Plaza-Midwood Projects (Central, Commonwealth, The Plaza)

[voyager12]

That is true as well CN. I guess its a result of a combination of factors and its replicated in cities all over the country. I think this type of gentrification is more acute in Charlotte because we are a relatively smaller and new city. In New York or Boston or Philly and other older cities there is always the next "hood" to be discovered, I don't see the next burgeoning NoDa or PlazaMidwood elsewhere in central Charlotte and that is worrying. And I don't have any animosity towards yuppies, they just seem to outnumber me everywhere I live :-)

Edited October 18, 2006 by voyager12

[ElricSeven]

That is true as well CN. I guess its a result of a combination of factors and its replicated in cities all over the country. I think this type of gentrification is more acute in Charlotte because we are a relatively smaller and new city. In New York or Boston or Philly and other older cities there is always the next "hood" to be discovered, I don't see the next burgeoning NoDa or PlazaMidwood elsewhere in central Charlotte and that is worrying. And I don't have any animosity towards yuppies, they just seem to outnumber me everywhere I live :-)

There are plenty of [insert alternative word for crap]holes that the edgy folks can go to next. They're being created as rapidly as they're being destroyed. Head out past Woodlawn along S. Blvd for instance, or along West Blvd.

[Charlotte_native]

That is true as well CN. I guess its a result of a combination of factors and its replicated in cities all over the country. I think this type of gentrification is more acute in Charlotte because we are a relatively smaller and new city. In New York or Boston or Philly and other older cities there is always the next "hood" to be discovered, I don't see the next burgeoning NoDa or PlazaMidwood elsewhere in central Charlotte and that is worrying. And I don't have any animosity towards yuppies, they just seem to outnumber me everywhere I live :-)

I think what you see are the results of gentrification that are from occurances that have already happened. These developers would not be investing in these areas if the momentum, price increases, and other factors were not already there. What you discussed before might be more of a factor of "when the condos are a'comin" gentrification is already there and in full swing.

[voyager12]

Hey now, us moderate income folk are just as integral to neighborhood vitality as wealthier residents. A mix of incomes is what makes urban neighborhoods thriving and interesting. I am glad that there are still reasonably priced older apts available for rent in Dilworth, or I would not be able to enjoy this great neighborhood. Give me an old apt house with some heart and soul before a characterless place in suburbia anytime. I suppose a likely scenario is PlazaMidwood morphing into Dilworth. Predominantly yuppie with pockets of funkiness left over. Hopefully a few more vestiges than what's left in Dilworth now.

Edited October 18, 2006 by voyager12

[Charlotte_native]

Hey now, us moderate income folk are just as integral to neighborhood vitality as wealthier residents. A mix of incomes is what makes urban neighborhoods thriving and interesting. I am glad that there are still reasonably priced older apts available for rent in Dilworth, or I would not be able to enjoy this great neighborhood. Give me an old apt house with some heart and soul before a characterless place in suburbia anytime. I suppose a likely scenario is PlazaMidwood morphing into Dilworth. Predominantly yuppie with pockets of funkiness left over. Hopefully a few more vestiges than what's left in Dilworth now.

Hmmmmm...I think you have misunderstood me. I think neighborhoods with a mix of everything are best including income levels -- my comments should not have implied anything otherwise. All I was pointing out was that condos are not the "reason" for change in an area, but more of an indication that change is either there or has been happening already. The only areas of the city I have seen where condos came before the gentrification or an already existing rise in prices are Optimist Park and Belmont -- and those arguably have been "on the move" already, just not in full swing (though everyone sees or saw it coming).

[voyager12]

I was referencing Elric, CN. So I got your point and we agree Do you know if the Morningside redevelopment or any other large scale projects in the Central Ave area will have more affordable components?

[cinco]

That is true as well CN. I guess its a result of a combination of factors and its replicated in cities all over the country. I think this type of gentrification is more acute in Charlotte because we are a relatively smaller and new city. In New York or Boston or Philly and other older cities there is always the next "hood" to be discovered, I don't see the next burgeoning NoDa or PlazaMidwood elsewhere in central Charlotte and that is worrying. And I don't have any animosity towards yuppies, they just seem to outnumber me everywhere I live :-)

i feel you... however, the cycle continues even in charlotte. there are plenty of options of areas that are in need of a renissance. it just takes a brave few to pioneer the transmogrification. for instance, i was speaking to kc (from fat city) the other day, he told me he's been purchasing property not too far outside the loop up statesville ave. he thinks the fabric of that area is ripe for a change and say what you will about the guy - if it were not for him pioneering north davidson, it would not be what it is today. IMO.

some people might view these areas as "crapholes"... but, some people think that all the condos and new construction are nothing but plastic, ego stroking, culture vaccums. i personally don't think either of those characterizations is absolute and that we need all of it to make our city great.

