IN PROGRESS: American Locomotive Works (ALCO)

[Lone Ranger]

^^^ What he said.

Caparco likes the idea of moving to the Port of Providence. It would open his company to the shipping lanes and his workers who like to could still bike to work. But don't mention Quonset Point to him. It's too far for his workers and just the thought upsets him.

Capco has a smaller factory in East Providence, but that's no good either. It's being developed.

Yup, more condos.

Port of Providence. I think I like that.

[millboy]

^^^ What he said.

Port of Providence. I think I like that.

Port of Providence requires some negotiation with Pat Conley, and he's not going to give up that land for cheap since he's also now jumped into the development dance. I didn't think that Capco was going to be displaced by the ALCO plan?

[CtownMikey]

http://www.projo.com/opinion/editorials/co...co.68823a1.html

"The project would cover land equal to 17 football fields."

[jencoleslaw]

maybe a little off topic but wanted to share with the group that i was in O-ville square today (can't wait for THAT traffic pattern to be improved) to go the the post office (to pick up my Red Sox Yankees Tickets!) and was wonderfully surprised to see the new storefront of the Hardware Store on the Square. It is lovely! big new windows, a nice wooden hanging sign in england and in spanish--gleaming product in the window! I almost wept! Excellent work!

[Recchia]

Analyzing the ALCO Project (Opinion)[Projo.com]

Nice summary of the project, as well as the importance of the historic preservation tax credits and TIF.

[foxpointer]

maybe a little off topic but wanted to share with the group that i was in O-ville square today (can't wait for THAT traffic pattern to be improved) to go the the post office (to pick up my Red Sox Yankees Tickets!) and was wonderfully surprised to see the new storefront of the Hardware Store on the Square. It is lovely! big new windows, a nice wooden hanging sign in england and in spanish--gleaming product in the window! I almost wept! Excellent work!

Jen, did you notice that most of the business signs along the Sqaure have since been upgraded, too? Slowly, O-ville Sq. is moving forward.

[KBagley]

There was grant money available (not sure where from) to business owners in Olneyville Square for storefront improvements/restorations. Glad to see the work is getting done.

[Cotuit]

We have a particular concern for the businesses doing manufacturing, such as Capco. The region's economy desperately needs to maintain a manufacturing sector as part of a healthy economic mix. Man cannot live by condos alone . . .

Capco seems unlikely to be moving. It would cost far too much to move them, and their equipment is so large and complex it would really be a nightmare. And there really aren't that many places (in Providence) where they could go. It may seem strange, but for a steel working company, they're amazingly quiet and won't be a bad neighbor for office and residential development.

Meanwhile, we're skeptical about the proposed tax district with which the city would pay for infrastructure improvements in the ALCO project.

The TIF and other non-historic tax credit incentives that ALCO are seeking are still very much under negotiation. The city is not writing blank checks to SBE&R, they are asking them to review their timelines and figure out what can be done and paid for later (i.e. parking garages, if the site is built in phases, can't the garages pay for themselves over time?).

[CtownMikey]

I was curious why some of the businesses that may be displaced cant just move into the new office space when it is created?

[Cotuit]

I was curious why some of the businesses that may be displaced cant just move into the new office space when it is created?

I'm sure some will. But a lot won't be able to afford the renovated space, and there's also the question of what to do for the year+ construction period. If you're in an area that will be rehabbed later and can afford it, you could move from the old to the new. There needs to be some business building programs so that some small firms can increase their profits and be able to afford the new spaces, and in the process expand and hire more people... I'm sure like the airport, there are some small firms in there that are happy to see the development as a chance for them to step up into better spaces, though most are probably struggling to get by as is.

[magoldbe]

I don't see why everyone is so stoked about this project.

Cotuit -- I'm glad you point out the small business that are in these buildings. I am one of them. I run a small record label out of a building that was bought in this SBER deal. I was told that they will invite us back to the building after they've renovated, but it will be a year and the prices they named are about 10 times what I pay now. As it is, I'm looking at other cities. There's no way I can afford to stay in rhode island.

