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The Height Thread....Time to discuss again....


Paramount747

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We've been through this roughly every 6 months.

My take on the Louisville Omni, $139mil in city and state subsidies is being used for one, ONE hotel. I'd take ours over this alleged 400-footer with massive subsidies any day. 

The 1980s were the epitome of grand, massive skyscrapers but look at what happened to some cities that built during that time, like Dallas, with very high vacancy rates that are just now coming down. Granted Dallas, where I'm moving to in October, is a completely different economic beast.

Charlotte was a financial powerhouse, hence their skyline is a majority of office towers. Austin is a tried and true high rise residential city now, Nashville is still entering that specific phase. 

 

I giggle at folks that judge a city on a skyline or make general comments, oh please, you're not here for that and never were, so that doesn't even matter. Look at Miami, they have some interesting buildings but they're overall boxes with balconies and flat roofs.  

 

Quite frankly though, why do we need to continually bring this up because I think most of us on here are quite familiar with your views.

I brought this up because of the fact Sorbo is going to be 341 feet and many here were disappointed. I thought you and I buried the hatchet a long time ago.

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I thought I heard that Tony wanted to make the encore much taller but they wouldn't let him. I recall some years back someone wanted to build a quite tall building on west end. I think where the Barnes and noble is, but weren't allowed to because it was too tall. And I've read on this board that one of the surface parking lots downtown, like 2nd and church? Was proposed for a building but it was shot down because it was too tall.

The Viridian was supposed to be 36 instead of 31, but Tony said the city did not want him to block the L&C letters.

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- City Lights is a PRIME example of where the developer went back to the drawing board and started over- Encore was reduced 3 floors due to the original SoBro zoning (then Bass, Berry, & Sims came along and height restrictions vanished)
- The proposal for the empty lot on Church from 1st to 2nd had a proposal for 25(?) tower and was ADAMANTLY denied because of height and historic site .... only 3 stories please ...
- Viridian was lowered a few floors so the L&C letters were not blocked .... that only partially worked
- American Center on West End was supposed to be a 25 story office tower. Residents complain, and result is two buildings at 11 and 12 stories
- And of course there is a building proposed by Southern Land in Green Hills .....

Just to name a few for you!

I remember the American Center Debacle. The tower at Church and 2nd was supposed to be a 22 story glass tower called Riverview Tower, and Anne Roberts and Lamar Alexander stopped that one.

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I brought this up because of the fact Sorbo is going to be 341 feet and many here were disappointed. I thought you and I buried the hatchet a long time ago.

We did, but that doesn't mean bringing a height discussion up, again, isn't beating a dead horse already. 

I am relocating to Dallas in October and can tell you that with several buildings over 700ft and one over 900ft, the downtown scene is still one that is fairly dead after 5-6pm on most given days, the total opposite of downtown Nashville. All the boom action is still in Uptown where there's a height restriction because of the flight path of close-by Dallas-Love Field, which I believe is capped at roughly 300ft in most areas. 

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I completely understand the frustration of not getting buildings in the 600-800 foot range. I would love that. But those types of buildings are not exactly easy to come by. However, I do think this topic is beating a dead horse. Height has been discussed ad nauseum. We all know your feelings about the lack of taller skyscrapers. Many of us have the same feelings (but obviously to a lesser degree). What bugs me is how often this topic comes up every time a building design gets reduced by a few stories.

Tall skyscrapers have to have either a tall skyscraper client (for office) or have to have the economic demand (residential/hotel). Tony was very ambitious with 505, but I think the reality was it wouldn't get built in the right timeline along with the MDHA garage if he kept it at 60 stories and $220 million. 45/550' is still pretty damn impressive for a residential tower in a market our size.

Bridgestone is another that I think was cut short a little due to timeline. If Bridgestone didn't need that building built by the time their lease expires, perhaps it would have had another 100,000-200,000 sq ft of spec built along with it. 

