35 replies to this topic

[distortedlogic]

I suppose this is a spin-off of the popular yearly wish lists but as we get ready to start a new decade I thought it would be both appropriate and fun to discuss this. In thinking about my last couple of yearly wish lists, almost all of them have yet to come to pass. Some could perhaps be blamed on the recession, but others I think were just way too ambitious. I do not want to limit this to DT or construction, it can be anything Greenville (and could therefore include other parts of the upstate). What is your list for 2020? What kinds of developments would you like to see by 2020? Do you have any predictions? What is realistic? THink about all the developments since 2000 for comparison.

My wish list for 2020:
1. By 2020 a landmark project will have finally come to the Gateway site (it has already been more than 12 years!).
2. Riverplace will be nearing completion
3. A good low cost carrier will be located at GSP with at least several routes, including a Denver and West Coast route.
4. Some Qulaity development will have come to the southern connector, at least enough to show progress and a good start for the next decade.
6. (Have to throw this one in there) A new tallest for Greeville will at least be underway, one that will actually happen and not just die.
7. At least 3 of the major holes DT will have been filled with something of quality ( Not including Gateway); ie Woolworth site, Peacock site, and one other.

8. CUICAR will have added 3 new quality tennants that are up and running.
9. A much improved bus system of some kind will be in use.
10. Though I don't think it will happen, a redeveloped County Sq will have been at least announced.
11. The "Go" and "Blue Wall" centers will be drawing residents and visitors alike.
12. At least 2 other major projects/investments of some kind will be announced; could be anything, a new HQ, new auto company, etc.
13. The federal courthouse will be completed.
14. I85 will be 8 lanes through Gville county with 385/Woodruff interchange redeveloped.
15. I385 will be 6 lanes from Simpsonville through DT.
16. City arteries will have new psoitive development; Pete Hollis, Poinsett, W Hampton, Church, Augusta, etc.
17. New attactions not currently DT will be there, especially a cinema and a nice bowling alley/pool hall.

For now this is my wish list, but I may add some more later. I actually think this is pretty realistic except for the county sq and the new tallest ones. As with the last couple of years though, a lot of it will have to do with the economy as it could be years before things really get back going again. The new decade could very well be much quieter than the last depending.

[Greenville]

While I understand the need to be realistic, I think your list is underestimating Greenville and the GSP metro area.  We are talking about ten years here.  I realize that I tend to be an optimist, but as I read your list I thought that it could easily be considered fairly realistic for the next 2-4 years (with a significant portion of it being realistic for 2010 alone).

Sure, we have had some big projects that have not come to fruition, but despite that we have made some amazing strides since 2000.  Just think about how very different the West End is now compared to 2000.  Remember the drive down I-85 between Laurens Road and Woodruff Road in 2000, compared to now?  Remember what the areas that now house Greenridge and The Point looked like ten years ago?  Remember what Camperdown Way and the Reedy River Falls looked like in 2000?  You get the point.  Dramatically different on all counts!

Us urban development fanatics tend to get down when a project fails to materialize, but we must remember that Greenville is a steadily growing metro poised for a boom like never before (population, construction, etc.).  Word is getting out about how great the upstate of SC is - and more specifically, Greenville and its downtown.  It is only a matter of time before things take off even more than they already have, and I think chances are good we will see that within the next decade.  With it will come a lot of great developments that will occur quickly due to demand and growth.

I'm not sure what my wish list for 2020 will include, but it will certainly take into account the above mentioned factors.  This is an exciting time for Greenville!  

Edited by Greenville, 28 December 2009 - 11:36 PM.

[distortedlogic]

Well try to come up with a list to share with us, I would be intrested to see it. I certainly understand your point, and perhaps my list is a bit conservative, but I also note that some of the things on my my list are the very things that have have not already happened despite years of working planning and speculating. The gateway site and low-fare air carrier have been attempted for over ten years each. I am not sure that 10 years is as much time as we think it is in terms of development, and many have stated that things seem to take forever around here. Remember that my list is sort of preliminary, but I would be very surprised if every one of them comes true by 2020.

