130 replies to this topic

[orulz]

I'm not from Virginia but from what I've read the third crossing would be used for light rail, not high speed intercity rail. The two technologies are not compatible due to FRA regulations. If I lived in Hampton Roads I'd probably rather have LRT across the James River than HSR, because LRT is someting you can use every day.

The Newport News area already has passenger rail. Sure it doesn't have the "high speed" moniker, but it's really not bad at all!

Lastly, take a look at the US460/NS alignment. Notice that it doesn't stray from tangent for upwards of 50 miles through a sparsely populated area. Trains could peg the speedo at 110 and keep it there the whole way into town. Now that's high speed rail. No such luck on the route through Newport News - you'd be stuck with speed restrictions due to curves and crossings almost the whole way to Richmond. You probably wouldn't see much improvement over what the Regionals are already doing.

Edited by orulz, 03 May 2005 - 08:54 PM.

[vdogg]

orulz, on May 3 2005, 10:36 PM, said:

I'm not from Virginia but from what I've read the third crossing would be used for light rail, not high speed intercity rail.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not so sure about that because the overall goal is to bring "passenger rail" to south Hampton Roads instead of just stopping on the peninsula, which has been a major sore spot to many of the communities down here. The main focus of the LRT initiative has been the Norfolk/Va. Beach corridor. I have not heard of any push to connect LRT to any communities across the water. Not to mention that LRT is usually much more of a local transit city issue than it is for intercity travel at the distances that we're speaking of.

[orulz]

vdogg, on May 4 2005, 11:52 AM, said:

I'm not so sure about that because the overall goal is to bring "passenger rail" to south Hampton Roads instead of just stopping on the peninsula, which has been a major sore spot to many of the communities down here. The main focus of the LRT initiative has been the Norfolk/Va. Beach corridor. I have not heard of any push to connect LRT to any communities across the water. Not to mention that LRT is usually much more of a local transit city issue than it is for intercity travel at the distances that we're speaking of.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But I think that intercity rail along the Norfolk Southern line from Petersburg would be a far superior corridor than the one down the peninsula could ever be due to physical constraints on the line. Does it really matter if people from Norfolk can't ride a high-speed train to Newport News? The routing between Norfolk and Newport News would be circuitous and slow, anyway - not worthy of the HSR designation at all. The only thing of any value that you'd gain by running down the peninsula and across to Norfolk is direct service from Williamsburg to Norfolk - and that's not a big deal because you could just transfer in Richmond anyway.

According to discussion in this thread, the third crossing probably won't be done until at least 2015. Passenger service could probably be institued on the NS line much sooner than that, with incremental speed improvements happening periodically like the North Carolina corridor and now the DC-Richmond corridor as well.

You'd end up with a much faster Norfolk-Richmond travel time by following the NS line through Petersburg. Just because that's not the route the interstate highway follows today doesn't mean that it's impractical, slow, or out of the way. And going that way, you bring passenger rail service to Suffolk, and more service to Petersburg along the way.

It's also not an either-or situation where you choose between service on the peninsula and service to Norfolk, where the only way to have both is to do it with a single line. The Regionals aren't going anywhere. Why worry so much about extending the Regional route when you can have a new, faster route as well?

And besides, every report I've ever read on the subject (quite a few) seems to brush off the idea of extending the Regionals across the river to Norfolk offhand. That NS route's just too straight and fast to pass up for high speed rail.

Unless, of course, there's something important that I'm missing? Most of the reports are from 2001-2003, and perhaps there have been new developments since then?

[urbanvb]

Well, this is not rail but certainly good news for us. I posted this also under transporation in Hampton Roads area.
BRT approved for VB

[vdogg]

Quote

Richmond to Hampton Roads Passenger Rail Study (R2HR) - Tier I EIS - ongoing
10-19-05 This Tier I EIS (program level) is examining two routing corridors for connecting the Hampton Roads/Norfolk areas to SEHSR. This Draft EIS is expected by early 2006 and will determine whether the connection will be in Petersburg or Richmond. The study is being directed by the Virginia Department of Rail and Public Transportation.

