Charlotte's Light Rail: Lynx Blue Line

[New Name]

I am a huge supporter of CATS, Light Rail and alternative transportation options. But at what point do we cut off the learning curve? It's been 8 months. If I had an 8 month learning curve at my job...well I would be fired. No one gets an 8 month learning curve.

[monsoon]

The roaring success of LYNX makes me think Charlotte should think big, really big. I think that with the upcoming new administration, the city should seek to build a multiline light rail system throughout the county. I think many are still looking at this with outdated eyes when so much has fundamentally changed to make light rail viable in much more territory.

This was actually done by someone here some time ago. See this this.

[BUILDIT]

thats an awesome mock up. It doesnt exactly fit in with our actual line now though. I would love to be able to take the rail to get anywhere in Charlotte, but I am going to have to keep dreaming. I still am puzzled why Cats hasnt done anything for Providence Rd with some kind of rail or streetcar like Muni. It would be beautiful.

Funding for these projects is going to be very difficult to get though

[Spartan]

in order to get a multi-county transit service we'd probably have to get the MPOs to consolidate as a sign that regional unity is a priority.

[grodney]

This was actually done by someone here some time ago. See this this.

Oh my god, I think I'm in love. I wish it weren't just a dream.

[DCMetroRaleigh]

I love the maps too. We must have a stop at the airport, and hopefully, South Park. Not having a stop at South Park is akin to DC leaving Georgetown out of its Metro system, which is thought of as one of the worst planning mistakes in the region's history.

[MZT]

News of the mundane... I think gas prices are getting soem of the Park'n'Rides to grudgingly fill up. I'd say Arrowwood and Scaleybark are more than half dull now.

[sax184]

I am not sure of the irony. CATS went $100M over budget which most has been identified to be the result of bungling by the management and their vendors. It was a huge waste of resources and gave birth to the transit tax repeal effort. Because of it a lot of things where short changed on the line which is causing issues with its capacity.

Look, I don't deny there were some clear oversight failures (the boiler at the maintenance facility, great example) and cost overruns, but the irony is that this project was built in a "keep the cost down regardless of the impact on future benefits" climate that stretched from Washington down to Charlotte.

Now, when the product has supremely over-delivered (16,000 daily riders in less than 1 year) and people are upset that the line is not longer, or that park-and-ride decks aren't big enough, the irony is that some of the same people who were saying "the ridership is going to be garbage, this thing is a waste, we shouldn't invest in LRT" are now saying CATS should've done more.

I just don't think people can have it both ways. The LRT is a wild success. It had some project and cost management problems that MUST be avoided in the future. Both statements are true and are not mutually exclusive. But it was also value-engineered in areas of performance (platform length a key example) to address the cost concern.

For LYNX to grow in success and for other investments to be better executed but just as successful, there needs to be a dose of realism that is informed by real-world performance of the line, and that in the future, it may be better to spend a little more money upfront than have to go back and add on pieces. And in the meantime, the public will need to be patient, and drive to different park and ride lots, or show up earlier, or request parking pricing to manage demand.

[grodney]

And in the meantime, the public will need to be patient, and drive to different park and ride lots, or show up earlier, or request parking pricing to manage demand.

But that's not reality. All this does is tick off potential riders and grow their opposition. Maybe it's only a small % being ticked off, but having articles published with unhelpful quotes from CATS people spreads the ill further.

The CATS guy should have said "We are doing everything we can, as fast as we can, to help the parking situation. We are aggressively pursuing agreements with nearby businesses, and we are trying to use adjacent CATS-owned land as soon as possible. In the (hopefully very short) mean time, we want to make sure our riders are aware of the park&ride lots at Carolina Place [and wherever] and as a last resort they can drive further up the line."

[tozmervo]

But that's not reality. All this does is tick off potential riders and grow their opposition. Maybe it's only a small % being ticked off, but having articles published with unhelpful quotes from CATS people spreads the ill further.

The classic "that place is always so packed, no one goes there anymore" approach.

[monsoon]

... The LRT is a wild success. .....