[Greenville]

distortedlogic, on 29 December 2009 - 10:27 AM, said:

Well try to come up with a list to share with us, I would be intrested to see it. I certainly understand your point, and perhaps my list is a bit conservative, but I also note that some of the things on my my list are the very things that have have not already happened despite years of working planning and speculating. The gateway site and low-fare air carrier have been attempted for over ten years each. I am not sure that 10 years is as much time as we think it is in terms of development, and many have stated that things seem to take forever around here. Remember that my list is sort of preliminary, but I would be very surprised if every one of them comes true by 2020.

Your point that some of the items on your list (low fare air carrier, Gateway site) have been attempted for over 10 years each is very valid.  I see your point that history isn't encouraging when it comes to these two projects.

Although it's easy to be down on GSP International for not recruiting a big time low fare airline like Southwest yet, I don't think it is fair to blame the new management for the failures of prior management.  With regard to the Gateway site, the city seems to have renewed interest in making the site a success - I'm not sure that was the case 5-10 years ago.  Who knows if that will make a difference, but I choose to believe that it will - rather than that it won't.

You mentioned that "things seem to take forever around here."  What makes you say that?  Do you truly believe that?  Can you not see the amazing progress we have made to our downtown in the last 10 years?  Do you really think there are more than a handful of metros that can say they have experienced the improvements we have over that time?

Edited by Greenville, 29 December 2009 - 01:05 PM.

[gsupstate]

If this weren't such a "the glass is half empty thread" I may post a list....but not really worth it.  I will say this, anyone that thinks 10 years is a short time for developments, just look at what downtown Greenville was in 1993 (I wasn't here then, but I heard it was a wasteland).  BMW comes into play in 93/94 and within 10 years, by 2003 (I was here then) Greenville had developed its downtown into one of the premier downtowns in the south / nation.

My list would probably be quite agressive as I understand the drive of Greenville to continue to grow and prosper.

[distortedlogic]

gsupstate, on 29 December 2009 - 01:06 PM, said:

If this weren't such a "the glass is half empty thread" I may post a list....but not really worth it.  I will say this, anyone that thinks 10 years is a short time for developments, just look at what downtown Greenville was in 1993 (I wasn't here then, but I heard it was a wasteland).  BMW comes into play in 93/94 and within 10 years, by 2003 (I was here then) Greenville had developed its downtown into one of the premier downtowns in the south / nation.

My list would probably be quite agressive as I understand the drive of Greenville to continue to grow and prosper.

By all means please post it. If you guys think my list is way too conservative then i would like to see some other opinions. You all know that I tend to get impatient on things like this but that is not a reason not to post. What are you guys hoping for? Realistic could mean different things to different people, I just mean that my list won't include things like Gville having a pop of 300k or there being 10 30 storey towers; things like that. Indeed a lot has happened in 10 years, as I pointed out. (I even started a Greenville 1999 thread once showing all of the changes). I am sure that many unforeseen developments will happen as well. I guess 10 years is a long time for some developments, but not long for others. For example, the West end can develop hugely in 10 years, but we have seen that some of the projects, CUICAR, Verdae are 20 year plans, so 10 years is not a great length of time. And other projects like Gateway and even the Fed Ct House have been in the works for many years without fruit, so 10 years is not a long time in some developments like those. SO, everyone may have different ideas on what will happen in this next 10 year period. I think we can all agree that the potential is great. So please don't be afraid to post your own list for us to see. If you guys have larger visions I would love to see them. For the record, I do not think this is a "half empty' thread at all. For one thing, it does not have enough discussion yet to say. As for my last post, I was just attempting to explain to Greenville what might make some items on my list seem conservative. And in looking at my list, I think it adressed many areas of the metro, from air and bus travel to the Southern Connector and interstates, to DT and county sq. I do not think it fails to give Gville credit or is half-empty at all; rather I feel that if these things all happened by 2020 it would represent an incredible decade of growht for Gville.

