1073 replies to this topic

[Cotuit]

We've had some people post and inquire about moving to Providence (lot's of Boston refugees out there   ).

If you're a lurker and want to ask us locals some questions, here's a place to do so.

[cdogstu99]

Thanks guys!  I bounced over here from the other Providence thread.  Lower Doyle, I'm not familiar with that area.  Is that on the East Side over near Camp Street?  Also, if TheAnk is out there listening, maybe he could give me some feedback on the best areas to buy property now.  And, where do you find most of your homes; through the paper, a realtor. etc.  I'm a bit new to this..I did have a condo in North Providence that I sold last year because I moved, but have never purchased investment prop.

Thanks !

[Garris]

cdogstu99, on Feb 23 2005, 08:17 AM, said:

Thanks guys!  I bounced over here from the other Providence thread.  Lower Doyle, I'm not familiar with that area.  Is that on the East Side over near Camp Street?  Also, if TheAnk is out there listening, maybe he could give me some feedback on the best areas to buy property now.  And, where do you find most of your homes; through the paper, a realtor. etc.  I'm a bit new to this..I did have a condo in North Providence that I sold last year because I moved, but have never purchased investment prop.

Thanks !

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is on the East Side near Camp street, and is a very "mixed" area in all regards: socioeconomically, racially, home pricing, retail, and crime-wise.  It's also definitely a prime area for growth and gentrification, and this is already happening (see the new Pratt Condos nearby that will go for $700,000+).  For now, though, a condo there probably goes for $50,000-$150,000 less than an equivalent condo elsewhere on the East Side, depending upon location.  One thing that kept me from looking in this area, aside from the higher crime stats, is that it doesn't really have a pedestrian retail community nearby like Wayland Square, Federal Hill, Hope Village, Thayer St., Broadway, or Wickenden.  It's closer to the boundry of Pawtucket, so you start to see auto oriented strip plazas going North of lower Doyle along N. Main.  

As far as how most people find homes, the first place people go is www.riliving.com which, in my experience, is where almost all RI listings are found.  You can go to individual realty sites, but most of them just link their listings to riliving.com.  

The "word on the street" is that while RI real estate is still going strong, it may be close to peaking and there are some who are a bit worried about a potential Providence condo glut.  Certainly, as someone who bought a condo a little over a year ago on the East Side, I can attest to the fact that there are orders of magnitude more listings for condos of all prices this year than there were this time last year, and more are planned.  I also think new home construction in RI was lower this year that it has been in about a decade.  Of course, people in Boston were worried about such things too about 10 years ago, and we see how those concerns paned out... things have just gone up, up, up!

- Garris

[TheAnk]

cdogstu99, on Feb 23 2005, 09:17 AM, said:

Also, if TheAnk is out there listening, maybe he could give me some feedback on the best areas to buy property now. 
Thanks !

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hello.. I have actually been working for a while instead of posting.. My bad..

Cdog, I got your message.. It depends what you are looking for.. Lower Doyle Street is in the Hope section of Providence.. Its a little pocket of bad ("up and coming") in an area that is very nice.. There are stately multis on Doyle, and its like night and day above Camp street intersection and below.. The lower section by Whole Foods is just ripe for the picking..

If you are looking for an owner occ 3 fam in a nice section, the Broadway area is probably your best bet $$ wise, as the East Side is basically Boston prices... There is a huge tide change going on over there between Broadway and Westminster... An influx of capital and  people with income.. New businesses going in.. Gentrification at its best (er, worst for some people)...There is a pretty big push to make this area rival the East Side, or just below it.. Nice Victorians, and some New England 3 deckers (my fave)...

There are two major condo complexes going up on Lower Atwells; one on Rialto's Furniture lot, and the other behind the Holy Ghost Church... There is a scary section right there which consists of Penn, Tell, Gesler, and Ring Streets which run parallel to Atwells and Broadway... When these lux condos start popping up, the slumlords that own these properties will be forced to sell... They have already started..  If you have the stomach to be a pioneer, this is probably your best risk/return area... This is where I am currently looking...

Then there is Olneyville/Valley area along the Promenade Section.. Again, major push by some big players to improve this area.. See the Fidas article in ProJo.. That made me smile as I have a 3 fam right there.. Pretty remarkable actually, the change in the last year.. New retail, many houses turning over, Rising Sun Mills, and Eagle Square... 1988 Toyotas are slowly being replace with Benzes... This is also a risk/return area, as Onleyville has been a high crime and depressed area... The Atwells/Valley Street area should be your focus.. Stay away from Manton Ave for now... Still very, very scary...

Smith Hill to me SHOULD be up and coming as it is right downtown, but its just not happening.. Jewett Street is nice and has potential, as does much of the area behind the Foundry.. But upper Smith Hill... Not coming along... There is a good deal of affordable housing there, which is good for residents, but not good for landlords...