V12, if you build it - they will come.

maybe.

[voyager12]

We do need all of "it" to make Charlotte great. And I really don't see the impetus to preserve it in the places that have some alternative style right now. Its much harder to build it back in. I am not against all the new condos in PlazaMidwood and Elizabeth I just wish there was more of a balance. I really don't think the city of Charlotte is going to get behind the artist housing Artspace program. So its going to be the same old story along Central and Thomas that it is along North Davidson in the coming years. I just hope they don't eventually call it "The Penguin Lofts" or I am out of here. That will be too much

Edited October 19, 2006 by voyager12

[atlrvr]

What is supposed to balance it out...building old condos?

Neighborhoods are cyclical....in 40 years, no one will be wanting to live in Plaza Midwood, and there will be a large supply of dense funky housing to be inhabitted and rehabbed by the urban pioneers.

[voyager12]

What would balance it out would be affordable housing for those of us who can't afford brand new condos but still enjoy and contribute to the area's vitality. High end condos are not the answer to everything. This has been done in other more progressive cities through tax incentive programs and special zoning. A perfect example being the program passed by Charleston City Council, my former hometown on Tuesday. Why can't a large development like Morningside have this program so all the current residents don't have to lose their homes and can enjoy new ones along with their new neighbors? City of Charleston Workforce Housing Plan If 15 percent of the housing units in a new mixed-use development qualify as below-market-rate housing, builders can construct more units, but with fewer parking spaces than typically required. A mixed-use development blends housing with commercial uses, such as shops or offices.

--Prospective buyers of the "workforce housing" may earn no more than 120 percent of the area median income, and the sale price may not exceed three times the income limit, which varies by family size. For a family of four, the income limit would be $67,080, so the maximum sale price for a workforce unit would be $201,240.

--If workforce units are to be rented, tenants may earn no more than 80 percent of median income, which works out to $44,720 for a family of four. The rent would be tied to the federal government's "fair market rent" standard for the area, currently from $529 for an efficiency apartment to $864 for a three-bedroom unit.

Workforce housing must meet income and price tests for 10 years. After that, the units could go on the open market.

Edited October 19, 2006 by voyager12

[atlrvr]

But there is lots of affordable housing in the city, both subsidized, and not subsidized....the fact is, most people want to live in the "coolest/trendiest" hoods for less than the market cost. Beyond that, there are lots of very cheap apartments in almost every intown neighborhood, they just happen to be from the 1950's and don't offer all the amenities of a brand new building.

[Charlotte_native]

I really don't think the city of Charlotte is going to get behind the artist housing Artspace program.

I don't think it is really a matter of the city getting behind this program as much as the arts community itself. Artspace requires a study of the market, most especially the artists in the market, to demonstrate the need for affordable housing for artists. They "survey" the area and ask for input from arts groups and the artists themselves. It is yet to be seen if these target folks take the time to stay involved and get this requirement done. Basically they put the ball back in our court -- show the need for them and backing for them and they will come. Even then, however, they said at best it would be 2 - 4 years before anything would be in place.

They also look for "new" areas -- they were not very interested in North Davidson because it is already on the map. We discussed more pioneering areas which interested them more: Derita, Wilkinson blvd corridor, North Tryon -- places like that.

[voyager12]

First Ward Village is a successful example of a mixed income development. I think it should be replicated more and could fit in this area of the city quite well. Is Piedmont Courts going to be mixed use? Aside from that SouthPark's Live Oak redo that is supposed to reserve space for the residents that had to leave during redevelopment, it's hardly written in stone. I think a stronger stance from City Council would be helpful and better oversight so there is not another Meck Mill disaster. As far as being willing to live in older less amenity filled apt buildings...from the 50s and even earlier..I am in one at least for this month

Edited October 19, 2006 by voyager12

[MZT]

It's not just artsy bohemian types being priced out. I thought through what I've paid for apartments-- and the two homes I've owned. A comfortable monthly payment for me seems to be around 25% of after tax income. (Beyond that, and I start strategizing about getting a roommate to help...)