Edited by distortedlogic, 29 December 2009 - 09:27 PM.

[gvegascple]

My wish list for 2020:
1. By 2020 a landmark project will have finally come to the Gateway site (it has already been more than 12 years!). -

Eh, not so into the whole Gateway thing, I would be happy with any use of this spot, as long as it doesnt mess up the traffic artery into downtown and hopefully compliments the surrounding area.

2. Riverplace will be nearing completion - definately agree

3. A good low cost carrier will be located at GSP with at least several routes, including a Denver and West Coast route. - Agree

4. Some Qulaity development will have come to the southern connector, at least enough to show progress and a good start for the next decade.  - This might be 2030

6. (Have to throw this one in there) A new tallest for Greeville will at least be underway, one that will actually happen and not just die. - I dont see any value in this yet, too much available space currently, this potentially could hurt downtown in the short term.

7. At least 3 of the major holes DT will have been filled with something of quality ( Not including Gateway); ie Woolworth site, Peacock site, and one other. - Definately agree, especially with Woolworth (crossing fingers for Nat'l Chain Bookstore to be included)

8. CUICAR will have added 3 new quality tennants that are up and running. - agree

9. A much improved bus system of some kind will be in use. - not sure how bad the current one is

10. Though I don't think it will happen, a redeveloped County Sq will have been at least announced. - why is the current one so bad (besides dated architechture?)

11. The "Go" and "Blue Wall" centers will be drawing residents and visitors alike. - Agree, but have been iffy with this, seems extremely expensive and will go down as another one of Greenville's most risky untertaking's if they pull the trigger on it.

12. At least 2 other major projects/investments of some kind will be announced; could be anything, a new HQ, new auto company, etc.- 2? In ten years, I would like to see more than that!

13. The federal courthouse will be completed.  - Aggree

14. I85 will be 8 lanes through Gville county with 385/Woodruff interchange redeveloped. - Definately

15. I385 will be 6 lanes from Simpsonville through DT. - ugh, only if someone traffic is diverted to the various parts of downtown better, this could be a huge congestion problem and also sends a lot of high speed traffic accross main at Beatie and E. North which I find dangerous to pedistrians and a potential bookend to any future North Main Development.

16. City arteries will have new psoitive development; Pete Hollis, Poinsett, W Hampton, Church, Augusta, etc. - Yep

17. New attactions not currently DT will be there, especially a cinema and a nice bowling alley/pool hall.  - The west end definately needs an art house cinema to help further spur the art/warehouse district


I'd like to also add a few more off the top of my head..


18.  An Orange-Peel like venue to bring more live music on a scale larger than the Handlebar but smaller than Bilo to downtown or near downtown.  If the Handlebar owners wont do it, someone else should.

19.  A full time indoor/outdoor market up north main between Academy and Stone to help anchor future development in that area and better connect all of Main as a pedestrian/consumer experiance.  A larger, permanent and definately polished place for local artists and farmers to sell goods.

20. Better use of the outdoor concert venue in Simpsonville, perhaps more like Wolftrap does it with a very nice mix of indoor/outdoor seating and events that are diverse (inclue pop/country music and more cultural events such as symphony and opera)

21.  Save Augusta road, this artery is dying on the vine for some reason

22.  Reputable Culinary Arts school downtown with help from local chef's and Tyler florence

[Birdbrain]

Wow, looking back at 2000, "we" really have come a long way. (glass half-full, eh?)

Just a few items this beautiful city needs... NEEDS....

1) A (tacky or otherwise) tourist attraction.  Six Flags Over Greer, or a LARGE water park, or a huge bleeping museum, Green Vegas, or even a Shoeless Joe-Land; but SOMETHING. I don't think global warming will make Mauldin a beach resort in time, darn.  

