Twelve Weston (Formerly known as 35 and 41 S Division)

[mpchicago]

Ted - Can you offer any insight into your design?  I really don't think this is to tall for the area.

[GRDadof3]

Ted - Can you offer any insight into your design?  I really don't think this is to tall for the area.

 

Agreed. Height seems like an arbitrary thing to object to.

[x99]

Agreed. Height seems like an arbitrary thing to object to.

 

I agree.  The height is not the issue, and the HPC needs to move on from that.  The practical issue is how to get the height right while respecting the fact that this is replacing two beautiful old buildings that we have not yet forgotten.  How do you walk down Division, look at the existing buildings, and come up with this?  

 

I'm somewhat amused to see Ted Lott designed this.  My comments above still stand.  Ted's portfolio does not suggest he has ever had to utilize the classical orders or other traditional rules required to make load-bearing masonry look right (even if it isn't actually load bearing).  Unfortunately, that's become the norm for many architects, so it isn't a strong criticism (see, e.g. Kent County Courthouse 11 story blank brick and glass curtain wall held up by a combination of air and matchsticks for a particularly egregious example of utter crap). 

 

On the bright side, this is at least brick and not metal panels.  Hopefully Ted does have the talent to draw something better and do the brick justice, and can convince Rockford that something beautiful and impressive will be worth the nominal added expense.  Blow their hair back, and HPC will approve it, even if it is 250 feet tall.  Design something where the Interwebs collectively screams "OMGz!! We Just NEEdZ to HAVE tHIS!!!!!!!"   Show Robert A.M. Stern you can beat them at their own game.

[GRDadof3]

I agree.  The height is not the issue, and the HPC needs to move on from that.  The practical issue is how to get the height right while respecting the fact that this is replacing two beautiful old buildings that we have not yet forgotten.  How do you walk down Division, look at the existing buildings, and come up with this?  

 

I'm somewhat amused to see Ted Lott designed this.  My comments above still stand.  Ted's portfolio does not suggest he has ever had to utilize the classical orders or other traditional rules required to make load-bearing masonry look right (even if it isn't actually load bearing).  Unfortunately, that's become the norm for many architects, so it isn't a strong criticism (see, e.g. Kent County Courthouse 11 story blank brick and glass curtain wall held up by a combination of air and matchsticks for a particularly egregious example of utter crap). 

 

On the bright side, this is at least brick and not metal panels.  Hopefully Ted does have the talent to draw something better and do the brick justice, and can convince Rockford that something beautiful and impressive will be worth the nominal added expense.  Blow their hair back, and HPC will approve it, even if it is 250 feet tall.  Design something where the Interwebs collectively screams "OMGz!! We Just NEEdZ to HAVE tHIS!!!!!!!"   Show Robert A.M. Stern you can beat them at their own game.

 

If it were me, I'd do metal panels just to spite you. I don't think patronization goes over very well when it comes to architects, having known more than a few of them over my lifetime. Not to speak for Ted anyway, who does post here occasionally.

[Allison Slater]

On the issue of cost, certainly sculpted masonry work would send the costs sky-high, but I don't really see how creative brickwork would.  The buildings which once stood there were mostly brick through-and-through, but still looked interesting.  I think the biggest problem with modern brickwork is that it's just flat.  There's no variance to it.  The buildings which stood there before used bricks turned outward, breaking up the flatness and creating design at the same time, without demanding much more in terms of materials.  I don't think I've seen this implemented on a single building since the pre-war era.  I'm guessing most of it isn't actual brick anymore but rather panels.  Would it really be that hard to fabricate some brick panels that include a turned-brick design to create vertical elements or frame groups of windows?  (Not rhetorical, but seriously asking.)  It seems to be that it should be a pretty low-cost way to get some character back into buildings.

[joeDowntown]

Because the HPC has to complain about something?