I'll throw on an additional $200 a month above that, for a "coolness and feel hip about your digs" factor, that goes beyond basic living standards. Plus assume that I'd pay down the mortgage for a year, by plowing all of my additional income into it, to get the balance down to "comfortable" levels. And as well, scrounging up all of my existing life savings plus sale of my current home for a down payment.

And what is the max purchase price, that I could convince myself to swing? About $250,000. Even as an uptown professional, the new condos are getting out of reach. The cheapest units in First Ward are asking about $350,000 on the MLS, and it just goes way up from there...

(Hmm. Maybe this post should have gone in the "Who will Buy the Condos?" thread.)

Edited October 20, 2006 by MZT

[graydog]

It's not just artsy bohemian types being priced out. I thought through what I've paid for apartments-- and the two homes I've owned. A comfortable monthly payment for me seems to be around 25% of after tax income. (Beyond that, and I start strategizing about getting a roommate to help...)

I'll throw on an additional $200 a month above that, for a "coolness and feel hip about your digs" factor, that goes beyond basic living standards. Plus assume that I'd pay down the mortgage for a year, by plowing all of my additional income into it, to get the balance down to "comfortable" levels. And as well, scrounging up all of my existing life savings plus sale of my current home for a down payment.

And what is the max purchase price, that I could convince myself to swing? About $250,000. Even as an uptown professional, the new condos are getting out of reach. The cheapest units in First Ward are asking about $350,000 on the MLS, and it just goes way up from there...

(Hmm. Maybe this post should have gone in the "Who will Buy the Condos?" thread.)

Want my advice? Watch "Fight Club" and read "The Millionaire Next Door". You'll save at least $200 per month.

[dubone]

Just for accuracy-sake. There are much much cheaper places in First Ward than 350k! Even 1000sf places can be found for much less than that. They just aren't on MLS in October.

It's not just artsy bohemian types being priced out. I thought through what I've paid for apartments-- and the two homes I've owned. A comfortable monthly payment for me seems to be around 25% of after tax income. (Beyond that, and I start strategizing about getting a roommate to help...)

I'll throw on an additional $200 a month above that, for a "coolness and feel hip about your digs" factor, that goes beyond basic living standards. Plus assume that I'd pay down the mortgage for a year, by plowing all of my additional income into it, to get the balance down to "comfortable" levels. And as well, scrounging up all of my existing life savings plus sale of my current home for a down payment.

And what is the max purchase price, that I could convince myself to swing? About $250,000. Even as an uptown professional, the new condos are getting out of reach. The cheapest units in First Ward are asking about $350,000 on the MLS, and it just goes way up from there...

(Hmm. Maybe this post should have gone in the "Who will Buy the Condos?" thread.)

[sfmartin]

I checked out the site for PlazaVu yesterday afternoon - I don't think any housing is being lost in this deal. It's an old (empty for a while) plumbing office and a couple of other converted residences. These are definately not cool/funky places.

I also suspect that the only way places like Common Market, Dish and the Penguin will suffer from the development is b/c they become too busy and are constantly clogged w/ folks. People of all stripes love original/local businesses and tire of the franchise ridden sameness. Hopefully Graham will take more of a Grubb approach to the retail portion of Morningside and stay away from Pappas' Midtown approach - quality over largesse.

[voyager12]

I hope you are right. But if neighborhoods do operate in "cycles" as everyone on here says and gentrification is inevitable..I see no chance of PlazaMidwood not becoming as chain dominated as Dilworth is now and Elizabeth is becoming. The former used to be a very funky neighborhood from what long time residents tell me. And Dilworth is still a wonderful neighborhood and I love it but you can't say it has much " character" anymore. And a large segment of Elizabeth's 7th St is becoming redeveloped into high end condos with chain stores below, replacing independent quirky eateries. Why should The Thomas Ave strip be immune? I am not bashing, this seems to be the way "it is", I just hope there is another area to migrate to when this strip is Ballantyned. I don't see it right now.

[Charlotte_native]

And what is the max purchase price, that I could convince myself to swing? About $250,000. Even as an uptown professional, the new condos are getting out of reach. The cheapest units in First Ward are asking about $350,000 on the MLS, and it just goes way up from there...

(Hmm. Maybe this post should have gone in the "Who will Buy the Condos?" thread.)

There are 12 condos listed in 1st Ward for under $250,000, most are 1 bedrooms, 4 have 2 bedrooms, one is listed for $197,000 at 800 SF.