Southeast high speed rail

This was updated October of last year but kinda slipped through the cracks. It appears that the HR portion of the line is about to finish up with the Tier 1 study and move on to tier II. I am anxious to see whether they chose the peninsula route or the southern route. At this point, I think the southern route is more likely due to the difficulties in funding the 3rd crossing as well as the time it will take.

[burt]

orulz, on May 3 2005, 09:42 PM, said:

Meanwhile we're still waiting for the Tier II document on the Richmond-Petersburg-Raleigh corridor. It was originally due out in "March 2005" but that was pushed back to "Spring 2005." Well, spring is half over, but still no Tier II EIS.

Supposedly in this document they'll move closer to a final decision on a routing through Petersburg. For a primer on the options being considered, check this PDF file out. It seems that the nimbys have forced them to lean towards the North Collier connection, but personally I'd like to see them use the Dunlop/Battersea connection, because that means all passenger trains through Petersburg run through downtown. Better yet, build a connection from the Norfolk Southern line to the old Seaboard Air Line (S-line) alignment along Canal St and Upper Appomatox St. That way, the Florida connection is already in place, and a grade separation under the Atlantic Coast Line (A-line) and a connection to the S-line to points south already exists as well. There's a farily steep grade to tackle there, but the aforementioned "Battersea" connection involves climbing the same hill up from the Appomattox River anyway, so no big deal, right? Passenger trains handle 2% grades with aplomb, and they'd just have left the station and wouldn't be going faster than 45 or so anyway.

Here's a map that I whipped up to show my idea for an alternate Battersea connection:


At any rate, downtown train service is always a good thing, and though I've never been there personally, I hear that DT Petersburg could use a shot in the arm. Wasn't there a tornado through there a few years back that tore everything to pieces?

Orulz, I can't scroll far enough to the "east" to see the north/south connection from Richmond via "Battersea".  Nor do I know what the "Battersea" connection is.  Could you clarify?

I remember in the 1970, Amtrak ran a train Richmond/Roanoke via Petersburg, and I believe it used the old Seaboard ROW to Norfolk Western yards near downtown Petersburg, but maybe it was along your blue line that doesn't go far enough east on the map.  I do recall that a conductor had to do a manual track switch in Colonial Heights.  Sure would appreciate clarification if you have any further maps/charts or info on rails past and present between Petersburg and Richmond.  Thanks.

Also, is the CSX line from south of Richmond to Hopewell capable of passenger traffic?

[eandslee]

rusthebuss, on Mar 22 2005, 06:58 AM, said:

They are really not big enough for a rail system to be feasible. Our area is so much bigger than Richmond

It's not that Richmond isn't BIG enough, but our roads are so good and Richmond isn't backed up into a corner like the HR area, that rail hasn't come onto the forefront yet.  There have been studies made and will likely happen withing the next 10-15 years, but as of right now Richmond enjoys a nice pace of life without clogged roads therefore, leaving plans for a regional rail system for a date much further in the future.

[orulz]

burt, on Jan 9 2006, 02:23 PM, said:

Orulz, I can't scroll far enough to the "east" to see the north/south connection from Richmond via "Battersea".  Nor do I know what the "Battersea" connection is.  Could you clarify?

The Battersea connection is in that PDF file I linked to previuosly. The green line would connect to the Norfolk Southern main line (the one along the Appomattox River) west of the CSX "A"-line, rather than staying on the old "S" line alignment under the "A"-line, and connect to the N-S line further to the east. There would also be a connection from the "A"-line directly to the N-S main, just south of the river.

The reason I suggest this is that there is already a connecting track between the A-line and the S-line, and the S-line is on a lower grade, and descends closer to the river than the A-line ever does (which would make the connection to the NS main easier and less costly.

Quote

I remember in the 1970, Amtrak ran a train Richmond/Roanoke via Petersburg, and I believe it used the old Seaboard ROW to Norfolk Western yards near downtown Petersburg, but maybe it was along your blue line that doesn't go far enough east on the map.  I do recall that a conductor had to do a manual track switch in Colonial Heights.  Sure would appreciate clarification if you have any further maps/charts or info on rails past and present between Petersburg and Richmond.  Thanks.

