241 replies to this topic

[KBagley]

MikeR, on May 16 2006, 09:03 PM, said:

No, it can be in a straight line - When I was in Lisbon a couple of years ago their steetcar system - its' called the "Electra" has  at least 1 point-to-point line (no loops).  The cars are timed to pick up people at stations and along the way the tracks "double" out here and there so trains going in the opposite direction can pass safely.  Their #28 line was set up like that.  I rode it from point to point; it passed through the most historic sections of Lisbon.  I had to get off at the end of the line - "This ride...FINISHED!" the driver said to me in broken English.  

The Electra is Lisbon original streetcar system - they built a subway decades later but the original steetcars serve the city's old inner core.  They are fun to ride as you get to enjoy the streetscape as you go by.  It could work for Providence...

Edit:  Aha!  I surfed the web on this system and here it is (including a pic of the #28 line I rode!)  Read how they get the street car to go the other way.  Cool!
http://www.euronet.n...electricos.html

This is true, but if you consider the streetcar model in Portland Oregon, which I suspect Providence is most likely to emulate, the Streetcar goes with the flow of traffic and regular traffic is able to follow or cut in front of the streetcar as if it were any other vehicle on the road... so to have the streetcar be linear and return on the same tracks, it would then be against the flow of traffic on that street, so you essentially have to have a loop, even if it is only one block away.

I do believe someone responded to my earlier post and clarified that the $30 Million per mile cost includes the extra track needed for a loop, so if true, the cost per mile of actual track is around $15 million.  thats a bit easier to swallow...

[Garris]

FYI: I found this vintage image online of the Westminster Street Trolley from the early 20th century...  Similar to the Portland model...



And this of the Weybosset trolleys, from the same time period (1905!)...  If only they were there today... (sigh...)



- Garris

Edited by Garris, 17 May 2006 - 05:07 PM.

[runawayjim]

KBagley, on May 17 2006, 04:48 PM, said:

This is true, but if you consider the streetcar model in Portland Oregon, which I suspect Providence is most likely to emulate, the Streetcar goes with the flow of traffic and regular traffic is able to follow or cut in front of the streetcar as if it were any other vehicle on the road... so to have the streetcar be linear and return on the same tracks, it would then be against the flow of traffic on that street, so you essentially have to have a loop, even if it is only one block away.

I do believe someone responded to my earlier post and clarified that the $30 Million per mile cost includes the extra track needed for a loop, so if true, the cost per mile of actual track is around $15 million.  thats a bit easier to swallow...

the loop just has to be around the block, so it doesn't have to actually turn anywhere, it can go and turn around... i think smith st is ideal for this as it can make the loop in the center of north providence where it's a circle anyways.  i just don't know where the providence loop would be, unless it went underground somewhere.

to do the other type that was mentioned, the streetcar would need its own lane, most likely in the middle of the road.

[CtownMikey]

question... was downtown really that dense back then.. and if so, we people living downtown, or were they traveling from other Prov neighborhoods

[Garris]

CtownMikey, on May 17 2006, 09:31 PM, said:

question... was downtown really that dense back then.. and if so, we people living downtown, or were they traveling from other Prov neighborhoods

It probably was really that dense (several of the buildings in both of those photos are still there)...  Remember, Providence's population was probably almost 50% greater at that time in the core city than it is today, and I'm sure everyone at that time was only thinking it was going to grow and planning and developing for that growth.  One of the reasons we have so many great, grand, underutilized institutions is probably because they were planning for the growth that never happened.

It was still at the dawn of the automotive age (around 1905 in those photos) when the core cities were still, in every single way that mattered, the absolute center of the local governmental, economic, and social life of a region in ways we can't even begin to imagine today.  Places like Wayland Square and the Blackstone neighborhoods were largely brand spanking new, "streetcar suburbs" (the exurbs of their day).  Places like Seekonk were farmland and considered deeply rural.  

- Garris

Edited by Garris, 17 May 2006 - 09:40 PM.

[pdxstreetcar]

Here's a pretty good overview of the Portland streetcar system to get an idea of its type of operation which is quite different from standard light rail or tourist trolleys:

http://world.nycsubw.../streetcar.html

[JimmyGreaves]

Found this: Looks like an online transit industry magazine posting an article from the Projo about the first meeting of Mayor Cicilline's Transit 2020 Working Group.