According to the Projo these ALCO condos will be priced starting at $300,000. Considering that the average worker in Providence makes under 30K, none of this housing will be affordable to the vast majority of Rhode Islanders. This wouldn't be so bad if most Rhode Islanders housing needs were accounted for, but they're not. Not even close. Check out housingworks RI for a run-down of the numbers: http://www.housingworksri.org.

I own a small business that is being displaced by the SBER project and the landlord of my apartment is trying to jack up my rent because he thinks that our olneyville neighborhood is going to "take off".

I make under 30K a year and everyone else who I know in Providence does as well. None of us are happy to see what's happening to our city. We are all feeling the pinch of rising rents and none of us can afford to buy.

We keep asking: Where are the people who want to buy $300,000 condos? And who is going to clean them for you after we've all been priced out?

As for the comments about keeping the area feeling "urban" -- have you every *lived* in a city? Olneyville is plenty urban as it is. This SBER project is converting it to some perverse suburbanite fantasy of city life, devoid of poor people, artists, vagabonds, workers, dirt, noise, and traffic. These things will not disappear, they will simply be displaced and compacted. Rising Sun Mills is not urban, nor is the Promenade or the "903". I was at the eagle square shaws the other day and two people from Rising Sun were standing in an aisle looking mortified as children ran amok and mothers yelled in spanish. One turned to the other and admonished: "I told you we should have driven to the Whole Foods." why did they even move here?

I wish you guys should just stay in the suburbs and leave us alone. Nobody wants you in Olneyville except for the Mayor. It is not "hip" to force working people out of their jobs and homes. You are not cool for living in an apartment with exposed brick. You are displacing the very people who clean out your toilets and raise your children while you work in offices. Think about what you are doing, please.

[Recchia]

Starting at $300,000??? I figured these would be a lot less, especially considering some of the Strand condos went for $159,000.

What is affordable for a $30,000 a year salary as far as ownership goes?

[eltron]

Starting at $300,000??? I figured these would be a lot less, especially considering some of the Strand condos went for $159,000.

What is affordable for a $30,000 a year salary as far as ownership goes?

Well, a 577 sf (!) at the Strand is now up to $199,000...

you might be able to afford about $120,000 max, depending on down payment. so start saving...

for a $300k condo, you've gotta be earning north of $75k a year, or almost 400-500% of the median income in Olneyville...

[Recchia]

Well, a 577 sf (!) at the Strand is now up to $199,000...

you might be able to afford about $120,000 max, depending on down payment. so start saving...

for a $300k condo, you've gotta be earning north of $75k a year, or almost 400-500% of the median income in Olneyville...

Looks like I'll be renting for a long time (and in Pawtucket...)

[Lone Ranger]

We keep asking: Where are the people who want to buy $300,000 condos? And who is going to clean them for you after we've all been priced out?

High prices exist in a lot of cities. It's kinda the point. Cities are densely populated. Cities happen when a lot of people either want or need to live in a given, relatively small area. Hence, greater demand. Hence, higher prices.

Manhattan is expensive. Back Bay is expensive. Somebody still cleans the toilets.

You make an impassioned plea, and one that doesn't deserve to go unnoticed here. I'm just not sure I agree with you. However, truth be told, this project doesn't hit me as close to home as it's hitting you, so maybe it's not my place to disagree.

[pete11]

High prices exist in a lot of cities. It's kinda the point. Cities are densely populated. Cities happen when a lot of people either want or need to live in a given, relatively small area. Hence, greater demand. Hence, higher prices.

Manhattan is expensive. Back Bay is expensive. Somebody still cleans the toilets.

I believe densely populated and low paying jobs do not get you to "hence higher prices" (that seems closer to Bombay than Manhattan) Unless there where some multi mil bonuses handed out to Providence Bankers I didn't hear about.

Magoldbe brings up some great points. projects like 110 or Waterplace (financially viable or not) are financed by their developers and private finaciers. These "philanthropist" developers using H.T.C's to build condo's that are so far above median affordability indexes (In Onleyville) is insidous in itself, but displacing actual viable businesses in the process is bordering on criminal. I know everyone thinks I'm a Providence cynic, but please wake up to what's going on

Magoldbe, as for the actual prices of housing in Providence the market will determine true going prices for these units in the next few years. Please hang in there, and best of luck where you end up.

