75 replies to this topic

[superNOVA]

What Grand Rapids was that, the MSA or CSA?  Last economic census ratings has the CSA at 65 billion (better reading than the GMP) larger than Jacksonville, Buffalo, and alost Nashville.  About the same as New Orleans.  The density of Michigan would also be a major factor as sports teams look out of the metro areas to determine potential.

Last official list I saw had GR more than capable of hosting an NFL, NHL, NBA, or MLS team or two of the lower tier NBA, NHL, or MLS.


Check out the Spreadsheet on this page...  You will have to download it.

http://www.bizjourna..._special/3.html

Says a lot.  Grand Rapids is technically third but LV and Greensboro are basically tied with us.  Also check out some of the larger cities that have teams that are way too overextended.  The spreadsheet also shows which teams can be supported by the metro and which can't as well as the number that could be.

It is interesting.  And as you can see, it is a matter of someone bringing the team here, not economics.

[moonshield]

where do you find this economic census rating...

what does the CSA include? And what year was that number for?

I got a 404 trying to download the spreadsheet.

[superNOVA]

moonshield, on Jun 15 2005, 12:57 PM, said:

where do you find this economic census rating...

what does the CSA include? And what year was that number for?

I got a 404 trying to download the spreadsheet.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

http://www.bizjourna...004/story1.html

Try this one.  Same spreadsheet.

The economic census is on the census website.  However, you might as well wait for the new one now as the old data is hard to find.  They compile a new census every seven years and they are rolling out the new data now, and over the Summer.  The last data is from 1997.

To get the info, you need to add the seperate sectors together to get the total economic impact of an area.  I think that the bizjournals spreadsheet does a pretty good job as it is based on available income.

[moonshield]

interesting chart. I like how NYC has it. They could support a whole league


What exactly is GR's economic area?


maybe there is some truth in your claims. I am starting to see the possibility from the numbers side but from the practical side, it would not make sense for the mid-west to have another pro team.

Edited by moonshield, 15 June 2005 - 02:10 PM.

[GRDadof3]

Wow!  That chart is interesting in so many ways.

BTW, Moonshield:  Charlotte is a great looking city, and you guys have some great looking projects in the works.  I will have to get my family down there sometime (when snow is blowing here).

[wyoming_mi]

Here is my opinion with the Rampage and expanding the 'Van. I know many people don't look at the AFL very highly in terms of a major pro sports league, which I won't disagree with. Any of you guys on here that haven't been to a game- go to one- the sport is 100x's better in person, especially in the small confines of the Van Andel. What is true is that the status and exposure of the league are on the rise very quickly. Even if we were to sellout all 8 home games in a given year, the Rampage would be about dead last in the 17 team league in attendance. As Dan Devos mentioned earlier this year, the league and profitablitly is all about ticket sales. This is why even in the glory years (which are on the way back) the team struggled to make a profit. The demand was there for 14,000+ tickets for many games, but they were limited to 10,595, which is BY FAR the smallest arena in the league by over 4,000. People may point to 2004 and this past season as reasons for not expanding based on the Rampage alone because, well, frankly they sucked. Success tends to be cyclical and Dan Devos has talked to me personally, as a season ticket holder that they know the mistakes they made when they got rid of almost all the key players from the successful seasons. Again, for those of you who aren't huge followers of the AFL, believe me it IS growing very fast. Devos has stated his strong committment to keeping the franchise in Grand Rapids, even with outside pressure to move the team to a larger market. Just last month he showed this as the Rampage signed that deal with Centennial Wireless for the naming rights to the playing surface. The 3-year deal is WELL in to the high six-figure range and will provide the team with a new playing surface (badly needed), wall pads, and most importantly financial strength. If the team can prove that the fan base is still strong after two losing seasons, I can't see why Devos or others would not at least look in to an expansion- it's going to be necesary for GR to even have any shot at being looked at for an NHL team anyway. Sorry about the rant lol, that's just a perspective from a huge downtown GR and Rampage supporter.