RIPTA Lagging Behind Growth of Providence Metro Area

[brick]

runawayjim, on May 17 2006, 07:57 PM, said:

the loop just has to be around the block, so it doesn't have to actually turn anywhere, it can go and turn around... i think smith st is ideal for this as it can make the loop in the center of north providence where it's a circle anyways.  i just don't know where the providence loop would be, unless it went underground somewhere.

I think you would have to go all the way through Providence.  Loop it around Wayland Square or something.

Part of the problem, though, is that Portland funded their system through extra taxes.  Are the developers and landowners along proposed routes willing to pay for the system?  I kind of doubt it.  We haven't reached that critical mass of people where the investment would be worth it.  Maybe I am wrong.  

Another problem is the whole issue of looping.  Ideally, you could include a bit more places with a wider loop.  For instance, I think a nice loop would be from Kennedy Plaza going up Weybosset to Elmwood, then splitting a loop which goes Elmwood Ave. in Providence to Reservoir Ave in Cranston to the Malls to Main St. in Warwick to the Warwick Station to Post Rd. and back to Elmwood.  But you would have to run that loop in two directions or people would be on it an awfully long time.  

It's really hard for me to envision a linear line that would have enough usage to justify it's existance, unless it is fairly short.  Like from Wayland Square to Olneyville Square using Angell and Waterman on the East Side and Broadway and Westminster on the West Side.

[runawayjim]

brick, on May 18 2006, 09:06 AM, said:

I think you would have to go all the way through Providence.  Loop it around Wayland Square or something.

Part of the problem, though, is that Portland funded their system through extra taxes.  Are the developers and landowners along proposed routes willing to pay for the system?  I kind of doubt it.  We haven't reached that critical mass of people where the investment would be worth it.  Maybe I am wrong.  

Another problem is the whole issue of looping.  Ideally, you could include a bit more places with a wider loop.  For instance, I think a nice loop would be from Kennedy Plaza going up Weybosset to Elmwood, then splitting a loop which goes Elmwood Ave. in Providence to Reservoir Ave in Cranston to the Malls to Main St. in Warwick to the Warwick Station to Post Rd. and back to Elmwood.  But you would have to run that loop in two directions or people would be on it an awfully long time.  

It's really hard for me to envision a linear line that would have enough usage to justify it's existance, unless it is fairly short.  Like from Wayland Square to Olneyville Square using Angell and Waterman on the East Side and Broadway and Westminster on the West Side.

i don't picture this going farther than maybe the nearby towns (north providence, pawtucket, and maybe east providence and cranston).  angell and waterman would be perfect on the east side, both are pretty wide roads and some people aren't sure if they're 1 or 2 lanes (i'm included on that one).  but there's no reason they can't use broadway or westminster for both directions (they're both 2 way roads at that point, but i'd say broadway would be better because it can sort of service both the armory and fed hill).

[Garris]

brick, on May 18 2006, 09:06 AM, said:

I think you would have to go all the way through Providence.  Loop it around Wayland Square or something.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't that used to be the case?  There was a trolley barn/transfer point in Wayland Square?  

brick, on May 18 2006, 09:06 AM, said:

It's really hard for me to envision a linear line that would have enough usage to justify it's existance, unless it is fairly short.  Like from Wayland Square to Olneyville Square using Angell and Waterman on the East Side and Broadway and Westminster on the West Side.

It would be ideal, in my opinion, to try to get East Providence as part of that loop now, especially as the waterfront there will be developed in the next decade or so.

- Garris

[runawayjim]

Garris, on May 18 2006, 10:01 AM, said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't that used to be the case?  There was a trolley barn/transfer point in Wayland Square?  
It would be ideal, in my opinion, to try to get East Providence as part of that loop now, especially as the waterfront there will be developed in the next decade or so.

- Garris

isn't there a tunnel going under the river into east providence?  either that or they could use the henderson bridge or turn the washington bridge into a trolley bridge once the new 195 bridge is done.