That really depends upon one's definition of success. It has become a very expensive mechanism for people to avoid having to pay for parking downtown. Hence the overloaded parking lots at the very end of the line. It has not so far, become a vehicle for people who live along the line to give up their cars as demonstrated by the almost abandoned stations between the two ends. If the goal was to truly provide a train for people to get from I-485 to downtown, then they could have done it for far less money by building a commuter rail train instead of light rail.

[Charlotte_native]

It has not so far, become a vehicle for people who live along the line to give up their cars as demonstrated by the almost abandoned stations between the two ends.

That may or may not be the case -- the people I know that ride the line that live in these areas walk to the line so the parking lot isn't an indicator of those folks. When you get to the end of the line stations there are fewer residences within walking distance of the line so the parking lots are likely more used.

[Raintree21]

Yes, many people are walking to the stations, especially in Southend and while it may not be a ton of people, some ride their bikes from further distances. Also, you can see that lots further down the line are beginning to fill up as well.

[monsoon]

That may or may not be the case -- the people I know that ride the line that live in these areas walk to the line so the parking lot isn't an indicator of those folks. ...

I wasn't using the parking lot as an indicator. There are no park and ride lots north of Scalybark.

[tozmervo]

That really depends upon one's definition of success. It has become a very expensive mechanism for people to avoid having to pay for parking downtown. Hence the overloaded parking lots at the very end of the line. It has not so far, become a vehicle for people who live along the line to give up their cars as demonstrated by the almost abandoned stations between the two ends. If the goal was to truly provide a train for people to get from I-485 to downtown, then they could have done it for far less money by building a commuter rail train instead of light rail.

485 and Sharon Rd P+Rs have a combined 1,308 parking spaces according to the CATS website. Generously speaking, lets say that they're actually parking 1,600. So that's 3,200 trips. That still leaves 13,039 trips in the system (based on the May numbers). Just how abandoned are the stations between? Even if you start subtracting out the cars from the other lots, you'd still be left with quite a number of folks that didn't just drive to the station avoid paying for parking downtown.

In the end, I guess I'm still not entirely on board with your critical comparison to commuter rail. I feel like the LYNX, especially with time, will prove to be far more versatile and "worth it" compared to what a commuter rail could offer. I don't think anyone expected people to start selling their cars after the Blue Line opened, but with it Charlotte has started crafting a system in which people will be able to one day. You could never make such a claim with commuter rail.

[monsoon]

^You are assuming that only 1600 cars use these lots during the day. I am willing to bet they have more cars coming in and out if they are completely full as a percentage of people will not use them completely during a daily operating cycle. There are also a significant number of bus riders being dropped off at these stations.

[ChiefJoJo]

Like I said before, I don't know why commuter rail is even entering the discussion. The capacity problems are related to parking and not being able to operate enough 2-car sets during "off-peak" times. Unfortunately, the parking and need for rail cars was underestimated, and costs were trimmed. Fortunately, CATS is attempting to look for more parking, and has purchased more cars. Unfortunately, the parking has not been found/negotiated yet, and the LRT vehicles take nearly 2 years to bring into service.

Commuter rail is appropriate for longer distance corridors (like the North line to Mooresville) where the distance between stations is much greater, so I could see (WAY into the future) a parallel CR line from Rock Hill to the Gateway Transit Center with maybe one coincident stop with the Blue Line... Rock Hill, Fort Mill, Pineville, Tyvola (connect to Lynx Blue), and Gateway TC. I could easily see something like that down the line.

[monsoon]

Like I said before, I don't know why commuter rail is even entering the discussion. .....

I explained it in my post. I realize this is a very touchy subject for some so I won't say anything else about it.

[sax184]

That really depends upon one's definition of success. It has become a very expensive mechanism for people to avoid having to pay for parking downtown. Hence the overloaded parking lots at the very end of the line. It has not so far, become a vehicle for people who live along the line to give up their cars as demonstrated by the almost abandoned stations between the two ends. If the goal was to truly provide a train for people to get from I-485 to downtown, then they could have done it for far less money by building a commuter rail train instead of light rail.