2) Downtown bars. Hold on, don't crucify me yet.  Georgetown in Washington D.C. for example.  M Street in Georgetown featured bar after bar, then a nice boutique and a restaurant or two, followed by bar after bar.  It brought in many people at night, and the place flourished.  After a while, the boutiques and restaurants pushed out many of the bars, and the place still thrives.

3) A real, honest-to-goodness German-Bavarian Bakery.  If you've been, you know.  Not so fast, there, Straussner's.

4) A signature landmark on the so-called "skyline."  Just 60 or so floors for residential and shopping.  More residents downtown, more support needed like shops, etc. Cascade effect.

5) Continued City Planning that made Main Street/Falls Park a "jewel." But one street does not a downtown make, as much as we'd like to think so. The plans for the "hubs" are there, let's turn some dirt!

6) OK -- this is not a need but a personal want.  How about Double- or Triple-A baseball in the nation's best new ballpark?  Better players, more "next great stars," and thus more attendence.  Perhaps they can also get a team name not created by folks with no sports experience at all.  Drive?  REALLY???  John Elway is spinning in his, er, recliner.

[gvegascple]

Birdbrain, on 04 January 2010 - 02:56 PM, said:

Wow, looking back at 2000, "we" really have come a long way. (glass half-full, eh?)

Just a few items this beautiful city needs... NEEDS....

1) A (tacky or otherwise) tourist attraction.  Six Flags Over Greer, or a LARGE water park, or a huge bleeping museum, Green Vegas, or even a Shoeless Joe-Land; but SOMETHING. I don't think global warming will make Mauldin a beach resort in time, darn.  

2) Downtown bars. Hold on, don't crucify me yet.  Georgetown in Washington D.C. for example.  M Street in Georgetown featured bar after bar, then a nice boutique and a restaurant or two, followed by bar after bar.  It brought in many people at night, and the place flourished.  After a while, the boutiques and restaurants pushed out many of the bars, and the place still thrives.

3) A real, honest-to-goodness German-Bavarian Bakery.  If you've been, you know.  Not so fast, there, Straussner's.

4) A signature landmark on the so-called "skyline."  Just 60 or so floors for residential and shopping.  More residents downtown, more support needed like shops, etc. Cascade effect.

5) Continued City Planning that made Main Street/Falls Park a "jewel." But one street does not a downtown make, as much as we'd like to think so. The plans for the "hubs" are there, let's turn some dirt!

6) OK -- this is not a need but a personal want.  How about Double- or Triple-A baseball in the nation's best new ballpark?  Better players, more "next great stars," and thus more attendence.  Perhaps they can also get a team name not created by folks with no sports experience at all.  Drive?  REALLY???  John Elway is spinning in his, er, recliner.

And there goes this thread...

[distortedlogic]

gvegascple, thanks for replying. I like the ideas you added and I think those are definitely doable. There was an article recently about the simpsonville ampitheater is now going to be run by the same committee that plans events for the Bilo center, which sounds like an great thing. This should help avoid competition and promote complimentation. BTW just to clarify a couple on my list that you commented on; for 385 I was mainly talking about the "gap" that is still only 4 lanes through Mauldin. I think we heard that they may start this in 2013, so I put it on my list as something that I would definitely like to see happen and completed (ie not delayed or cancelled) by 2020, along with the redo of the interchange. Also, for the 2 major investments; note that I put "major." I am thinking along the lines of what Rolls Royce or Audi would have been, not a more minor HQ relocation for 30 jobs or something like that (not that those are not welcome too.). I was thinking very large scale that affects the entiore region kinda thing!

[GSP Tiger]

1.)  The City of Greenville will have an ordinance requiring all high rise structures to meet a minimum height.  New structures being built will attempt to maximize their height to develop visibility in a skyline and develop space for businesses and residences.