[moonshield]

yea, I remeber going to the very first Rampage game I had a blast. Its an exciting game but I moved to more a purist side of football...

[snoogit]

moonshield, on Jun 15 2005, 12:14 PM, said:

Who is the competition? Cities with no pro sports, or cities that may get more?
Since we are talking money and economy and population look at the following figures.
GMP of Grand Rapids 43 billion, 59th in the nation

Cities with no pro sports include:

Richmond VA (about the same size as GR)
GMP: 50.4 billion
Population: 192,494 in city and 1,138,234 in metro

Las Vegas NV
GMP: 64.6 billion
Population: 517,017 in city and 1,688,385 in metro

Norfolk VA
GMP:65.2 billion
Population: 237,835 in city and 1,701,083 in metro

hartford CT
GMP: 73.7 billion
Population: 124,558 in city and 1,298,907 in metro

New Haven CT
GMP:85.4 billion
Population: 124,000 part of the Northeast megaopolis 21,854,000

Greensboro
GMP:50.6 billion
Population: 229,110 in city and 1,473,679 in metro

Orlando has one team
GMP: 65.8 billion
Population: 199,336 in city and 1,922,412 in metro

Then you have cities like San Antonio (one team)

The point is there is quite the list to go before Grand Rapids is going to be considered. While the economy is good for the size of the city, its nothing spectacular compared to the rest of the United States. Population wise there are still several cities to go through before Grand Rapids gets a team.

Michigan already has the Detroit and Chicago teams within a short drive and growth in population and economy is not up to say the southeast or southwest. I don't believe the corporations would risk the investment in a professional sports package.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm just talking NHL, which is the MOST likely canidate to move to GR. Hockey is much more marketable here in the north, then in the south. None of those cities other then Hartford in all honesty are NHL-type cities (of course neither are Phoenix, Tampa Bay, Miami, and Atlanta, all who have teams)

GR has the economy, and the marketability to support an NHL-caliber team, and thats about it. Other then the NHL, I dont see GR ever supporting an NBA, or other type of sports team (Orlando, and San Antonio only have one pro sports team, why not put GR in a similar boat with the NHL?)

With the Griffins, their main competition is the Muskegon Fury, and Kalamazoo K-wings the only difference is they aren't in the same league, but to most people theres no difference. Although GR is a great canidate for hockey, I would think Indianapolis would be the better market for the NHL to penetrate, I dont think there is a single hockey team in Indianapolis, but im not sure.  

As for AAA baseball, I would think GR should have a team in AAA by now. I'm more surprised we dont. Sure we have the Whitecaps, but I think a AAA affiliation would be much more marketable, and you could put the stadium near the downtown area, complimenting the Arena.

[Nitro]

snoogit, on Jun 15 2005, 05:01 PM, said:

I'm just talking NHL, which is the MOST likely canidate to move to GR.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

NHL? What's that?  Hockey? What's That?

It's been so long I've almost forgotten about them.

God I wish the strike would end soon...........

Nitro

[superNOVA]

Quote

I am starting to see the possibility from the numbers side but from the practical side, it would not make sense for the mid-west to have another pro team.

Very true.

Grand Rapids is not the most ideal location for all sports, however, the numbers are there and teams have moved to more senseless locations.

The NHL would be about the only team we would have a chance at.  The NBA has a strong growth potential in the South and the NFL I suspect is too expensive for this conservative area.  I could not see one of our local rich people spending almost all of their cash on a NFL team - just would not make sense.  However, if Buffalo, Jacksonville, Nashville, and New Orleans can hang, there would be no reason why Grand Rapids could not.

In my opinion, the most intelligent thing that the NHL could do would be to move teams back to the 'home base'.  It is not a mystery that the league went downhill when teams began moving too far from the Midwest and Canada.  If a Southern or Western team were to fold, Grand Rapids could actually contend.

However, Detroit and Chicago would both weigh heavily, and I doubt that Detroit in particular would be happy to lose a large portion of their fan base.

[moonshield]

I heard on PTI (Pardon the Interupption) that there is talk that the NHL is removing all of their teams south of DC

[snoogit]

superNOVA, on Jun 15 2005, 05:27 PM, said:

Very true.

