29 replies to this topic

[vitaviatic]

Oh, man! Reading this topic is kinda like walking into a high school bathroom and seeing a couple of adolescent boys (with some identity issues) comparing their tools. Pretty sophomoric!

BTW...While there is nothing wrong with a healthy dose of civic pride, there is a line between being a civic booster and flat out boorishness. I saw the N&O article that spawned all of this -- again -- and I thought it was crap. The author made comparisons (in couched language to be sure) to venerable places like Pittsburgh, St. Louis, and then the real headscratcher -- Minneapolis??? By any measure, all of these places would be recognized as cities by people outside of the Carolinas long before either Raleigh or Charlotte would, if simply on reputation and/or history. Even by the American "caveman" reference of a city's might, all three of these cities sport multiple, upper echelon, professional sports franchises -- not just one or two. And while St. Louis and Pittsburgh are often sold short (unjustly so I personally think), Minneapolis is an absolute stud of a city (with all of the "Big Four" leagues covered, I might add), with as much financial muscle as Charlotte (probably more, if the measure is not just of banks alone), plus a research base that rivals the Triangle. All three have skylines as big as Charlotte's and way bigger than Raleigh's.

My intent is not to denigrate Charlotte or Raleigh. Both are growing and prosperous. Most all of us on the outside are happy for you. But your yardstick of success is a bit skewed. Jacksonville has 150,000 more people than Boston. Does anybody here have the huevos to insist that Jax is more of a city than Beantown? Just be careful about beating your own chest at the expense of others. (Not that they care.) It is very unseemly.

Edited by vitaviatic, 22 July 2010 - 12:59 PM.

[cityboi]

krazeeboi, on 18 July 2010 - 06:48 PM, said:

Not really. The stats speak pretty clear in that regard.


If that were to happen, it will definitely take some time. You don't overcome a 300,000 difference in population in a decade. I think city population is going to start leveling out for both cities within the coming years to a certain extent because both are running out of room to annex.

The leveling off could also reflect a future growth spurt in the Triad cities of Greensboro and Winston-Salem and even Burlington. Eventually Charlotte and the Triangle will become  over saturated markets and companies and developers will be looking at the next rising urban area in the state (the Triad) The Triad sits between Charlotte and the Triangle so its only a matter of time. The FedEx Hub, HondaJet, triad research parks, multiple new interstates, downtown redevelopment are just a beginning of whats to come in the Triad. Guilford County is creeping up on half a million people and it wont be long before Greensboro hits 300,000. About 12 years ago Greensboro had 198,000 people. Today Greensboro has about 260,000. BTW Guilford and Wake counties are the only counties in the state that have two cities over 100,000 residents. Cary in Wake County has over 100,000 and High Point in Guilford County has over 100,000.

Edited by cityboi, 22 July 2010 - 02:14 PM.

[Urbanity]

cityboi, on 22 July 2010 - 02:03 PM, said:

The leveling off could also reflect a future growth spurt in the Triad cities of Greensboro and Winston-Salem and even Burlington. Eventually Charlotte and the Triangle will become  over saturated markets and companies and developers will be looking at the next rising urban area in the state (the Triad) The Triad sits between Charlotte and the Triangle so its only a matter of time. The FedEx Hub, HondaJet, triad research parks, multiple new interstates, downtown redevelopment are just a beginning of whats to come in the Triad. Guilford County is creeping up on half a million people and it wont be long before Greensboro hits 300,000. About 12 years ago Greensboro had 198,000 people. Today Greensboro has about 260,000. BTW Guilford and Wake counties are the only counties in the state that have two cities over 100,000 residents. Cary in Wake County has over 100,000 and High Point in Guilford County has over 100,000.

I don't think anyone disputes the need for growth in all of North Carolina's urban areas and I don't believe anyone would think the developments you listed for the triad are anything but terrific, but I think you're making long and questionable reaches here. I bolded the section where I'm specifically referencing.  

As already been notated by Unifour, Charlotte has four counties that are in the 200,000 range and they are growing and with Mecklenburg at the 900K area - your statement of being a matter of time translates realistically to not within more than a few decades in the least in my humble opinion.  

