131 replies to this topic

[Sniper]

Nice work on the map! It looks like it's just a matter of time before the rest of the older properties within the rectangle of Dadeland North are leveled and made into something that fits the surrounding theme.

[Aessotariq]

^ It may happen sooner than we think; the last time I was down there I saw "coming soon" signs posted in front of the apartment buildings along the canal. Looks like they are to be torn down soon to make way for the new projects.

[metropolis]

Hey Aessotariq,

You said that there is a "coming soon" sign on the apartments/condos in front of the canal in North Dadeland?  I've seen that much of the area has been sold off, many of those complexes were rentals and they were sold to individuals as condo conversions, are those the same ones being knocked down?  Does anyone know how that works?  Can a developer buy out an entire complex of home owners?  Do they need a majority vote or 100%?  How's that work?

When I saw that these beat up, old rentals were becoming condo conversions I was very let down, because I figured that once these were in the hands of individuals, they would never get knocked down and re-developed.

-Metropolis

[Aessotariq]

Now that I think about it, it's unclear... it hadn't dawned on me that they could be conversions. A buyout of the complex would require a vote and then the developer has to buy each individual unit. The percentage of votes required for a buyout would be stated in the condo association's by-laws.

I'll have to double check that next time I'm down there. I'm cringing at the thought.

[Aessotariq]

They do look like conversions.   It looks like they created little themed streets and painted each building a different color. A buyout will be harder if a new urban development is ever to be built there.

On the flipside, maybe it's a little too far west to be a good transit-oriented development (for now). Perhaps it's better to build the eastern areas close to the Metrorail stations and gradually head west.

[Paul]

I’m a resident of East Kendall who just recently spent over an hour on Kendall drive traveling from 826 to 97th Ave (just over 2 miles). Optimists say that the developments near Dadeland will make traffic lighter because of the nearby metrorail stations but this just isn't true.

Urban planners are giving Miamians far too much credit. We will NEVER replace our cars with public transportation and there is a good reason for this.

After three years of using public transportation (on a daily basis) I consider myself an expert on the subject. I know most of the important bus routes and have all of the metrorail stations memorized. Waking up at 6:30 to ride in a train car full of strangers (often without adequate seating or personal space) and getting hassled by vagrants while waiting for my bus (which was always at least 30 minutes late) provided me with more stress than school and all of my extracurriculars combined.

I’m sure that most of the people moving into condos in the area expecting to take public transportation will switch to personal transportation shortly after because of the inconveniences associated with public transportation.

As for Dadeland Station, it is not the architectural wonder that you guys have made it out to be. I don’t know if any of you remember but its grand opening was delayed because the architect didn’t meet building standards and the large opening between the parking lot and stores give most people vertigo. However, I may be biased on this because the first time I went to Dadeland Station I witnessed someone committing suicide off of the top floor...Also, if anyone has information on Dadeland Mall’s plans for meeting the new demands that it will soon be enjoying please post it.

[Brickell]

I don't want to discourage your input, but this rant comes off as curmudgeonly at best.  Is traffic bad in Kendall? Yes, but it has never taken me that long to traverse Kendall.  What is your usual drive time?  Do the bus routes need to be upgraded?  Probably, but they're usually pretty full when I ride them.  You claim that Miamians won't give up their cars, then go on to say that you hate Metrorail because it's packed.  Which is it?  Lastly, you propose to speak for residents of the Dadeland area while you live 20 blocks away.  Do you have a better place to put these people or would you prefer to just complain?


I've never considered Dadeland station to be a architectural wonder, in fact I think it's rather ugly outside of the curved neon driveways.  What it is, is a wonder of suburban density.  5 big box stores and shops on the footprint of what would normally be 1 Target. All that adjacent to a metrorail station.  Complain all you want about big box stores, but if you have to have them, then this is the way of the future.


Do you have any positive comments?  
Welcome to the forum.

