail could thrive and sprawl would be a thing of the past. The economic and political  clout resulting from the unified cities would be  helpful in myriad ways. The state and federal governments would look at NWA in  whole new light. Businesses looking to relocate would see a more attractive than ever area to move to and startups would see fertile ground to grow.

Like I said - it's a radical idea- not likely to happen- but if it did the benefits would be huge.

It's an interesting idea.  Sorta reminds me of an idea I had a year or two ago about the NWA cities merging but keeping their differences by remaining as 'boroughs'.  Like you said, concentrating things in some sort of manner would certainly help.  It's one of the things that does make things more difficult here in NWA.  I'm not sure we'll ever get these types of consolidations.  But at some point I do think the metro will get large enough that at least the cities will start working together more efficiently.  But it would be nice if we could get some consolidation to help with some of these matters.

[akahogfan]

zman9810, on Aug 2 2009, 08:30 PM, said:

That is indeed an interesting idea although I imagine the businesses that have established facilities supplied by the train would fight it. There are several large feed mill operations including Tyson and several lumber sellers that are supplied by the railroad that it would hurt directly.  The idea is an example of thinking outside the box though.

Here's an outside the box idea that is so radical that if it happened it would probably provoke an armed rebellion but would make light rail much more feasible. I propose that the Big 4 cities of Fayetteville, Springdale , Rogers and Bentonville annex all available land in Washington and Benton Counties. This would include land within the smaller communities that the smaller communities aren't able to provide with the required municipal services. This would give the Big 4 planning authority over the land. The annexed land would be zoned agricultural reserve and restricted from development except for government mandated uses and critical infrastructure needs. The Big 4 cities would create zones for development with the I540 and existing rail line corridor as the center. The zones would reach out to aproximately the outer boundaries of the present cities and be squared off. Ordinances would mandate the least dense development at the outer edges of these zones and the most dense along the transportation corridor. Existing development would be treated with sensitivity but more density would be encouraged through infill and redevelopment. Building height restrictions would be done away with. A regional planning agency would take over all development planning for the Big 4 cities with the aim of having uniform regulations. When possible municipal services would be combined for efficency. A regional government would take over issues that concern all of the Big 4 equally resulting in more cost savings.

The results of this idea would be to save enormous amounts of money and provide a metro where light rail could thrive and sprawl would be a thing of the past. The economic and politcal  clout resulting from the unified cities would be  helpful in myriad ways. The state and federal governments would look at NWA in  whole new light. Businesses looking to relocate would see a more attractive than ever area to move to and startups would see fertile ground to grow.

Like I said - it's a radical idea- not likely to happen- but if it did the benefits would be huge.

I don't think that you can even see the box from there. : )

I understand the purpose behind it though. However, many of the goals could be accomplished now, there just is not enough political will to do so. The height restrictions for one. Also, if development is limited on the edges of Fayetteville, it is unlikely that businesses would locate themselves just outside the border as most of the client el would live inside the city.

On a slightly different note, I think that it is interesting that Rogers is building all of the towers these days. Sure that is where most of the business is and they need the hotels too, but I don't understand why Fayetteville is balking, especially when Fayetteville considers itself to be progressive. If Rogers and Fayetteville were to bookend the light rail project, and then the short extension to Bentonville, I really do not see how the other two could stop it. If they want a station or two in those cities they pay up. In many ways Rogers is becoming conducive to light rail. I do understand that it is not there yet, but can anyone really say that Fayetteville is. Get Rogers on board, and I think that it shortens the process time by years.Maybe even a decade.

[Mith242]

akafish77, on Aug 3 2009, 05:53 AM, said:

I don't think that you can even see the box from there. : )

I understand the purpose behind it though. However, many of the goals could be accomplished now, there just is not enough political will to do so. The height restrictions for one. Also, if development is limited on the edges of Fayetteville, it is unlikely that businesses would locate themselves just outside the border as most of the client el would live inside the city.

On a slightly different note, I think that it is interesting that Rogers is building all of the towers these days. Sure that is where most of the business is and they need the hotels too, but I don't understand why Fayetteville is balking, especially when Fayetteville considers itself to be progressive. If Rogers and Fayetteville were to bookend the light rail project, and then the short extension to Bentonville, I really do not see how the other two could stop it. If they want a station or two in those cities they pay up. In many ways Rogers is becoming conducive to light rail. I do understand that it is not there yet, but can anyone really say that Fayetteville is. Get Rogers on board, and I think that it shortens the process time by years.Maybe even a decade.

As far as Benton County goes I could see Bentonville getting on board.  Especially if they could get a station somewhere near Crystal Bridges.  I could see a station near Crystal Bridges being a big asset for them.