[joeDowntown]

X99 - I still want to see what you envision here. A lot of hot air is coming out, but I still haven't seen what would satisfy your appetite for grandeur (hopefully not the big f**king clock building). I travel a lot and see infill 20x worse than this design in cities people here envy. Guess I'm just interested in what would blow you away (within a reasonable budget)?

Joe

[Ted]

We're right in the middle of a public process. I'd love to talk more about the project but I can't.

 

We're excited about the project and the process. And, we'll share more when we can. 

[x99]

X99 - I still want to see what you envision here. A lot of hot air is coming out, but I still haven't seen what would satisfy your appetite for grandeur (hopefully not the big f**king clock building). I travel a lot and see infill 20x worse than this design in cities people here envy. Guess I'm just interested in what would blow you away (within a reasonable budget)?

Joe

 

As a city, we're in a unique situation somewhat inasmuch as a 10+ story building is being proposed in a historic district where we don't really know the project budget.  I suspect the budget isn't such that we'll actually be able to blow anyone away, but there is certainly opportunity to do better without blowing the budget.  Here's a few recent buildings in Ft. Worth, TX, most designed by David M. Swartz, who is extraordinarily talented.  I suspect most of these would be quite affordable, actually.  Ft. Worth went nuts on them once they found themselves a talented architect:

 

Caceria Building (Gideon Toal, not Swartz):

And an interesting picture of it going up:

http://www.fortwortharchitecture.com/caceria2.jpg

For something taller that would blow them away, the Carnegie Building (2008) also in Ft. Worth (Swartz):

 

Westbrook Building:

 

 

Commerce Building:

Chase Bank Building:

Cassidy Building, which is actually three buildings:

 

 

 

 

Swartz's entire portfolia is dripping with the sort of talent that is sorely needed in some of GR's architecture.  He's even got some glass curtain wall buildings that are far, far superior to anything we've been getting here.  http://www.dmsas.com/#/portfolio/all

 

Swartz has a really good quote too, where he says he doesn't design things to wind up on the cover of an architectural magazine, but the cover of the local phone book.  I like that idea.

Edited February 6, 2015 by x99

[walker]

 

Westbrook Building:

 

 

 

 

GOOD STUFF.  I particularly like the Westbrook Building.  It reminds me of this Albert Kahn building where I used to work in Detroit:

 

[x99]

GOOD STUFF.  I particularly like the Westbrook Building.  It reminds me of this Albert Kahn building where I used to work in Detroit:

 

It's actually sort of a fascinating tale of how one architecture firm basically recreated a town from scratch, and did so extremely successfully by using human-scaled, attractive architecture with traditional planning.  Fort Worth was a desolate, auto-centric surface parking lot mecca with some really bad urban renewal projects and unfriendly buildings. (Sound familiar?)  Then David Schwarz by some happenstance did an entire urban plan for Ford Worth back in the eighties.  They've been designing the whole town ever since, with remarkable success.  There's been very little press about it, because none of it was all that flashy--their goal was simply to design a place where people would want to walk.  Kind of a good read, and a perfect example of what can happen when you get a good urban architect who understands not just the buildings, but how a town is supposed to function.  http://dmsasparchment.com/2013/10/24/the-renaissance-of-cowtown-creating-a-downtown-plan-that-gave-texans-a-place-to-walk/comment-page-1/

 

I'm really hoping we can finally get something right along Division.  I don't know that just one building done right could make a huge difference, but it might.  I'm tired of seeing our urban fabric built out with this unsympathic, cold, pedestrian-unfriendly garbage like Gallery on Fulton, the GRAM, the Courthouse, Fifth Third Center, Calder Plaza Building, City Hall, you name it... 

Edited February 6, 2015 by x99

[GRDadof3]

Those are nice looking buildings, if you're a classicist. It's always great to have some diversity though, like Canary wharf:

 

 

 

 

 

[john_denver]

They need to do something like the above picture on the SW corner of Fulton & Market.

