1 Brevard - 28 Story Tower at 4th & Brevard in 2nd Ward

[DMann]

It is in MLS as Under Contract, Show.  Units 806, 2009, 2211

[BuzzCity]

Don't worry, there won't be many more under contract before this project is scrapped

[Ryan20]

It will be disappointing if this project gets scrapped only because it will discourage other developers from building new high rise condos. Hopefully they will be smart enough to realize that it was because the prices at Brevard were unrealistic and not because there wasn't enough demand. We have way too many bland apartment buildings going up. I can't believe that none of the buidlings around the baseball stadium will be condos although I expect that Catalyst will convert. 

[rjp212]

Comps for high end condos in Uptown are pushing the $500/sf range.  The cost to build a tower from scratch isn't cheap, and this isn't a Trademark or Avenue, which while nice aren't "luxury".

Skye Condos:

Averages High 300's-400/sf

230 S Tryon:

$1,399,000/2,476 =565/sf

$3,950,000/4,417 = 894/sf

The Ratcliffe:

$2,700,000/3,489 = 773/sf

 

 

 

[ES Charlotte]

Active comps are not a good representation of true market value. 

[rjp212]

Active comps are not a good representation of true market value. 

Agreed, but it represents what other similar projects are asking as well.  The biggest concern is the amount of condos, in this price range, this project brings to the market.

[DMann]

Anyone else remember the pricing at The VUE Charlotte when they were offered for sale?  My recollection had that pricing at around $525 per sq ft, and they had over 200 contracts written, and that was 10 years ago.  We have tanked and recovered, and this project has far fewer units than The VUE.

 

[Ryan20]

Comps for high end condos in Uptown are pushing the $500/sf range.  The cost to build a tower from scratch isn't cheap, and this isn't a Trademark or Avenue, which while nice aren't "luxury".

Skye Condos:

Averages High 300's-400/sf

230 S Tryon:

$1,399,000/2,476 =565/sf

$3,950,000/4,417 = 894/sf

The Ratcliffe:

$2,700,000/3,489 = 773/sf

 

 

 

you are looking at very high end one of a kind units. Who's going to buy all the small 1 bedrooms that are 525+ per sq ft? The bigger concern is how many people can put down 30% when the project breaks ground and then sit on that for the 2+ years it would take to build this. 

[ES Charlotte]

Check out MLS# 3110269

 

[atlrvr]

I don't think the pricing is bad for the quality of the product, and I actually do think there are plenty enough people that can and would pay that price for this quality of project in Charlotte.  Really, the big question mark for me is the location.  If this was say, replacing the parking deck on Church St next to 5 Church, I think they could easily sell this place out >$500/sf.  The challenge here is, its just sort of dead space, with nothing exceptionally premium within a couple blocks of there....no parks, shops, few restaurants, and lots of surface lots creating a question market what the area may eventually look like.

If I were an investor (or resident), I guess I feel like, if all the surrounding development was high-quality, then this is probably price appropriately, but if it never gets developed, or are lots of mid-priced limited-service hotels, or stick-built apartments, then I would feel like I way over-paid.  Essentially, I have to pay full price for assuming everything goes right...for that type of risk, I should get a discount....now, I guess the railroad owned surface lot across the street could gets a Saks and Bloomies, with a Four Seasons hotel on top, and then you've hit the gold mine...but still....a lot of risk in this location.

All that said, the cynicism surrounding this project is kind of shocking....almost like people are wanting it to fail....seems a bit weird.

[Guest]

What's the update on the Under contract on the MLS?

[ah59396]

I don't think the pricing is bad for the quality of the product, and I actually do think there are plenty enough people that can and would pay that price for this quality of project in Charlotte.  Really, the big question mark for me is the location.  If this was say, replacing the parking deck on Church St next to 5 Church, I think they could easily sell this place out >$500/sf.  The challenge here is, its just sort of dead space, with nothing exceptionally premium within a couple blocks of there....no parks, shops, few restaurants, and lots of surface lots creating a question market what the area may eventually look like.