Your expectations for people living car-free lives 8 months after opening are unrealistic. It will take years for the full land-use response to the corridor to shake out. As that happens, and station areas densify, the ability to hop from one stop to the next for non-work trips will increase, and so will the ridership at intermediate stations.

As to defining success, ask 50 people in Charlotte if the line is a success, and I think you'll find 40-45 of them will say yes.

[uptownliving]

Meanwhile in other news the Trolley is averaging 102 riders every Saturday (the entire day) and 91 Riders on Sundays. Is this a wise investment of transit dollars? I'm begining to wonder if it is. If they were able to run Car 85 I could see the nostalgia/tourist aspect...but when the trolleys they run are only a couple years old...and are sometimes running literally empty. I'm not sure I see the point in continuing operation.

[kermit]

As to defining success, ask 50 people in Charlotte if the line is a success, and I think you'll find 40-45 of them will say yes.

I am one of the 45. As someone who lives in Dilworth and works in U City I vote success. I have made three 'local' round trips in the past five days (lunch with my daughter at Tyvola, car repair drop off at woodlawn and a trip to the movies at 485). I suspect my 'local' use of the line will continue at this level until the NE line is built out.

In the wishful thinking department: Can the current inventory of trolly's run in mixed traffic? Those rails on Elizabeth ave. sure are tempting....

[tozmervo]

[Nostyle]

I gotta tell you guys what happened on the train this morning. It was the 7:52 train heading inbound. I got on at 485 and stood in the back. At I believe Archdale a man tried getting on the train with a shopping cart full of big boxes and some bags. The conductor got on the p/a and told the guy he couldn't bring the cart onboard, so the guy started unloading these boxes from the cart and putting them on the train. We all watched in disbelief. There must've been 10 or more big boxes, maybe 10 small boxes, and some bags of something. As it turned out, the bigger boxes were cases of beer, the smaller boxes were cases of cigarettes, and the bags were full of raw shrimp. This guy planned to take these somewhere to sell them. It took him maybe 2-3 minutes to load everything on the train. We couldn't believe it. Finally we started moving again and this guy stood there with his boxes, smiling and asking at least twice why everyone was in a bad mood and nobody was smiling. "It's Friday," he said, "cheer up and smile!"

So at New Bern he decided it was time to get off the train. Of course, New Bern's stations are on the outside of the train, so he had to unload all of these boxes from the far side of the traincar. More than one fellow passenger helped him get his boxes out, for the sake of speeding up the process. When he was finally done he cheerfully thanked those that helped and asked if anyone wanted a beer on him. We all politely smiled and chuckled at what we thought was a joke...until he broke open a case of Budweiser, grabbed a bottle in each hand, and ran back to the open train door, offering the beer to anyone that would take it. At first everyone resisted but then people started taking the beer, probably just hoping it would help get rid of this guy quicker...BUT...he went back to the case of beer, grabbed a couple more, came back to the train, and offered them up. By the time he was done he had probably passed out 8 beers. He then ran to the next train door up, and did the same thing. Finally the conductor managed to close the doors, and as we pulled away from the station we could see this guy giving a couple of beers to some Pepsi employees, through the barbed wire fence. It was crazy. And there we were, all laughing and smiling about it, with a train full of people holding beers.

But I thought the funniest part of the whole thing was that there was this older woman not far from me on the train who was riding for the first time. She wasn't even sure which stop was hers but she knew she had to get to BofA Corporate Center. As this whole crazy event unfolded she was asking "I've never been on here before...is it like this all the time???" Could you imagine something like this being your first impression of the light rail?

[Andyc545]

Wow- that is certainly an unconventional situation that hasn't really been seen on here. So let's do an "interesting LYNX" rundown here:

1) Suicide by Train before it even opens

2) Silos collapse on the rails

3) Drunk guy passes out beers to passengers from his loaded shopping cart-worth of boxes

...Tales of the Rails ...

Edited June 21, 2008 by Andyc545

[Nostyle]

^He wasn't drunk. He actually seemed quite with it, and in a good mood. The only time he showed any hostility was when the conductor used the p/a to ask him to hurry up when unloading at New Bern, to which the guy replied by yelling "this would've been a lot faster if I could've brought my damn cart on!"