[KendallKid]

Brickell, on Jul 12 2005, 04:10 PM, said:

I don't want to discourage your input, but this rant comes off as curmudgeonly at best.  Is traffic bad in Kendall? Yes, but it has never taken me that long to traverse Kendall.  What is your usual drive time?  Do the bus routes need to be upgraded?  Probably, but they're usually pretty full when I ride them.  You claim that Miamians won't give up their cars, then go on to say that you hate Metrorail because it's packed.  Which is it?  Lastly, you propose to speak for residents of the Dadeland area while you live 20 blocks away.  Do you have a better place to put these people or would you prefer to just complain?
I've never considered Dadeland station to be a architectural wonder, in fact I think it's rather ugly outside of the curved neon driveways.  What it is, is a wonder of suburban density.  5 big box stores and shops on the footprint of what would normally be 1 Target. All that adjacent to a metrorail station.  Complain all you want about big box stores, but if you have to have them, then this is the way of the future.
Do you have any positive comments? 
Welcome to the forum.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Very well said Brickell I couldnt agree with you more on every point u just made. But i am going to add something to it. The fact remains that Miamians ARE trading their cars in for the public transportation. Gas prices and traffic are too expensive and bad respectively. My mother was adamant about driving to work, I forced her to take public transportation and she was sold. She now takes it every day to work. I have lived in kendall 23 years and i can assure you it has NEVER taken me that long to traverse the area u said.

[metropolis]

Let's imagine for a moment that Miamians who will soon occupy (in large numbers) the Dadeland area decide to stick to their cars.  Well, that means that a few thousand people, whom will be living within a few blocks of each other, will be driving their cars to work and back at the same time each day.  This will cause a ridiculous amount of traffic.  What's the solution?  To force these folks to take the Metrorail.  
<P>
The reason for placing all this housing next to the Metrorail stations is to do just that, force people to take public transportation.  Because we live in a society where we all want our individual space, it's going to be tough to train people to take the Metro, but if it's a choice between a 20 minute train ride or an hour long traffic jam, I'll choose the first one, and so will the residents of this area.
<p>
The future residents of the Dadeland condos know what they're getting into and I'm sure they've contemplated the idea of taking public transportation before signing their half a million dollar sales contracts on those condos.
<p>
By the way, many couples that I met when I went to pick my carpet and tile and kitchen counters at the Metropolis condo that I bought, were older, retired folks.  These people are not needing to go any where during rush hour except for the Krispy Kreme across the street (by foot).
<p>
Though I'm buying this condo as a rental, I plan on moving into it down the road and for me it's perfect because #1 I work from home and don't have to worry about traffic and at the same time can enjoy all the amenities of the towers as well as the retail & #2 my spouse is a nurse at a hospital that's about 10 blocks away!  I'm sure we're not the only ones in similar situations.

[Paul]

Wow, I got a lot of feedback for that little post...I didn’t mean to upset you guys so much. I’m actually really interested in Urbanism and the developments in Dadeland (if not I would have never found this site.) However, just because the site is devoted to Urbanism doesn’t mean that everyone who posts must present only positive opinions because that defeats the purpose of the forum... Anyways, I got a few refutations:

My statement about the Metrorail being packed didn’t contradict my earlier statement that Miamians won’t give up their cars. The reason the metrorail is packed isn’t because of its popularity but because of it’s inadequacy. If the metrorail had as many cars as mass transit systems in New York, Boston, or D.C., the cars would be mostly empty.

Also, I never claimed to be a resident of Dadeland (which has never really had residents to my knowledge). I do, however, live close enough to Dadeland that I drive past it almost every day (20 blocks isn’t that far considering Dadeland mall is about 10 blocks long.)

Furthermore, Brickell, do YOU have any positive comments? I think your post came out just as hostile as mine.

Lastly, Krispy Kreme?! I thought it got moved to sunset and US1. Now I will have three out of the four Miami Krispy Kremes within 3 miles!