Grand Rapids is not the most ideal location for all sports, however, the numbers are there and teams have moved to more senseless locations.

The NHL would be about the only team we would have a chance at.  The NBA has a strong growth potential in the South and the NFL I suspect is too expensive for this conservative area.  I could not see one of our local rich people spending almost all of their cash on a NFL team - just would not make sense.  However, if Buffalo, Jacksonville, Nashville, and New Orleans can hang, there would be no reason why Grand Rapids could not.

In my opinion, the most intelligent thing that the NHL could do would be to move teams back to the 'home base'.  It is not a mystery that the league went downhill when teams began moving too far from the Midwest and Canada.  If a Southern or Western team were to fold, Grand Rapids could actually contend.

However, Detroit and Chicago would both weigh heavily, and I doubt that Detroit in particular would be happy to lose a large portion of their fan base.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

CHicago has had a struggling attendance record for almost a decade. I don't think Detroit will loose a huge segment of it's west side market if GR had a team. The only time I ever get to see a wings game is if I am offered tickets.

[MJLO]

It doesn't seem logical to me.  Don't get me wrong, I think it would be great to have something like an NHL team in our city.   But we can't even fill an arena with our Minor league hockey team.   The kind of attendance that would warrant an NHL team,  would be quite a bit bigger.   I know I saw the post about NHL with poor attendance,   But 14k  is the Van Andel almost full I'd say in a good year an NHL team could get about 9k in average attendance.  

Either way I'd like to see it

[wyoming_mi]

Even though I believe the chances are slim for a major league team, I don't really think you can gauge fan support/interest in the attendance of a minor league team. In my opinion it is like comparing apples to oranges- the NHL is off the charts in comparison with the AHL or old IHL. I would also love to see Grand Rapids see a upgrade in the minor league baseball scene, but even with a AA or AAA team, there won't be a new stadium. 5/3 Field has more room to add seats in the outfield, and already is comparable capacity-wise to many AA and AAA baseball stadiums, not to mention it is relatively young at 11 years old. Right now I think the organization is comfortable with the Tigers as the parent franchise so West Michigan fans can see future Tigers. Something tells me they won't part with the Tigers any time soon.

ps- one random piece of info i heard around somewhere is that Grand Rapids is one of the few, if one of the ONLY top-50 markets with neither a professional sports franchise OR a major Division 1 college program in town.

Edited by wyoming_mi, 15 June 2005 - 08:59 PM.

[snoogit]

MJLO, on Jun 15 2005, 08:39 PM, said:

It doesn't seem logical to me.  Don't get me wrong, I think it would be great to have something like an NHL team in our city.   But we can't even fill an arena with our Minor league hockey team.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Neither could Columbus, but now they are right in the middle in terms of overall attendance. Its sometimes a matter of just having a major presence vs a minor one.

[superNOVA]

Quote

But we can't even fill an arena with our Minor league hockey team.

A 'major' would probably draw at least 25% more people per game.  Like I said earlier, I have never bothered to go see a Griffins or Rampage game - because I see no real point.  The only minor league event I have been to in town are a few baseball games, only because it is a relatively cheap way to blow an afternoon.

Look at concert attendance, VA leads the nation (and has since its construction) in sales for a venue of its size.  A few years back it actually finished the year in the top fifteen overall for attendance - for arenas of all sizes.  Proof that national acts and tours can draw the necessary people.  I would consider a 'major' team to have this same type of draw - depeding on how well they are doing.  Even during a bad year, the demand would easily be there.

Not to mention it was technically built for sports, and for the potential to be home to a sports team.  For an arena its size, it still tops (or is near the top) the list in luxury seats and boxes.  This is generally a large qualifier for pro sports as it is a huge profit generator - typically they are the only seat profits that soley go to the home team.  The VA has more than some of even the newer NHL and NBA arenas.  Once cited as a reason for Orlando to upgrade, lest their team be moved to the 'ready to go and updated' VA.