The other area people like for investment The Armory/West End.. I'm not sold on it... Nice Victorians around the park, and some nice architecture on Wood St, Hudson, etc.. But to me, its sketchy.. Other people like it there though..

If you want more laid back almost suburban like atmosphere, try Mt Pleasant Upper and Elmhurst... It is expensive, but there are some quality streets there...

I would say to avoid South Prov, Hatrford, Silver Lake for the most part, Elmwood, etc in that area... I'm not sold on it... There are many public housing projects in Prov... Avoid them all.. http://www.pha-provi...com/public.html

You can look up crime stats, income and other stuff here:

http://www.provplan....prof/index.html

It is a bit dated for some stuff, but still good reference..

www.riliving.com is the best site... craigslist doesn't have a good amount of houses for sale, and those that are there are mostly pie in the sky FSBOs... Right now it is a strange time; you can see a 3 fam listed for 269k, and the exact same house right next door for 350k... Odd, I think it is slowing down a bit.. Premium properties are still selling, but the other stuff is sitting..

Let me know if you have any questions.. I'm always willing to help bring people to a city that I think is really great and is on the move..  

[cdogstu99]

Garris, on Feb 23 2005, 09:27 AM, said:

The "word on the street" is that while RI real estate is still going strong, it may be close to peaking and there are some who are a bit worried about a potential Providence condo glut.    Garris

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks Garris!  Yeah i agree with a possible Condo glut; I'm more interested in buying a multi-family...somewhere I can owner occupy, rather than a condo.   That way I can build some equity, and have my tenants pay a good bulk of my mortgage.   I did look at few houses over near Camp street about a year and a half ago, and didn't even get out of my car, so I'm guessing the area is still undergoing some transformations...

[cdogstu99]

Thanks Ank,
You have given me a ton of info to start with.  I'm going to map out the area and start checking out some places to give me an idea of what's what.  I appreciate you taking the time to assist.  Wish me luck..

Chris

[TheAnk]

Garris, on Feb 23 2005, 10:27 AM, said:

The "word on the street" is that while RI real estate is still going strong, it may be close to peaking and there are some who are a bit worried about a potential Providence condo glut. 
- Garris

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree 100%.. I am a bit worried about condos being over built.. I think there is a niche for loft exposed brick/beam condos almost always, but these people converting multi family houses to condos... I think that is a huge mistake.. They simply are not selling...

They are asking Boston prices for these things, and you can buy the whole multi for roughly 30-50k more.. Insane, I think...

Perhaps they are out of towners who got bad information, or maybe they are just trying for a quick buck... Who knows...

But condos out paced single family in appreciation, and almost rival in sales price (157k to 185k median)... I think those arew generally signs of a peak...

[Cotuit]

Wow, good info TheANK, I learned a lot!  

[Cotuit]

I just edited a map of the city's neighbourhoods into my first post in this thread. This can give you an idea of what is where.

[cdogstu99]

Cotuit, on Feb 23 2005, 09:44 AM, said:

I just edited a map of the city's neighbourhoods into my first post in this thread. This can give you an idea of what is where.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

thanks Cotuit...I wish I found you guys a long time ago, this is a fantastic site and there are some very knowledgeable Providence folks in here...

[Cotuit]

cdogstu99, on Feb 23 2005, 10:48 AM, said:

thanks Cotuit...I wish I found you guys a long time ago, this is a fantastic site and there are some very knowledgeable Providence folks in here...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hopefully you will be one of us Providence folk soon.  

[eltron]

Hey Cdog...

I moved down from Cambridge a year and a half ago, and have to say it was a fantastic move. Providence has got insanely great potential, and would be perfect for what you are talking about - owner-occupied multi-families that are very affordable, particularly when compared to Boston.

I pretty much second what everyone else has said. I currently own a two-family off-Broadway in Federal Hill, and am currently looking to buy in several of the neighborhoods talked about. Fed hill is a great neighborhood, some streets better than others, cool bars and restaurants, some good old flavor. I do, however, think its getting a bit pricey for what you get, unless you are will to do a tremendous amount of work on the house. I've seen the good historic properties snapped up before they are listed, the crappy ones stay on the market for along time. The new luxury developments on Atwells are an interesting factor...

I've looked at the Valley/olneyville area, though I personally don't see it happening till WAY down the road. Probably really good investor property, but I don't see owner-occupied there unless it was a really funky space, industrial like rising sun, or the firehouse up there that was recently on the market. but it IS moving fast, so who knows.

The Armory is great, but like broadway, its getting tough to find the right property at the right price. Plus Cranston street runs close by, which is pretty terrible, but you could name some crappy streets in any of the places talked about.