If I were an investor (or resident), I guess I feel like, if all the surrounding development was high-quality, then this is probably price appropriately, but if it never gets developed, or are lots of mid-priced limited-service hotels, or stick-built apartments, then I would feel like I way over-paid.  Essentially, I have to pay full price for assuming everything goes right...for that type of risk, I should get a discount....now, I guess the railroad owned surface lot across the street could gets a Saks and Bloomies, with a Four Seasons hotel on top, and then you've hit the gold mine...but still....a lot of risk in this location.

All that said, the cynicism surrounding this project is kind of shocking....almost like people are wanting it to fail....seems a bit weird.

I disagree with the cynicism aspect.  I'm sure we all want to be proven wrong and this thing to exceed all of or expectations.  But I also think this board is full of people who have seen this before and witnessed the aftermath.  I think we are just tainted from prior failure.

[ES Charlotte]

My cynicism is a direct result of the lack of thought put into pricing this project... Or even more-so the arrogance of "build it and people will come mentality" regardless of the price point.

We don't need another VUE, we don't need over priced condos that the Charlotte market can't absorb. We don't need a project that has a potentially high failure rate that could in turn dilute the future market for developers looking to build condos in Charlotte. 

We need quality projects that are priced accordingly. It's healthy for buyers, it's healthy for the market.

[15895]

I think people would be more optimistic if it were in 3rd ward

[kermit]

We don't need another VUE, we don't need over priced condos that the Charlotte market can't absorb. We don't need a project that has a potentially high failure rate that could in turn dilute the future market for developers looking to build condos in Charlotte. 

While I don't disagree with your main point I gotta say that I think the VUE would have done just fine if it was completed in the first half of 2008.

[navigator319]

While I don't disagree with your main point I gotta say that I think the VUE would have done just fine if it was completed in the first half of 2008.

I looked at the Vue in May/June 2011 when they were still trying to sell units.  I kick myself today not buying a 2 bed 2 bath unit for $328k. Even with it going to rental after this I still think would have been a great buy.

[tozmervo]

Could you have even gotten bank financing for it, though?

[Ryan20]

I think people would be more optimistic if it were in 3rd ward

I agree, if this were going up where the Mint or Ascent are and was right next to the baseball stadium and park then maybe MAYBE they could support those prices. But for the prices they want, everything has to be perfect about this building including location. Granted the location could be great in 5-10 years but right now, its closet neighbor is the bus station. The financing aspect also blows me away. 30% down once they break ground, who wants to sit on several hundred thousand dollars for the 2 plus years this would take to build. 

[navigator319]

Could you have even gotten bank financing for it, though?

idk.  Waited a year and pulled trigger in Trademark. Was pretty painless process.

[Stitch Jones]

I know this does not have the park right outside the door, but I think it does count for something that the Time Warner Cable Arena and Epicenter are literally a one minute walk away. That and the fact that no other high rise condo has been announced makes this the only game in uptown right now if you are looking for something new.

[atlrvr]

 The financing aspect also blows me away. 30% down once they break ground, who wants to sit on several hundred thousand dollars for the 2 plus years this would take to build. 

I guess if you think its fairly priced today, and real estate on avg appreciates, say 3%, your 30% investment is really growing at 10% annually, with you even having a mortgage.....not sure the terms of the deposit, but if its held in a escrow that can't be touched by the developer (and maybe even earning a small interest rate itself), that's a pretty good place to park money right now.

Now, these condos value could certainly go down or just not appreciate, but you could have also put all that money instead is the stock market last month, and you would have already lost 10%, so, ehhh, i don't think people with this much cash sitting around are going to be sad to see it tied up for 2-3 years if they think what they are buying is fairly priced and are excited about owning it.

[DMann]

It would seem that the 2nd Ward will be substantiall more important as we go through the next 5 years.  This could well grow into a choice location.

[go_vertical]

2nd ward could be today's 3rd ward tomorrow.

[AuLukey]

Let us not forget that new office towers are being built before 1 Brevard.  Those new "high rollers" that want to live uptown aren't all going to want to rent an apartment.

[BuzzCity]

http://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/blog/morning-edition/2015/09/1brevard-boasts-charlottes-most-expensive-condo-on.html

$7 million for the penthouse. I don't understand how they're going to possibly get enough tenants with all these high asking prices.