I think the best prospect for a 600-800 foot building will be a major corporate relocation with a company that wants a big, tall building. It's not going to be built on spec. And I doubt, if Paramount gets built, that it will be residential. Hotel is a wildcard, but with two 400+ room hotels being built/going to be built, I doubt that as well.

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Nash and UT are right. It's an old subject. WW and I discussed this last night. Unless it's an energy company or a bank, tall towers are pretty much out of the question. Hotels have cost considerations, and residential buildings also have cost considerations, and many people do not want to live high up, especially after 9/11.

If Nashville gets a building between 300-400 feet, we are indeed blessed. Most cities our size are not getting anything, and our sister Memphis has not had a tower built downtown since 1985. So yes, we are lucky.

In reality, I would love every surface lot filled with something 15 stories and up. Unfortunately, the battle against surface parking lots will always be with us, especially since Turnery is doing one tower at the moment.

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- City Lights is a PRIME example of where the developer went back to the drawing board and started over- Encore was reduced 3 floors due to the original SoBro zoning (then Bass, Berry, & Sims came along and height restrictions vanished)
- The proposal for the empty lot on Church from 1st to 2nd had a proposal for 25(?) tower and was ADAMANTLY denied because of height and historic site .... only 3 stories please ...
- Viridian was lowered a few floors so the L&C letters were not blocked .... that only partially worked
- American Center on West End was supposed to be a 25 story office tower. Residents complain, and result is two buildings at 11 and 12 stories
- And of course there is a building proposed by Southern Land in Green Hills .....

Just to name a few for you!

...great testimony... -==-

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And I doubt, if Paramount gets built, that it will be residential. Hotel is a wildcard, but with two 400+ room hotels being built/going to be built, I doubt that as well.

So...that makes it sound like Paramount is kinda iffy if he's not going to go residential...unless you're not including rental in residential?

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So...that makes it sound like Paramount is kinda iffy if he's not going to go residential...unless you're not including rental in residential?

Poor wording on my part. 

I'm assuming Paramount gets built, but nothing is sure until it rises.

What I was suggesting is that with Paramount's 45 stories/500 units, it reduces the prospect of a new 600-800 ft residential tower.

 

 

I'm on mobile, which is why my posting sucks.

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  • 2 months later...

I have to bump this thread because I've been thinking a lot about this lately. For the life of me, I can't figure out how Oklahoma City got a 900 footer and Nashville is afraid/refuses to wanna break even 700. Devon Tower is beautiful, but as we all know sticks out like a sore thumb more than any other building in a skyline we've ever seen. Will Nashville ever break out of the slump?

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2 hours ago, Tim29tn said:

I have to bump this thread because I've been thinking a lot about this lately. For the life of me, I can't figure out how Oklahoma City got a 900 footer and Nashville is afraid/refuses to wanna break even 700. Devon Tower is beautiful, but as we all know sticks out like a sore thumb more than any other building in a skyline we've ever seen. Will Nashville ever break out of the slump?

I'm not sure what it will take.  It seems there are some issues with the FAA and going very tall (insurance issues)...and it would probably have to be a large corporation wanting to make a "splash."

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3 hours ago, Tim29tn said:

I have to bump this thread because I've been thinking a lot about this lately. For the life of me, I can't figure out how Oklahoma City got a 900 footer and Nashville is afraid/refuses to wanna break even 700. Devon Tower is beautiful, but as we all know sticks out like a sore thumb more than any other building in a skyline we've ever seen. Will Nashville ever break out of the slump?

Because Devon is an energy company and wanted a trophy piece world HQ tower, thus the final product. Unless it's energy or a financial, you don't get huge, single tenant skyscrapers anymore. 

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Energy companies and banks... they build big and often quite flashy.  I do think the Devon tower is a beautiful building, and beats any bank building I've seen anchoring any Southern city.  Unfortunately, the ground in OKC is so flat and the other towers downtown are all about the same height... so there's not variation in the height (gradation).  It looks stark. 