After a bit of research, I believe that's the Hilltopper you're talking about. It ran from DC to Cattlesburg, KY via Richmond, Petersburg, Roanoke, Charleston, and Huntington. I'm not familiar with the exact routing through Petersburg; I'll see what I can turn up.

Re more maps, here's another map from the southeast HSR project, showing the alternatives currently being studied. The Battersea Connection (also discussed above) would provide a direct connection between the green and the yellow lines on this map.

Quote

Also, is the CSX line from south of Richmond to Hopewell capable of passenger traffic?

Any line can be made capable of supporting passenger traffic, given enough money, and all of these options will require a significant investment. But that route is a significant detour, and the moveable bridge over the Appomattox River could be a big problem, depending on its current condition. Those things cost LOTS of money to overhaul.

[vdogg]

Campaign for passenger rail finally picks up speed

[orulz]

There is a very interesting presentation on the VDRPT website dated 7/13/2006 that shows the status and future plans for all passenger rail improvements in Virginia.

Topics covered include:
VRE extension to Gainesville and Haymarket
Southeast High Speed Rail
Hampton Roads Passenger Rail
Richmond-DC improvements (Cherry Hill 3rd track, Quantico Creek Bridge, etc)
Richmond area improvements (Main Street Station access and facilities, Acca Yard study, etc)
TransDominion Express (and potential Charlottesville VRE extension)

Makes for a good, quick read and update. I like the photo and the progress of the Quantico Creek bridge.

[urbanvb]

It's great to see rail is progressing so nicely. Both NC and VA seem to be intent about extending high speed rail from DC to Richmond to Raleigh and beyond. One great thing for our region (Hampton Roads? Norf/VB ? ) is it will link us better with the rest of the state and hopefully lessen the 'cul de sec' mentality that we now seem to suffer from.

[lammius]

Looking at the maps, however, it does appear Norfolk-VB will be at the end of a passenger rail cul-de-sac too.  

One thing that is IMPERATIVE is that high-speed rail to Norfolk or Newport News MUST be able to maintain at least some one-seat service to New York.  If the trip is broken up in DC or Richmond you're talking about anxiety over catching connections, potentially delayed layovers, and a discomfort of discontinuity on a trip.  The AMTRAK regionals from New York to Newport News are awesome.  I won't take a trip that requires a switch in DC.  If the high-speed would have the same or better level of service for those types of routes it would be great!

[kosage]

I haven't heard much of light rail on the peninsula lately.  But Newport News has already designated certain areas along the CSX rail to be made into light rail stations.  One of those proposed stations is right next to Bland Blvd and the CSX rail.  I drive past this area almost everyday.  The area has been completely cleared and there is always some trucks over there doing something.  Whatever they are doing, it seems to be going very slowly.  Anyone have any information on this site?

[rusthebuss]

kosage, on Aug 3 2006, 09:20 AM, said:

I haven't heard much of light rail on the peninsula lately.  But Newport News has already designated certain areas along the CSX rail to be made into light rail stations.  One of those proposed stations is right next to Bland Blvd and the CSX rail.  I drive past this area almost everyday.  The area has been completely cleared and there is always some trucks over there doing something.  Whatever they are doing, it seems to be going very slowly.  Anyone have any information on this site?

Newport News is in the very early stages. About where Norfolk was in 1994. So you are looking about 10-15 years before they can come close to getting approved. I think if the 3rd crossing was up and they were working with Norfolk to attach it would go faster. What I wished had happened is that the cities here weren't competing with each other for the federal funds. They should have made a regional stab at it. There could have been a larger starter rail. It would have been one entity going for the federal funds. Now if Vabeach goes for the funds NN will have to compete with them.

[urbanfan]

kosage, on Aug 3 2006, 09:20 AM, said:

I haven't heard much of light rail on the peninsula lately.  But Newport News has already designated certain areas along the CSX rail to be made into light rail stations.  One of those proposed stations is right next to Bland Blvd and the CSX rail.  I drive past this area almost everyday.  The area has been completely cleared and there is always some trucks over there doing something.  Whatever they are doing, it seems to be going very slowly.  Anyone have any information on this site?