Elmwood is very interesting and a place I know very well. I am looking to buy there now. The historic districts contain some of the most beautiful houses in providence, rivaling the east side, at bargain basement prices. these streets are mostly owner-occupied and people really care about whats going on. some streets are certainly to be avoided...don't want to tip my hand, but there are some very interesting positive developments that will be going on there in the next few years. Also best asian food in town at Apsara's!

South Providence is interesting, but rough, and probably to be avoided unless you are a real visionary. same with the manton area.

One other thing I've noticed - RIliving.com is good, but I have noticed recently that the best properties (historical, best potential, reasonably priced) have not been making it there at all, unless they are priced at the absolute top of the market (the one on Dexter Street comes to mind). I'd contact the agents at one of the bigger local realtors here (Armory Properties and Residential has been really pushing into the west side and elmwood) because they seem to be getting the inside track and steering their clients to the jewels before they put it on the MLS for co-broking, as thats just money out of their pocket.

anyway, goodluck, and hope that helps!

[Cotuit]

eltron, on Feb 23 2005, 12:12 PM, said:

Fed hill is a great neighborhood, some streets better than others, cool bars and restaurants, some good old flavor. I do, however, think its getting a bit pricey for what you get

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The big thing you get from Federal Hill is it's proximity to Downcity. This is especially attractive to Bostonians who want to continue working in Boston and commuting by train (even driving Federal Hill has an advantage of being right on 95).

If you are going to work and live in Providence, proximity to Downcity is still a huge selling point. I can walk to The Dunk, the Convention Centre, PPAC, Trinity, restaurants, the mall... in about +/-10 minutes from my house, quicker than driving and finding parking. I don't even own a car, I work on the East Side and often walk to work (especially since RIP(off)TA raised fares).

[Mike D]

I currently live in Boston and have been thinking about moving to Providence, in fact I thought about living there even when I was an undergraduate at UConn in 1999. I'm thinking about leaving Boston simply because housing in Boston has gotten so expensive.

I found out about about this website through Cotuit's postings on Railroad.net and finally decided to check it out. This is defintely a very interesting website - from all the articles posted here it looks like Providence is going to see quite a lot of development in the near future. The fact that its popualtion increased quite a bit from 1990 to 2000 is certainly a good sign.

Cotuit mentioned there are a lot of ex-Bostonians in Providence. I would love to know what made them decide to go to Providence and what advantages (social, economic, political, etc.) Providence has that Boston may not. Who knows, maybe I'll be counted among those who left Boston for Providence.

Edited by Mike D, 23 February 2005 - 11:42 AM.

[cdogstu99]

thanks guys..yeah i have a brother who owns a few houses over in the armory district; I definitely think it's at a point now where you have to be selective.   I work in Milford, so I'll have a bit of a commute from Providence, but I think it's worth it, considering what your money will get you versus Boston prices where you cannot find ANY properties that would come close to pay off your mortgage.  And when it gets to that point, it's time to go elsewhere; hence now I'm looking in Prov.  Thanks again for the advice guys, think I found my new favorite board...

[Garris]

Mike D, on Feb 23 2005, 11:40 AM, said:

I found out about about this website through Cotuit's postings on Railroad.net

Man, Cotuit, you must be *everywhere* :-).

Mike D, on Feb 23 2005, 11:40 AM, said:

I would love to know what made them decide to go to Providence and what advantages (social, economic, political, etc.) Providence has that Boston may not.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, I didn't leave Boston for Providence, but I'll tell you what brought me here.  I had acceptances at training programs at UMass (Worcester), Lahey (Boston), and Brown (Providence).  The training programs were actually all fairly equivalent in quality, so the decision for me in large part came down to location.  

I ruled out Worcester fairly quickly for many reasons, but since this isn't about knocking another city, I'll stop there.

Regarding Providence vs. Boston, the main reason I choose Providence was the reason many people do: sophisticated, progressive, urban living with tremendous arts and great restaurants at amongst the lowest prices in the Northern states.  I've also long been interested in urban and architectural issues, and I just feel Providence is (among NE states) at the epicenter of some of the most transforming powers at play in U.S. cities.  I visit all the best parts of Boston all the time, and it's great, but then I come back to Providence and drive down Benefit Street, or wander Federal Hill or Wayland Square I'm so glad I choose Providence.  

A coworker of mine was looking at the same training programs that I was, and he actually choose a Boston program, and we had the same budget, both wanting to buy a condo.  Here's what we both ended up with:

Me: Bought a large townhouse condo in Wayland Square on the East Side right in the city in a wonderful, affluent, safe neighborhood right on a bus line.

Him: Bought an apartment style condo much smaller than mine for slightly more in a town (sorry, forgot the name...  Waltham maybe?) just outside the city proper in a neighborhood considered somewhat "edgy/sketchy" and "up and coming."  He's a good walk from a T line.