6 in 3rd Ward under $250,000, only one has two bedrooms, all are 800 SF or larger, one is listed under $200,000...

33 units in 4th Ward under $250,000, about 1/3 of them are 2 bedrooms, and a surprising 15 of them are under 200k -- they start at $138,000.

I only point this out because all of uptown might not be as expensive as many think and all the units might not be as small as you think.

[Charlotte_native]

I hope you are right. But if neighborhoods do operate in "cycles" as everyone on here says and gentrification is inevitable..I see no chance of PlazaMidwood not becoming as chain dominated as Dilworth is now and Elizabeth is becoming.

Dilworth is "chain" dominated? There are chains, Moe's, Outback, Showmars, Roly Poly, Starbucks, Caribou. But they are far outnumbered by non-chain locals: Sole, Cantina, City Tavern, Japanese "i", Catayna (?), Brixx, Patou, Zen, the Italian place near Zen, Kabab Grill, 300 East, Copper, Comet Grill, Tyber Creek.

As for shopping East Blvd is primarily, if not all, locally owned and operated other than the Harri Teet and one or two other shops.

I think Dilworth has a ton of character that remains and is true to what I found here in 1998 when I moved here. I hope Plaza-Midwood and the Commonwealth and Central Avenue areas will retain the same and suspect they will though supplemented with new projects and, yes, some chains.

Edited October 20, 2006 by Charlotte_native

[MZT]

There are 12 condos listed in 1st Ward for under $250,000, most are 1 bedrooms, 4 have 2 bedrooms, one is listed for $197,000 at 800 SF.

...

uptown might not be as expensive as many think, and all the units might not be as small as you think.

I queried again, and there are more listings than I thought. (Remove foot from mouth.) I must have left an extra parameter somewhere in last night's search.

Edited October 20, 2006 by MZT

[voyager12]

You are right, Dilworth has more indies if you look closely. I suppose I am numbed from the chains that surround it so I lose focus. I may be jumping the gun but I lived along King St in Charleston for years and watched it get malled over. Watched the same thing happen in New Hope,PA. And my neighborhood in Philly. A balanced mix would be nice. Oh and its Catalunya, and I hear its great but I have not made it over there yet to check it out I also need to clarify what I meant by "character". Historically and visually Dilworth has great character. Politically it even leans a little left of center for Charlotte for which I am grateful From a socioeconomic standpoint the neighborhood is dominated by affluent white people and has very little diversity and character in this respect. One of the things I enjoy about East Charlotte and Plaza Midwood is the cultural diversity and there will be an erosion of it as these projects get underway and push lower income minorities out and that is a shame. Herein ends my gentrifcation rant

Edited October 20, 2006 by voyager12

[cinco]

Has anyone else heard that the former drycleaners next to Central27 is going to be a vegetarian restaurant?

whatever it ends up being... it will be pretty cool. a friend of mine is one of the owners and has been a local fixture for a long time. @ first it was going to be breakfast/biscuit house, then i heard vegetarian... that was a while back and they are keeping it under tight lip. one things for sure - it will be another example of plaza/midwood's enduring character.

[Bossanova]

You are right, Dilworth has more indies if you look closely. I suppose I am numbed from the chains that surround it so I lose focus. I may be jumping the gun but I lived along King St in Charleston for years and watched it get malled over. Watched the same thing happen in New Hope,PA. And my neighborhood in Philly. A balanced mix would be nice. Oh and its Catalunya, and I hear its great but I have not made it over there yet to check it out

Has anyone else heard that the former drycleaners next to Central27 is going to be a vegetarian restaurant?

Earlier in this thread (maybe halfway through), a poster named Turbocraig wrote this:

a friend of mine is opening a vegetarian based restaurant @ the corner of central and thomas st. where once stood a dry cleaner. there will be a focus on breakfast but he also talked of being open late @ night, but not a 24 venue. anyways, the name being floated around for the time being is "RISE and SHINE, 28205". i doubt that will end up being the final name... but who knows. the owner of this place is a born & bred charlottean and has tons of pride in the heritage of the city... it should be nice.

If you run a search on "vegetarian" in this thread, I believe all the related threads will come up. Hope this helps.

[cinco]

actually, i wrote that awhile back. thanks for pulling it back up.

*the only new thing i've heard is that, that will NOT be the name of the place

Edited October 20, 2006 by cinco