Actually what you are seeing is the city dragging there feet.  That area is where the future extension of middle ground blvd. will cut through.  The project was put on hold because of a lack of funding from the state.  However, Newport News, is considering its options to build without federal funding because the need for the road is very great.  The road would extend from the other side of Jefferson and cut right between Port Warwick and the University Suites and will elevate over the train tracks and dump into Warwick Blvd., creating a better connection to CNU.  Light rail for Newport News is well behind Norfolk, in fact we are still in the early environmental impact statement.  We still have to finish that, go the the feds to get approval to start the final environmental impact statement and a favorable rating to continue, which in this area could be hard because of how less dense the whole area is.  Then we have to go back to the government to get approval to start final design and hope that we can get funding when several other large cities more densely populated are looking for funding also.  Trust me, rail on the peninsula will be an uphill battle and ultimately might only come to fruition if we as residents are willing to pay for it and not try to get federal funding.  However, if the light rail does get approved it would eventually run the CSX tracks and then turn onto Middle Ground Blvd towards CIty Center.  That is why it is important to get Middle Ground built first.

[kosage]

I just wanted to make a correction because I think you misunderstood me.  I had asked about the work going on right next to the Bland Blvd bridge (which isn't near the proposed Middle Ground extention).  I do know that Middle Ground extention will connect all the way to Maxwell Rd that would intersect at Warwick Blvd.  But that's almost next to CNU.  Bland Blvd. goes straight into the Williamsburg/NN airport.  I'm trying to figure out what's going on in this area (Bland Blvd), not the Middle Ground extention area.  Out of all the proposed light rail stations they have for Newport News, it seems the only proposed area that is seeing any action at all is at the Bland Blvd bridge.  I've been down in Port Warwick several times and the proposed light rail station at this point doesn't have anything going on even though I completely agree with you that light rail in our area might be contingent on Middle Ground Blvd, or at the very least...very important.   So I hope I could clear that up.  Now, back to the question...what's going on at Bland Blvd?  I appreciate your info and patience.

[urbanfan]

kosage, on Aug 4 2006, 04:45 PM, said:

I just wanted to make a correction because I think you misunderstood me.  I had asked about the work going on right next to the Bland Blvd bridge (which isn't near the proposed Middle Ground extention).  I do know that Middle Ground extention will connect all the way to Maxwell Rd that would intersect at Warwick Blvd.  But that's almost next to CNU.  Bland Blvd. goes straight into the Williamsburg/NN airport.  I'm trying to figure out what's going on in this area (Bland Blvd), not the Middle Ground extention area.  Out of all the proposed light rail stations they have for Newport News, it seems the only proposed area that is seeing any action at all is at the Bland Blvd bridge.  I've been down in Port Warwick several times and the proposed light rail station at this point doesn't have anything going on even though I completely agree with you that light rail in our area might be contingent on Middle Ground Blvd, or at the very least...very important.   So I hope I could clear that up.  Now, back to the question...what's going on at Bland Blvd?  I appreciate your info and patience.

Well, previously there were plans to create on and off ramps for the highway there, however, I thought that project was delayed on account of no money from the state. If its right on the rail bed than its probably just csx doing maintenance.  But as far as light rail, that construction has nothing to do with it.  Light rails is a decade away at least.

[kosage]

No, this is something much bigger than maintainance.  They have cleared a huge area here.  I don't know if you live in this area, but I think you should drive by there to see what I'm talking about.  That's the only way I think I could convince you that it's something bigger.  You would have to be driving on Bland Blvd towards Jefferson Blvd to get a decent look at it if you chose to take a look.

[wrldcoupe4]

Amtrak is considering cutting one of 2 daily trains from Newport News to Richmond, leaving only 1 trip daily for Williamsburg and Newport News, according to news reports..

[Noneck_08]

wrldcoupe4, on Aug 24 2006, 08:30 PM, said:

Amtrak is considering cutting one of 2 daily trains from Newport News to Richmond, leaving only 1 trip daily for Williamsburg and Newport News, according to news reports..

That really is sad news. They are probley trying to cut the Twilight Limited or the such. It's an overnighter on the route. I beleve they tried to cut it a couple years back also.