Me: Live within 2 blocks of a dozen or so restaurants, markets, shops, pharmacies, etc., etc.  I live 10 minutes drive "door to floor" from my workplaces and within 10 minutes drive, walk, or bus from every conceivable thing I'd ever want in Providence.

Him: Lives in a residential neighborhood with nothing retail/restaurant-wise within a desirable walking distance.  He's got a moderate walk to a mass transit line.  Anywhere he wants to go, mass transit or car, is 20-50 minutes into Boston depending upon where he wants to go/traffic.  15-30 minute drive to work, depending upon traffic.  

For him to live in the kind of place I do, he'd need to live someplace like Brookline, where'd he never be able to buy anything, and would probably end up renting a tiny apartment for more than my mortgage.

Psychologically, though, he has the need of feeling he lives in the "big city," the "center of things."  He'd never feel, um, adequate (?) living in a place like Providence.  We all know people like that :-).  

There's also one huge caviat.  I'm presuming that most of you are, like me, single without children.  I know many people, married with children, many of whom still work in Providence, who are moving out of the city to live nearby in Mass (or even commute here from the Boston area or even Eastern CT) because the RI public schools profoundly suck (save for two or three districts like Barrington or East Greenwich, which themselves perform below similar socioeconomic areas in other states like Newton, MA or Somers, NY).  The Providence public school system is essentially lost, and most East Siders send their children to very expensive private schools.  Even amongst those, many parents feel that if you can't get your child into Moses Brown or Wheeler High (the two pinnicle privates), you might as well move.  My mother is a public school teacher in New York State (which has its own problems), but amongst the public school teacher groups in the region, the consensus is (amongst suburban school districts) NY = NJ = Mass (maybe NY a bit better, but it's lead is narrowing as NY lowers its Regents standards) > CT (slightly behind but improving) > PA (should be better, but isn't for some reason)  >>> RI.  This despite the fact the RI teachers are best paid.  She's not sure why RI schools just never developed like the surrounding states, but she says the differences are clear.  

One of my current co-workers is leaving RI for a position in Philadelphia just so his kids can go to the pubic schools in Main Line Philly (he doesn't want to pay $15,000 for private school per child, and I agree with him).  

If you're single, don't worry, and join us here in our shining city!  If you've got kids, seriously give this some thought.

- Garris

PS: Wow that was a lot longer than I intended!

[Cotuit]

Garris, on Feb 23 2005, 01:28 PM, said:

Man, Cotuit, you must be *everywhere* :-).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My job isn't terribly taxing.  

[Garris]

TheAnk, on Feb 23 2005, 09:33 AM, said:

Smith Hill to me SHOULD be up and coming as it is right downtown, but its just not happening.. Jewett Street is nice and has potential, as does much of the area behind the Foundry.. But upper Smith Hill... Not coming along... There is a good deal of affordable housing there, which is good for residents, but not good for landlords...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I work occasionally at the Providence VA in Smith Hill, and I just don't get it.  The area is kind of in limbo.  It feels like it could explode with potential or fall into the abyss, but just nothing is happening either way.  Any theories as to why this is?  

My pet theory is that for some reason (geography? road layout?), despite being close to downtown, it feels really isolated.  95 and the river really slices it off from feeling like a part of the city, and Smith St over the highway (unlike Atwells for Federal Hill) connects you to, what?  The State House?  Parking lots?  The Marriott?  Whoopee...

Also, Smith Hill might have some of the most extensive traffic calming measures in the city.  There are stop signs everywhere, and every red light (especially at Chalkstone and Smith) takes forever.  Commuting around there is profoundly unpleasant.  

Also, none of you realty investors mentioned Fox Point/India Point in your rundowns of city neighborhoods.  How is this area seen at the moment?

- Garris

PS: Real estate investing is something I'm considering in the very distant (like 10-20 years from now) future when my income improves somewhat.  I might as well put my urbanism hobby to financial work for me :-).  Are there books to learn about the process that any of you doing this now would recommend to start educating oneself about the process?

Edited by Garris, 23 February 2005 - 12:46 PM.

[Cotuit]

The idea of buying a triple decker intrigues me, but the idea of becoming a landlord scares me. Anyone willing/able to speak to that issue?

[cdogstu99]

Cotuit, on Feb 23 2005, 12:56 PM, said:

The idea of buying a triple decker intrigues me, but the idea of becoming a landlord scares me. Anyone willing/able to speak to that issue?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cotuit, i'm a new guy at this, and don't own any property YET, but I can tell you that one of my brother's houses (forget location, think it was west side); a 3 family, was raided by the police.   Reason was that one of the tenants was a member of a local notorious gang and he was dealing some white powder, if you know what i mean.    The cops destroyed the place, and from what he's told me, it's been a headache.    Even still, I want to buy an investment property, but it does tell you that you definitely should be running some credit/background checks on your tenants.