I just don't understand the need to want to be the next Charlotte as far as population  (just I don't understand some of Charlotte's want to be the next Atlanta).  It's not a way to grow or want to grow.  Each city has its strengths and that is what should be the focus.  Mecklenburg is the most urbanized county and it will continue to attract those who like it and lose people who don't.  Though frankly, I think Greenville and/or Spartanburg should be in your calculations as I think they are just as likely to get growth based on your theory.

Personally I am happy to cede Wake as the largest County in North Carolina population wise.  It doesn't affect anything I feel or think about in regards to Charlotte or Mecklenburg.

Just my 2 cents.

Edited by Urbanity, 22 July 2010 - 05:37 PM.

[krazeeboi]

cityboi, on 22 July 2010 - 02:03 PM, said:

The leveling off could also reflect a future growth spurt in the Triad cities of Greensboro and Winston-Salem and even Burlington. Eventually Charlotte and the Triangle will become  over saturated markets and companies and developers will be looking at the next rising urban area in the state (the Triad) The Triad sits between Charlotte and the Triangle so its only a matter of time.

The leveling off of the municipal populations of Charlotte and Raleigh is merely a function of geography; the metros are still growing quite rapidly so all this means is that surrounding municipalities/counties are receiving a larger share of that growth. Metro areas have to get much, much larger than Charlotte and Raleigh currently are to even think of them as being "oversaturated." If the Triad is wanting to experience a growth spurt, it would be a very unwise and poor strategy to wait until Charlotte and Raleigh become oversaturated and position itself as an "overflow" or alternative location, because that won't be anytime soon.

[phil-king]

vitaviatic, on 22 July 2010 - 12:55 PM, said:

BTW...While there is nothing wrong with a healthy dose of civic pride, there is a line between being a civic booster and flat out boorishness....

My intent is not to denigrate Charlotte or Raleigh. Both are growing and prosperous. Most all of us on the outside are happy for you. But your yardstick of success is a bit skewed. Jacksonville has 150,000 more people than Boston. Does anybody here have the huevos to insist that Jax is more of a city than Beantown? Just be careful about beating your own chest at the expense of others. (Not that they care.) It is very unseemly.

"Boorishness"  "It is very unseemly."    

Do you write for Debutante's Weekly? While I honestly love your rhetorical style, it's not fair to take the mentality of one article in the N&O and ascribe it to the entire population of NC. Most people in the Carolinas would gladly agree that Minneapolis, Pittsburgh, and St. Louis are larger, and more established than Charlotte or Raleigh.  Yet again, that doesn't mean that Charlotte can't go toe to toe with St. Louis and Pittsburgh when comparing things like size of GMP or financial prowess. RTP on the other hand has, well, The RTP. Very few places in the world can match The Research Triangle Park in terms scope, scale, and quality of research. Not even Pittsburgh's Oakland area (home Pitt and CMU) can do that. People from both cities often feel that because of their relatively modest populations they are denied due credit for their collective accomplishments. And, those accomplishments are substantial. So, I completely understand why people from Wake would be excited to inch past their cross state rival.

[DCMetroRaleigh]

It turns out that the Census says that in April 2000, Mecklenburg had approximately 20,000 more people than Wake, a large gap than estimated in 2009. What is clear is that Mecklenburg weathered the gripping economic downturn much better than expected and kept growing in population at a breakneck pace in spite of the profound recession.  Therefore, Mecklenburg may remain the state's largest county longer than previously forecasted.

[aceboogie]

I can't remember the official numbers but Meck was at 919k and Wake 904k, I think. But congrats to Wake and Meck as they're clearly heads and shoulders about the other counties in NC as far as growth is concerned.

[DCMetroRaleigh]

Mecklenburg weathered the recession rather well with regards to population loss.  Wake County may not catch Mecklenburg until 2013 or 2014 if the current rates continue.

Edited by DCMetroRaleigh, 25 March 2011 - 07:26 PM.

[aceboogie]

Mecklenburg definitely did good as far as weathering thins recession and I believe more sustained rates will improve to about 3% annually. Now, Wake, I expect around 4% and it will surely pass Meck soon. I actually think its cool when a states largest city, capital, and largest metro are 3 different areas.

[Skyybutter]

these numbers are really only good for bragging rights. People dont decide to visit or move to a city based on population though. They do so based on opportunity and what a city offers and lets face. SOme people will find Raleigh more attractive and some Charlotte. Its really personal preference. COngrats to Wake!