29 replies to this topic

[Freddy C]

superNOVA, on Mar 28 2005, 04:55 PM, said:

no the difference is that one is a production based economy while the others are service based economies.  Service economies lend themselves to large buuildings, production economies lend themselves to large production buildings, not office towers.

Can you guess which is which.  Also, production economies tend to be much more wealthy as average production pay rates are much higher than the average service worker rate.  In the Midwest average service workers get around $8.00 hour.  So yes, there are tall buildings, but they are filled to the brim with telemarketers, low level bankers, and secretaries. 

Now, I am not saying one is better than the other (trust me a production based economy has its problems) but one is definitely more wealthy than the other.  Whether this is deserved or not. 
If I recall Des Moines is a major center for telemarketers - they employ a significant portion of the working population.  That would be considered a low paying service field.  They do lend themselves to large buildings though.
And before you say anything about dying industry and crap like that, low level service jobs are at jsut as much or greater risk.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well...production based economies are on the decline...that is not crap that is reality....note that Steel Case just said it will let go another 600 employees over the next couple of years, electolux, Bissel, GM and a host of other production companies downsizing. I do not see these high rise building been filled by telemarketers. They are likely filled by Law offices, Bank employees, INsurance employees, Brokerage firms, investment firms and other. I have worked in HIgh rises here in Minneapolis and certain floors are reserved for some major corporations in the area. Like Target will occupy several floors, American Express will occupy several floors. In GR, you could have a high rise that houses certin floors for Meijers office workers, Spartan stores on another, Steel Case on another, Law firms on another...ect. It is simply that such office workers and not concentrated in GR...and they could be.

[Freddy C]

In all fairness...I think GR's Downtown has Raleigh, NC downtow beat. Raleigh is one of the fastest growing metro areas in the country....with an estimated 1.4 million people in 2005. I visited the city once and went downtown and it was dead and not impressive at all in regards to height, density or activity.

[superNOVA]

Quote

Well...production based economies are on the decline...that is not crap that is reality

Why am I not surpirsed that you would buy into that...

If that is the case, why is production capability within the US still gowing?  Why is production capacity in the US still growing?  Yes, there are some losses, but they are typically quickly offset.  Will manufacturing last forever. no, but there will always still be a need for some.  Farms are still around - and people like you doomed them in 1900.

If you take your arguments and apply them to services the situation looks even worse...

Dell moving thousands of jobs to India.  Citibank cutting around 120,000 jobs (you know those rich bankers, accountants, and traders) because of a merger.  You are really showing ignorance of the economy and the state of the economy.  The US is not falling off the edge of the world any time soon, and last I checked we still are (and will be for a while) the world leader in production and more importantly productivity.


But, this is even better for Grand Rapids.  It is only one of two cities in the nation that boasts of having a market leader (definied top 10) in all of the federally outlined economic markets.  Guess the only other city with a more diverse economy.

New York.  So no, Grand Rapids is far from being a purely production based town.  It is actually one of the most diverse economic regions in the world.  Furthermore, the lack of downtown space could also be explained by the four distinct downtown areas within the metro.  If they were all combined within the current geographical area of downtown Grand Rapids there would be almost twice the amount of development.

[joeDowntown]

I read two interesting articles about the economy yesterday. It settles it in my mind that people like doom and gloom (maybe it is part of the human nature). Some interesting facts:

1. Manufacturing has been on a steady decline in the United States since 1979 mostly due to increased efficiencies, NOT sending work overseas.
2. China actually lost more manufacturing jobs last year than the United States.
3. Outsourcing (the hot topic). While the U.S. outsources 45.6B per year, it INSOURCES 65.5B per year.

One area that will continue to have trouble is Tool and Die, but the fact of the matter is that the U.S. is an entrepreneurial country and there is atleast a five year lag between new technology and the beginning of outsourcing.

These are national statistics. So how do I think Grand Rapids holds up?

We are a very entrepreneurial city, that bodes well for us. Much of our manufacturing is skilled labor (and not just button pushing). We have a huge Industrial design base (problem solvers). This will help us push the envelope.