[KendallKid]

Paul, on Jul 14 2005, 04:29 PM, said:

Wow, I got a lot of feedback for that little post...I didn’t mean to upset you guys so much. I’m actually really interested in Urbanism and the developments in Dadeland (if not I would have never found this site.) However, just because the site is devoted to Urbanism doesn’t mean that everyone who posts must present only positive opinions because that defeats the purpose of the forum... Anyways, I got a few refutations:

My statement about the Metrorail being packed didn’t contradict my earlier statement that Miamians won’t give up their cars. The reason the metrorail is packed isn’t because of its popularity but because of it’s inadequacy. If the metrorail had as many cars as mass transit systems in New York, Boston, or D.C., the cars would be mostly empty.

Also, I never claimed to be a resident of Dadeland (which has never really had residents to my knowledge). I do, however, live close enough to Dadeland that I drive past it almost every day (20 blocks isn’t that far considering Dadeland mall is about 10 blocks long.)

Furthermore, Brickell, do YOU have any positive comments? I think your post came out just as hostile as mine.

Lastly, Krispy Kreme?! I thought it got moved to sunset and US1. Now I will have three out of the four Miami Krispy Kremes within 3 miles!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What you said about the metrorail and the lack of cars just goes to show that you have not taken the metrorail as of late. The truth of the matter is that since the tax has been imposed there have been more cars then ever before. The train comes every 5 minutes with trains of at least 5-6 cars. Any more cars on the system and it would be one giant train from Hialeah to Kendall. Its inadaquecy is almost non existant these days.

[Brickell]

Paul, on Jul 14 2005, 05:29 PM, said:

Wow, I got a lot of feedback for that little post...I didn’t mean to upset you guys so much. I’m actually really interested in Urbanism and the developments in Dadeland (if not I would have never found this site.) However, just because the site is devoted to Urbanism doesn’t mean that everyone who posts must present only positive opinions because that defeats the purpose of the forum... Anyways, I got a few refutations:


Furthermore, Brickell, do YOU have any positive comments? I think your post came out just as hostile as mine.

Perhaps we should both start over.  My complain wasn't that you weren't being negative, but that you weren't being constructively so.   Complains without solutions aren't going to get us anywhere.   So I apologize and look forward to more input from another Kendall resident.

[metropolis]

by the way...as far as I know one of the confirmed tenants at Dowtown Dadeland (that's the 7 buildings...7 stories each) is Krispy Kreme, so unless that has changed, then there'll be another one there.

[Paul]

They stopped making new metrorail cars a long time ago (I'm pretty sure all of the trains are about 30 yrs old.) They just hired more drivers and are running the trains faster. You're right about the trains being less crowded now (I have ridden lately) but I didn't want this to become a discussion on the amount of train cars Miami has.

It’s not so much the speed of getting around but the discomfort of taking public transportation that discourages people. Getting from Dadeland South to my school on Virginia Key took about 30-45 minutes with public transportation and driving took about 60 every morning. However, driving was a million times more reliable.

I have never had to walk home because my car didn’t show up. I have never had any of my possessions stolen while driving home. I always get to sit down when I drive, I always have air conditioning and I’ve never been rained on while waiting for my car but none of this is guaranteed when I use public transportation.

Also, about the gas prices, I’m saving a lot more money driving my Prius than I would if I had bought a $900,000 condo and taken public transportation.

Eventually living in an urbanist’ development will not only be more convenient but it will become necessary but in my case I won’t consider doing it until it cuts off at least an hour or so off my drive time because thirty minutes can easily feel like an hour and thirty minutes on public transportation.

[Aessotariq]

Paul, welcome to UrbanPlanet and I'm glad you found us. We welcome and encourage contrasting points of view. The purpose of this forum is to inform and provide a medium by which we can exchange these viewpoints in a constructive and scholarly manner, and ideally it's in this type of discourse where we have the greatest potential to effect change where it is most needed.

Consider that we are going to be gaining at least 1 million people within the next 20-30 years. Let's assume for purposes of argument that those people will be comprised of families of 4. That's 250,000 new households, with the potential for each household to have two cars. That's 500,000 new cars on the road, on top of all the 1.5 million or so cars that are already there. If we could make it possible for families to have one less car per household, OR make it more possible for people to leave their cars at home by using clean, reliable, and safe transportation, think of all the gridlock that we could reduce.