[Cotuit]

Trolleys don't need a loop, it's a good way to turn around trains, but not a necessity. They can stub end and have an interlocking that can switch the trains from one track to the other, the trains can then run backwards on the way out. That's the way many of the ends in Boston work.

[brick]

runawayjim, on May 18 2006, 10:04 AM, said:

isn't there a tunnel going under the river into east providence?  either that or they could use the henderson bridge or turn the washington bridge into a trolley bridge once the new 195 bridge is done.

No, the tunnel goes through college hill and exits where the the frozen bridge starts.  that is the train tunnel you may have heard about.

There is plenty of room on the Henderson bridge.  It doesn't need to be two lanes in both directions without the expressway connection.  I would put the trolley on track on the north side edge, have two lanes of traffic, then a ped/bike path on the south side.  I'm not sure what the terminus would be in E Prov., though.  A nice little transit station in 6 corners where you could then take the bus out to big box sprawlville rt. 6?  I dunno.

[runawayjim]

brick, on May 18 2006, 10:27 AM, said:

No, the tunnel goes through college hill and exits where the the frozen bridge starts.  that is the train tunnel you may have heard about.

There is plenty of room on the Henderson bridge.  It doesn't need to be two lanes in both directions without the expressway connection.  I would put the trolley on track on the north side edge, have two lanes of traffic, then a ped/bike path on the south side.  I'm not sure what the terminus would be in E Prov., though.  A nice little transit station in 6 corners where you could then take the bus out to big box sprawlville rt. 6?  I dunno.

that's a great route (i assume 6 corners is taunton ave/waterman ave/broadway?), unless we'd want it to service the waterfront, in which case, going down 103 would be good and doing the loop on one of the rotary type areas on 103.  i just see it going farther into east providence, maybe even down warren ave to the mass line.

[Recchia]

And then something could shoot up from East Providence into Pawtucket along the Industrial Highway and hit McCoy Stadium and pretty close to downtown.

[MikeR]

Cotuit, on May 18 2006, 10:15 AM, said:

Trolleys don't need a loop, it's a good way to turn around trains, but not a necessity. They can stub end and have an interlocking that can switch the trains from one track to the other, the trains can then run backwards on the way out. That's the way many of the ends in Boston work.

The surface rail I rode in Lisbon was like that.  Viewed from above, the tracks going in either direction came together at the end like a wishbone.  It could work for Smith, Chalkstone, Broad, Hope, and Elmwood (to name a few)

[damus]

How well would a trolley system work in the snow? How much does the green line in Boston get backed up in the snow?

It's unrealistic but I'd much rather see Providence get a good chunk of their system underground.

[Cotuit]

damus, on May 22 2006, 10:34 AM, said:

How well would a trolley system work in the snow? How much does the green line in Boston get backed up in the snow?

The greenline is almost never effected by the snow. It's more reliable than the buses. Toronto also has an extensive streetcar network and one would assume that they have tackled the snow issue.

[JimmyGreaves]

Providence Transit 2020 Meeting Today Involving Developers

http://www2.sec.stat.../2006/29526.pdf

[TheAnk]

I take the train every day from PVD to Boston.. These escalators that have been broken for what seems like a decade are STILL under construction..

Mitch Hedberg said : "I like an escalator, man, 'cause an escalator can never break. It can only become stairs. There would never be an "Escalator Temporarily Out of Order" sign, only "Escalator Temporarily Stairs. Sorry for the Convenience."

Amtrak disagrees.. They boarded up these temporarily stairs.. How long does it take to fix an escalator? Other than opening a buffalo wings restaurant in PVD (there are none that I know of), escalator repair man has to be the best capitalist opportunity in the city.. They are always broken.. So amtrak makes us working folk plod single file through the one remaining stairwell, which has to be some sort of fire code violation.. Torture..

Its seriously been 6 months.. Is this because escalator repairmen are union? Are they too busy spending time picketing next door @ Capital Cove?

I am thinking about posting a bill on the plywood barrier to the escalator, and have a running day tally like the firemen do when they whine to the public about union contact disputes with the city.

"Amtrak escalator has been out of work now for: 127 days. "

Would that make me an artist or a felon?