[x99]

Those are nice looking buildings, if you're a classicist. It's always great to have some diversity though, like Canary wharf:

 

I picked them in part because Fort Worth in 1990 had a population of about 440,000 spread out over about 300 square miles.  We had 190,000 in 40 square miles.   Now Fort Worth has about 750,000 in that space.  We still have only 190,000 in the city proper.  But, if you look at the larger area, we have gone from 500,000 to 600,000, with most of that gain in the what would amount to an area the size of Fort Worth.  So the size of our cities are not that dissimilar.  In the immediate core, Fort Worth's population from 2000 to 2010 went up by over 130%.  We went up 30%.  Fort Worth also added more than 5000 parking spaces downtown, along with lots of restaurants, shops, and offices.  Grand Rapids?  Not so much.  But if you walk through the core, our built environment still isn't that appealing.  Fort Worth's used to be as bad as ours.  Now, it's quite good. 

 

I may be completely off base, but I think the quality of the architecture and the quality of planning that D.M.Schwarz brought to the table--even if reviled by the cognoscenti--had an awful lot to do with what happened in Fort Worth.  I like examples of what is doable for a city of our size (unlike fabulously expensive London buildings).  I just wish Rockford or Orion or someone would actually hire an architect with proven talent at designing and building a city people will flock to.  Or even just hire them to help our locals improve their game.

Edited February 6, 2015 by x99

[Veloise]

...  Here's a few recent buildings in Ft. Worth, TX...

 

Caceria Building (Gideon Toal, not Swartz):

And an interesting picture of it going up:

http://www.fortwortharchitecture.com/caceria2.jpg

...

^^ Love it!

 

 

 

GOOD STUFF.  I particularly like the Westbrook Building.  It reminds me of this Albert Kahn building where I used to work in Detroit:

 

 

aka the Detroit Free Press.

Edited February 6, 2015 by Veloise

[x99]

On the issue of cost, certainly sculpted masonry work would send the costs sky-high, but I don't really see how creative brickwork would.  The buildings which once stood there were mostly brick through-and-through, but still looked interesting.  I think the biggest problem with modern brickwork is that it's just flat.  There's no variance to it.  The buildings which stood there before used bricks turned outward, breaking up the flatness and creating design at the same time, without demanding much more in terms of materials.  I don't think I've seen this implemented on a single building since the pre-war era.  I'm guessing most of it isn't actual brick anymore but rather panels.  Would it really be that hard to fabricate some brick panels that include a turned-brick design to create vertical elements or frame groups of windows?  (Not rhetorical, but seriously asking.)  It seems to be that it should be a pretty low-cost way to get some character back into buildings.

 

I didn't realize this, but it turns out glass is fantastically expensive.  Brick is less than half the cost.  See http://www.gobricksoutheast.com/CostComparisons/2014WallCostComparison4Web.pdf  According to the article at http://therealdeal.com/issues_articles/back-to-brick/   "one building ... started out as complete glass but had to replace a percentage of the exterior with stone because of escalating costs".  So, wait--marble or limestone is cheaper than a glass curtain wall?     FWIW, Belden will make you about any custom brick you want (and does have a stock portfolio), which would increase costs somewhat, but still likely nowhere near the cost of glass if virtually every article I could find on the subject is to be believed.

 

Think about it Rockford:  Fire Ted Lott (because he has appears to have no idea how to do traditional masonry design based on the above), hire David M. Schwarz/Architectural Services, then add some more stories to make even more money (height restrictions be da--ed!  this building will be awesome!), all while making everyone on the HPC grin from ear to ear while you build the City's newest icon.  That's what I call a homerun right there!  And here I thought it would be too expensive to do that.  Silly me.  Save the glass tower for the CBD.

Edited February 6, 2015 by x99

[Allison Slater]

 

Chase Bank Building:

 

Different coloured brick used to create visual patterns, creating detail and ornamentation without increasing the materials needed.  Picture that building without the cornices and the patterning.  You now have a solid, flat, boring wall of brick with windows, which seems to be really common.  Again, surely patterning like this can be achieved even with brick panelling without increasing the cost?  Why aren't we doing it?