By building residences closer together, placing grocery stores and other amenities near them, you won't have to drive to get a gallon of milk or go see a movie. Build those residences near transit nodes and suddenly it's easier and more convenient to travel long distances. That's the beauty behind TOD - transit-oriented development. When you build high-density and mix uses, i.e., don't separate houses from shopping centers from offices, you have less need to travel by car from place to place to place. Take the Towers of Dadeland, for example, across from Dadeland Station. A resident will be able to get his hair cut, get lunch, buy a sofa, shop at Target, all without getting in a car, and one Metrorail stop away is Sunset Place, where he can go see a movie. This is what we're going to have to do if we are going to be able to sustain an-ever increasing population, which is showing no sign of slowing down any time soon.

We did ourselves a great favor by passing the People's Transportation Plan half-cent sales tax back in 2002. Metrorail will be expanded to cover more areas and our train cars will be completely gutted and refurbished. We follow the progress very closely here. I encourage you to read through the South Florida Mass Transit thread to see all the new improvements that are on the way. Have you seen what the new Metrorail and Metromover cars are going to look like? Click here to see the Metrorail cars, and click here to see the Metromover cars.

This is only the beginning. Watch as more mixed-use transit-oriented development is built along the Metrorail corridors, both the existing track and future. The zoning that governs the downtown Kendall urban district requires that buildings have colonnades or awnings so that pedestrians have covered walk areas, so it will be possible to wait for a bus in the shade and out of the rain (or hopefully your destination will be somewhere along a Metrorail line). It's the way that we have built in the past that makes some areas hostile to transit, with huge parking lots, building setbacks, no shade, and other design elements that are hostile to pedestrians. This will take many years to undo, but at least now we're on the right track.

So, let's hear what ideas you have: tell us what you would do if you were mayor or a commissioner and had the decision-making power to improve the system. These types of discussions are much more productive. Again, welcome to UrbanPlanet, and I look forward to your continued participation in our discussion.

[Paul]

Well, one thing I wouldn't do is expand the Metrorail out to sweetwater which is what Miami officials are planning on. They should focus on the more populated areas like Kendall, Coral Gables, and Miami Beach instead of going west all the way to 107th ave.

I've heard that Kendall's priority date for county funding in Metrorail improvements is in 30 years. With a population of about 400,000 that is rapidly growing Kendall will have the population of a major city with no real transportation to show for it.

If everyone lived in downtown dadeland than traffic will ease up for sure. However, my prediction is that when these people move into Dadeland from West Kendall or where-ever theyre from, new people will just fill in their spot.

My concern isn't 30 years from now when I may or may not be living in Miami but 5 years from now when Kendall will have worse traffic than it has ever experienced before downtown dadeland was built. In the long run the "tod" will relieve some traffic but in the short run the addition of 3500 new households to any area regardless of their access to public transportation will always increase traffic.

[dave8721]

Paul, on Jul 15 2005, 08:43 AM, said:

Well, one thing I wouldn't do is expand the Metrorail out to sweetwater which is what Miami officials are planning on. They should focus on the more populated areas like Kendall, Coral Gables, and Miami Beach instead of going west all the way to 107th ave.

I've heard that Kendall's priority date for county funding in Metrorail improvements is in 30 years. With a population of about 400,000 that is rapidly growing Kendall will have the population of a major city with no real transportation to show for it.

If everyone lived in downtown dadeland than traffic will ease up for sure. However, my prediction is that when these people move into Dadeland from West Kendall or where-ever theyre from, new people will just fill in their spot.

My concern isn't 30 years from now when I may or may not be living in Miami but 5 years from now when Kendall will have worse traffic than it has ever experienced before downtown dadeland was built. In the long run the "tod" will relieve some traffic but in the short run the addition of 3500 new households to any area regardless of their access to public transportation will always increase traffic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Or Miami's office decentralization will continue and offices will move out to West Kendall to be nearer where people live (rather than vice versa).