As long as manufacturers can diversify and keep a skilled workforce, we will be ok. It is not bad that we are diversifying. There are some growing pains, but all in all, we still have the ability to think and muscle our way through this. Smaller manufacturing is not bad manufacturing. Efficiencies are always gained through technology.

Joe

[Freddy C]

superNOVA, on Mar 29 2005, 12:23 AM, said:

Why am I not surpirsed that you would buy into that...

If that is the case, why is production capability within the US still gowing?  Why is production capacity in the US still growing?  Yes, there are some losses, but they are typically quickly offset.  Will manufacturing last forever. no, but there will always still be a need for some.  Farms are still around - and people like you doomed them in 1900.

If you take your arguments and apply them to services the situation looks even worse...

Dell moving thousands of jobs to India.  Citibank cutting around 120,000 jobs (you know those rich bankers, accountants, and traders) because of a merger.  You are really showing ignorance of the economy and the state of the economy.  The US is not falling off the edge of the world any time soon, and last I checked we still are (and will be for a while) the world leader in production and more importantly productivity.
But, this is even better for Grand Rapids.  It is only one of two cities in the nation that boasts of having a market leader (definied top 10) in all of the federally outlined economic markets.  Guess the only other city with a more diverse economy.

New York.  So no, Grand Rapids is far from being a purely production based town.  It is actually one of the most diverse economic regions in the world.  Furthermore, the lack of downtown space could also be explained by the four distinct downtown areas within the metro.  If they were all combined within the current geographical area of downtown Grand Rapids there would be almost twice the amount of development.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Supernova, do not be one blinded by a false sense of superiority, whether it be in regards to yourself or the nation in which you reside. I think that a superiority complex can create cognitive dissonance and denial in regards to facing reality. Look, all one has to do is go to the Bureau of Labor Statistics and see were the largest numerical increases in employment will be. Wait...I will do it for you by presenting a synopsis of their findings.

#Registered nurses (Associate degree)
#Postsecondary teachers (Doctoral degree)
#Retail salespersons (Short-term on-the-job training)
#Customer service representatives (  Moderate-term on-the-job training)
#Combined food preparation and serving
  workers, including fast food (Short-term on-the-job training)
#Cashiers, except gaming (Short-term on-the-job training)
#Janitors and cleaners, except maids
  and housekeeping cleaners (Short-term on-the-job training)
#General and operations managers (Bachelor's or higher degree, plus work experience)
#Waiters and waitresses (Short-term on-the-job training)
#Nursing aides, orderlies, and
  attendants ( Short-term on-the-job training )

REALITY

This is where the vast majority of our nation’s job growth will be in the next 10 years. Now, there are high-tech occupations which represent some of the fastest growing job opportunities in the nation, but the caveat to that is that a fast growing occupation can provide relatively few numerical increases in jobs relative to the above mentioned. Moreover, many IT and Engineering jobs that represent high growth occupations do not take into consideration of the current trends of off shoring these jobs. The type of Jobs that created Americas large middle class is rapidly dwindling being replaced by low pay service jobs, for those with no college education. Moreover, the economy is only demanding that 26% of the labor pool need a funtional college degree, which means that over 70% of the jobs demanded by the economy do not require college. It is those jobs that provided good pay with little education that will fade away.


The decline of the American economy is a lagging indicator of events shaping globally. The truth of the matter is that the USA is losing what is known as “Comparative Advantage” (look it up if you don’t remember the concept from your economics minor). With the growth of China and India, their economies have intellectual capital and cheap labor to produce a Comparative advantage in goods produced over that of the USA.

If the global market for labor was free to flow fluidly, the American worker wages and salaries would be bid down in competition with cheaper sources of labor. It does not take a rocket scientist to understand the laws of supply and demand under a free market. If the supply of commodity is increased relative to demand, the value of what is being supplied is reduced. What free trade and the Rise of third word economies has done is that it is increased the supply of labor that will compete to produce American corporate goods and services. That increased supply available to American corporations will reduce the value of the American worker, who no longer have leverage of supply dynamics, born from an isolated labor pool (the USA), keeping wages artificially high. Large untapped supplies of cheap labor will pull American wages down in a free market for labor which is manifesting under NAFTA and Globalization.