2.)  Rail transit will be in some form of constuction and operation connecting Travelers Rest to Fountain Inn, and Clemson to Spartanburg.

3.)  A low cost first run multiplex cinema will be operating in Greenville's west end.

4.)  The City of Greenville will have an ordinance requiring any structures with three or more years vacancy to be demolished.

5.)  An interstate highway through western Greenville County between the Saluda River and White Horse Road provides access to Easley, Berea and Travelers Rest will be realized.

6.)  Greenville has a new main post office.

7.)  Beattie Place and College Avenue are reduced to two to three lanes to match up North Street.  This forces commercial traffic to use Academy Street.

8.)  A modern food/drug combination grocer opens a large scale location in the North Main/Stone Avenue and South Academy areas.

9.)  A national restaurant is open in downtown.  Must be Applebee's, Fuddrucker's, Ruby Tuesday, or nothing.

[Skyliner]

Fuddrucker's was on Main Street and was very nice to have there, but I don't blame them for moving.  Blue Ridge Brewing Company is a very nice alternative, in my opinion.

[GSP Tiger]

Skyliner, on 14 April 2010 - 12:37 AM, said:

Fuddrucker's was on Main Street and was very nice to have there, but I don't blame them for moving.  Blue Ridge Brewing Company is a very nice alternative, in my opinion.

Fuddrucker's did not move, they closed.  It was the best performing South Carolina location throughout its existence.  Many businesses at 221 North Main have failed miserably since Fuddrucker's closed.  A burger specialty restuarant, like Fuddrucker's, is what Greenville needs.

[Jael]

BoDragon, on 14 April 2010 - 12:45 AM, said:

A burger specialty restuarant, like Fuddrucker's, is what Greenville needs.

I agree.  When I used to work in downtown Greenville, I really appreciated having Fuddrucker's, Bertolo's and Chick-fil-A handy.

[adrockc2]

BoDragon, on 14 April 2010 - 12:15 AM, said:

9.)  A national restaurant is open in downtown.  Must be Applebee's, Fuddrucker's, Ruby Tuesday, or nothing.

Yeah, there really aren't enough people vomiting downtown already. And we could certainly use more diarrhea in the city.

[SouthernYankee]

adrockc2, on 14 April 2010 - 12:23 PM, said:

Yeah, there really aren't enough people vomiting downtown already. And we could certainly use more diarrhea in the city.

Thank you! I don't understand the obsession with chain restaurants. If you want a good burger joint downtown, great, I'm all for it. Why does it have to be Fuddruckers? I don't necessarily have any problem with them, but let's be real, they're as much about the 'ambiance' as the food. National chains will detract from downtown's uniqueness. I don't think that's what we need at all.

[Greenville]

If the downtown Fuddrucker's was so successful, why did it close?  And why hasn't someone else seen the void it left behind and opened one to replace it?

[GSP Tiger]

Greenville, on 14 April 2010 - 01:42 PM, said:

If the downtown Fuddrucker's was so successful, why did it close?  And why hasn't someone else seen the void it left behind and opened one to replace it?

The franchisee wanted to try mexican cuisine.  Having a successful stream of customers in that location and immediate area, they thought they can use that clientale for the new venture.  That idea failed horridly.

Today, the gathering area in downtown is no longer on North Main; it is the West End.  Fuddrucker's in the West End would be awesome.

[Greenville]

BoDragon, on 15 April 2010 - 06:43 AM, said:

The franchisee wanted to try mexican cuisine.  Having a successful stream of customers in that location and immediate area, they thought they can use that clientale for the new venture.  That idea failed horridly.

Today, the gathering area in downtown is no longer on North Main; it is the West End.  Fuddrucker's in the West End would be awesome.

Fuddrucker's would do well in the West End, especially before and after Drive games.  I would hate to see it negatively affect Liberty Tap Room, Mojito's, etc. though.

[StrangeCock]

God, I miss that Chick-fil-a.