[Aessotariq]

^ An alarming prospect, especially when you look at what that has done to someplace like Doral. A bi-directional rush hour.  

Paul said:

Well, one thing I wouldn't do is expand the Metrorail out to sweetwater which is what Miami officials are planning on. They should focus on the more populated areas like Kendall, Coral Gables, and Miami Beach instead of going west all the way to 107th ave.

This is one of those delicate political balancing acts that involves appeasing enough people to get everyone on board while at the same time getting the projects that will have the highest benefit done first. If the focus had solely been on Kendall et al., I very seriously doubt that the tax would have been approved by northern county residents.

With that said, however, within 4-5 miles of the FIU-Airport line  is where a significant amount of office space is located (Blue Lagoon, Doral, Airport West, etc.), and where there is significant potential for heavy usage. It would also intersect with the Turnpike and the Palmetto, allowing for Park-n-Ride stations. For Kendall and Coral Gables residents who work in those areas, they will suddenly have a new option of using the metro to get downtown or to the airport area instead of taking the Palmetto and 836.

Improvements to Kendall-area (and countywide) transit in the short term will require a combination of several things: increasing headways, synchronizing traffic lights, and feeding more lines into the Busway and Dadeland South/North stations. I like to think of the rail/busway as a spinal cord with lots of tributary nerves feeding into it. Expect to see more of those 3 digit circulator routes in the future as the fleet expands.

Synchronizing the traffic lights will go a long way toward improving flow, and that's something on the pipeline within the next 2-3 years. Advanced Traffic Management System (ATMS) technology will be able to evaluate traffic conditions in real time and adjust signal phases where necessary to maximize the capacity of the intersections... With the click of a mouse an intersection could be adjusted, and a computer will eventually learn to do it automatically via Adaptive Signal Control.

Miami Beach shot itself in the foot and severely ruined its chances of getting Baylink on the docket sooner. That city's mayor was vehemently opposed to the project and slowed down its progress tremendously. Last year a majority of the city's voters effectively threw egg in his face by expressing support for the project in a non-binding straw ballot vote.

Quote

My concern isn't 30 years from now when I may or may not be living in Miami but 5 years from now when Kendall will have worse traffic than it has ever experienced before downtown dadeland was built. In the long run the "tod" will relieve some traffic but in the short run the addition of 3500 new households to any area regardless of their access to public transportation will always increase traffic.

The question is, where do you want that traffic to be? You can remain status quo and place that new housing stock somewhere out in West Kendall where they'll have to drive for everything and generate a high number of car-trips (the individual number of times a vehicle is put on the road), OR you can be proactive by placing that new stock where there will be less need to use a vehicle and people are afforded a viable alternative... With that, you are offering a choice.   And as with everything, there will be short-term improvements, worsenings, and in the long-term it should all be worth it.

[Paul]

I was at Office Depot earlier today (the one next to downtown dadeland) and I realized that the whole site is seriously lacking green space. The nearest field is below the metrorail and requires crossing Kendall and the nearest park is Continental Park which a little too far to walk.

Pet owners and parents are going to have to walk across Kendall whenever their kids want to play or their dogs need to...take care of bussiness. I think the Kendall Medical Building should be turned into a park. The only problem is that the owners of that land have no insentive to do such a thing.

I also hope that the condos leave a little room for landscaping. It seems like they could leave a little room for a swale between the sidewalk and Kendall and still be "pedestrian friendly." Instead they are building directly on Kendall which is actually a little intimidating for some pedestrians.

[Aessotariq]

Somewhere in the Brickell area I've seen "dog parks" along the bayfront, with little swales and dispensers with bags..

A friend and I were talking about how it would be nice to place a park where the Medical Building is presently located and surround it by eight buildings. It would be like a "town square", like the center piece of a tic-tac-toe board. If/when that building is torn down, that would be a great place for one. Part of that parcel might be acquirable via eminent domain...