What you are practicing is not economics...its “hop-e-nomics”.

Edited by Freddy C, 29 March 2005 - 09:59 AM.

[joeDowntown]

America is doomed. The capitalist pigs have lost. Let's all move to Canada.

There are so many ways to look at data. Data is interpreted and you can look at it any way you want. I think we have beat this dead horse.

Next topic Freddy...

Joe

[superNOVA]

Wow, you proved my point.  Out of all of those fields, the average pay is probably $1 above minimum wage.  Service jobs are not the bread and butter of an economy.  They make nothing worth money, they simply collect the money of others and perform remedial tasks.  

The point is - service based industries are not what a region wants.  

Manufacturing is not dead, it is far from dead.  If anything it is doing better now than ever.  As world parity comes closer, expect to see issues like cost and outsourcing to vanish as companies once again look for a highly skilled workforce.

[Freddy C]

joeDowntown, on Mar 29 2005, 11:54 AM, said:

America is doomed. The capitalist pigs have lost. Let's all move to Canada.

There are so many ways to look at data. Data is interpreted and you can look at it any way you want. I think we have beat this dead horse.

Next topic Freddy...

Joe

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, it has never been popular to note that the emperor is disrobed, regardless of its validity. I guess I do not fit into this forum of zealous cheerleaders and “hopetamist” and now you want to control the direction and flow of what is discussed, by offering that I move to the next topic. I guess next someone will be accusing me of being anti-American or hating America simply for having the audacity to note the emperor’s nakedness. Oh how draconian and anti-freedom...crush or redirect dissent. Come now JoeDowntowm...you are better than that… are you not?

Look, I have a vested interest in America doing well, because I have a little daughter whom I want to have it better than I. I would not cut off my nose to spite my face. I am simply taking an honest look at what is transpiring so that I can properly prepare myself, as well as my daughter, to deal with the changing realities of this nation. It will not do me any good to assume American superiority will manifest a perennial spot atop the world. All great civilizations and empires eventually faded from their zenith and past glory. America is no different and has likely begun its natural dissent. It is those who have the objectivity and foresight who will be best prepared for the future. Not those blinded by a false sense of superiority, which they think will always result in our nation and people coming out on top.

[metrogrkid]

joeDowntown, on Mar 29 2005, 10:54 AM, said:

. . . . I think we have beat this dead horse.

Next topic Freddy...

Joe

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Joe - JOE!!!!!!!!

Would you please say this again except in ALL CAPS!!!

A SHRINE TO STATING THE OBVIOUS OVER AND OVER AGAIN WITH INFINITE VARIATION would find no better home than with this dead horse.  GOOD GRIEF!!  Those that are not "powerless" have a world-class metro area to grow.     Let's get on with stating what we want and then stating plans for getting it!  ARGGHH!!!!

Edited by metrogrkid, 29 March 2005 - 11:33 AM.

[Freddy C]

metrogrkid, on Mar 29 2005, 12:28 PM, said:

Joe - JOE!!!!!!!!

Would you please say this again except in ALL CAPS!!!

A SHRINE TO STATING THE OBVIOUS OVER AND OVER AGAIN WITH INFINITE VARIATION would find no better home than with this dead horse.  GOOD GRIEF!!  Those that are not "powerless" have a world-class metro area to grow.     Let's get on with stating what we want and then stating plans for getting it!  ARGGHH!!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Meanwhile: Steelcase Cuts Will "Hit Community Hard" "GM Cuts will affect West Michigan Parts Suppliers" "ElectroLux moves to Mexico"......and on and on. What does anyone with "power" on this forum have to offer these families and how will  building downtown make up for their lost earnings? Don't over exalt yourselves in your zealous enthusiasm that borders on pompousness. You might not have the "power" that you think you do.

I think that It would be very informative and balanced to have some of these people contribute to this forum.

FYI...don't challenge me....if you do not like what I write then please simply ignore it an me....but do not try and control me....I will go to the next topic when closure has been achieved in the one that I am on. Look...I WANT GR to be successful....how many times do I have to say that????? Because I do not share your outlook does not mean that I do not share the same dreams. BE FAIR.

Edited by Freddy C, 29 March 2005 - 12:43 PM.