[Allison Slater]

I'm not going to jump to suggesting anyone be fired. What I would like to see however is discussion on how, when going for more classical elements, we can achieve more than just brick walls without increasing the cost prohibitively.

[x99]

Just in case anyone has forgotten the proposed architectural treasure being discussed that will still look really awesome in 20 years.  In a historic district.  Uh-huh.

 

[Allison Slater]

Keep in mind the architect is usually at the whim of the developer, as well.  If the developed says glass building as much as the HPC will allow, that is what the architect must do.  I wouldn't blame that on Ted.

[Raildudes dad]

Pretty sure some of the above photos of buildings are precast concrete panels. http://www.stonecastproducts.com/ These guys over in WI have done some architectural stuff. Kerkstra here in town can make the panels but the architect needs to use the material. check out this site as well. I get their magazine which shows some pretty neat stuff. http://www.pci.org/

[x99]

I'm not going to jump to suggesting anyone be fired. What I would like to see however is discussion on how, when going for more classical elements, we can achieve more than just brick walls without increasing the cost prohibitively.

 

The problem is, I doubt Lott3Metz wants to design something like that in the first place.  Not exactly their calling card.  But, maybe Rockford did drive the design process, I don't know.  What I do know is that what came out of that process wasn't very good by anyone's account so far.  The way you fix it is to build the whole thing in masonry with half the cost of the glass curtain walls.  Lots of room in the budget to dress up the whole structure then.  Now that I know the glass likely costs more than a brick and limestone structure, there is no longer an excuse for any of this building in a designated district on a high profile location on Division.  Plenty of examples have now been posted of projects that likely would not cost more, and would look appropriate.

[GRDadof3]

I didn't realize this, but it turns out glass is fantastically expensive.  Brick is less than half the cost.  See http://www.gobricksoutheast.com/CostComparisons/2014WallCostComparison4Web.pdf  According to the article at http://therealdeal.com/issues_articles/back-to-brick/   "one building ... started out as complete glass but had to replace a percentage of the exterior with stone because of escalating costs".  So, wait--marble or limestone is cheaper than a glass curtain wall?     FWIW, Belden will make you about any custom brick you want (and does have a stock portfolio), which would increase costs somewhat, but still likely nowhere near the cost of glass if virtually every article I could find on the subject is to be believed.

 

Think about it Rockford:  Fire Ted Lott (because he has appears to have no idea how to do traditional masonry design based on the above), hire David M. Schwarz/Architectural Services, then add some more stories to make even more money (height restrictions be da--ed!  this building will be awesome!), all while making everyone on the HPC grin from ear to ear while you build the City's newest icon.  That's what I call a homerun right there!  And here I thought it would be too expensive to do that.  Silly me.  Save the glass tower for the CBD.

 

 

Wow, asking for Ted to be fired? I'd qualify that as stepping over the line. We all like to throw around jabs and snarky insults on this site, but actually slandering a licensed professional in the community to encourage them to be fired opens you up x99 for legal action. You won't be able to hide behind UrbanPlanet on that one.

 

I've already had 3 or 4 people ask me who you are. I'm sure the site owners could figure it out.

 

So why don't you take a break from this thread for a while. If you want to protest the drawings, you should do so at the next HPC meeting.

[john_denver]

Good job GRDado3 for keeping this respectable...I was growing tired of reading this thread because of x99.

[joeDowntown]

So is a style from the past the only thing that is 'appropriate' for this area? If you look at cities as a whole, they weren't built in a decade with one style in mind. In fact, what makes most older cities unique is the quantities of styles. Personally, I think most of the stuff shown from Fort Worth is pandering to the past and somewhat Disney-esque.

I like classic architecture as much as anyone but I'm not in like with most of the examples shown.

Also, you're starting to poke the bear a bit. Be respectful of other members on the forum.

Joe

EDIT: And I guess I didn't read GRDads post before firing off my reply. LOL