I can't help thinking that Devon in downtown Nashville would look far better as there are hills and if it were to be placed at the foot of a hill (say, the lot I referenced in front of the Schermerhorn)... it would look awesome, as there would be gradual height increase (with Bridgestone and ATT nearby) and downtown Nashville has quite a bit more towers all around downtown.  So I think Devon would look more "at home" in Nashville.  Perhaps Mayor Barry might strike up a trade... what? in exchange for Devon?  Would you guys give up Low Bro?  What about The Gulch?  How about Germantown?  Salemtown?   Okay... I'd offer Alex Palmer's hole (that is the one on West End)... and I'd consider throwing Alex himself into the deal.  Whatchathink? 

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4 hours ago, Tim29tn said:

I have to bump this thread because I've been thinking a lot about this lately. For the life of me, I can't figure out how Oklahoma City got a 900 footer and Nashville is afraid/refuses to wanna break even 700. Devon Tower is beautiful, but as we all know sticks out like a sore thumb more than any other building in a skyline we've ever seen. Will Nashville ever break out of the slump?

People and companies build what they want to build at the height they deem best for there financial interest. It seems that is very hard for many people on this forum to understand. This is not a sporting event between cities. Especially for the developers. 

Its funny in a way, but it is also very sad in another way. Business people come here and like the city. Conventioneers come here and like the city. Tourists come here and like the city. Almost all of them love the way the buildings in downtown Nashville look. They also like how eclectic the buildings are and that they all differ one another in looks. Downtown was even used as a background in movies like the matrix and the 6th day. Looking at One Nashville, AT & T, Pinnacle, the arena, and the convention center you can see why. 

You have so many people moving here that people call Nashville the "hottest city in the country". Those people would not be coming here if Nashville was as unattractive that many on this forum make it out to be? 

I have to throw some cold water and ask, why is this forum so filled with daily unhappiness, caterwauling, and negativity? Is it a form of therapy? I ask because most people who are happy stay away from things that make them unhappy. From reading the posts on this forum one has no other alternative than to come to the conclusion that a lot of people on this forum are unhappy. So why make yourself distraught, upset, angry, and unhappy with daily and weekly negativity?

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10 minutes ago, Ingram said:

People and companies build what they want to build at the height they deem best for there financial interest. It seems that is very hard for many people on this forum to understand. This is not a sporting event between cities. Especially for the developers. 

Its funny in a way, but it is also very sad in another way. Business people come here and like the city. Conventioneers come here and like the city. Tourists come here and like the city. Almost all of them love the way the buildings in downtown Nashville look. They also like how eclectic the buildings are and that they all differ one another in looks. Downtown was even used as a background in movies like the matrix and the 6th day. Looking at One Nashville, AT & T, Pinnacle, the arena, and the convention center you can see why. 

You have so many people moving here that people call Nashville the "hottest city in the country". Those people would not be coming here if Nashville was as unattractive that many on this forum make it out to be? 

I have to throw some cold water and ask, why is this forum so filled with daily unhappiness, caterwauling, and negativity? Is it a form of therapy? I ask because most people who are happy stay away from things that make them unhappy. From reading the posts on this forum one has no other alternative than to come to the conclusion that a lot of people on this forum are unhappy. So why make yourself distraught, upset, angry, and unhappy with daily and weekly negativity?

It's a board to discuss the built environment.  I would imagine every single person on here loves Nashville.  We all root for this city...and we also root for it to always keep improving on what is already a beautiful city.

Not sure exactly where you are seeing people who are distraught, upset, angry and unhappy.  It's just a discussion.

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7 minutes ago, titanhog said:

Not sure exactly where you are seeing people who are distraught, upset, angry and unhappy.  It's just a discussion.

It's like that text from your significant other that you completely misunderstood and argued about for hours when it was really just taken out of context.

This Key & Peele skit sums it up perfectly:

 

 

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