[Garris]

...but displacing actual viable businesses in the process is bordering on criminal. I know everyone thinks I'm a Providence cynic, but please wake up to what's going on...

Sigh... No, it's not criminal, or even close to bordering on it. I hate to see viable businesses displaced as well, but those businesses rent that space, not own it, and the owners have the right to do what they wish. This is why one of the first things very successful businesses do is buy their real estate to better control their own costs and destiny. Again, a shame in this case, but criminal?. Far from it...

Regarding all of the class warfare displaced here, we've gone over it a zillion times before on the boards, and my posts are floating around here somewhere and I'm too tired right now to review all of the salient points again. Major points:

- True diversity includes people of multiple income ranges, not just hip, starving artists et al. In that sense, downtown Providence hasn't been very diverse in a very long time...

- I can't think of one truly great, thriving, modern downtown in any city anywhere in America where urban core living is at the market rate or below for its state. Lets think... Portsmouth, Boston, Manhattan, Chicago, D.C., SF, Minneapolis, etc... All of the cities I can think of with that condition (Detroit, previously New Haven, Newark, Buffalo, etc) are considered "troubled."

- In that sense, should affordable living in the Providence metro be attainable? Yes. Should everyone of every income have the expectation of living on Memorial Drive, on Westminster, or in Capitol Center? No...

- Affordable housing does exist. I just searched homes on RILiving in the Providence metro and found over 100 listing of homes <150,000 dollars. 73 listing for under 120,000 dollars.

- While expectations have been warped a bit in the modern age, people traditionally rented for years before being able to buy a "starter" home. My parents bought their first home at 29 after 8 years of saving every penny. I similarly rented for 8 years before finally buying my place here in Providence after years of saving and, if I hadn't worked a year as a staff doctor between residency and fellowship, I would still be renting into almost my mid-30's. It's just the way things work...

- To magoldbe, your quote:

I wish you guys should just stay in the suburbs and leave us alone. Nobody wants you in Olneyville except for the Mayor. It is not "hip" to force working people out of their jobs and homes. You are not cool for living in an apartment with exposed brick. You are displacing the very people who clean out your toilets and raise your children while you work in offices. Think about what you are doing, please.

This is just as stereotyped and hateful as the comment you mention that the women at the Shaws made.

I'm sorry everyone can't be as authentic, grounded, and deserving of urban living as you obviously must be. If only we could all be as open minded...

That's it... Tired after a long day of work... Going to bed...

- Garris

[pete11]

O.K. so your having trouble seeing the real point because of a tuch of elitism. Magoldbe posts some real concerns on an area becoming unaffordable to him that up until a developer is subsidized to the tune of 100 million taxpayers dollars was affordable to him. Then the board does him some learnin' on why it should be, and take it like a man.

As for affordable housing the market is correcting itself, listings are up 60% (correction 70% hadn't checked listings in a couple of days) in 02906 and closings are plumetting, soon we'll have much more affordable housing, and some on the east side, imagine that. Make sure our currently overbuilt situation gets worse (through taxpayer subsidies) and enjoy that home you saved so hard to buy (hope you bought it cash)

[Lone Ranger]

Magoldbe posts some real concerns on an area becoming unaffordable to him that up until a developer is subsidized to the tune of 100 million taxpayers dollars was affordable to him.

That's the key here. To him. The place is about to become unaffordable to him.

He says, in the very bitter comments at the end of his post -- the comments that Garris addresses -- that nobody in Providence wants this sort of change. Well like it or not, Providence has been directing itself towards exactly this sort of change for over 4 decades. The city has been trying, very consciously, and with a great deal of effort & expenditure, to re-invent itself. And you can't go anywhere downtown these days without seeing evidence of this concerted effort. Which doesn't sound to me like nobody but the Mayor wanting these developers around, but I guess I could be wrong about that.

Meanwhile, in regards to magoldbe's individual situation, I'm sorry for him, but that by itself doesn't mean I think we should throw the brakes on the Providence Renaissance. Providence has been gentler than a lot of major cities in terms of uprooting people to further its ambitions of redevelopment, but eventually it was bound to happen that somebody was going to be in magoldbe's situation. That sound you're hearing is the status quo colliding with visions of change. So call me an elitist then.

And yes, I say it's right to compare us to Boston or Philadelphia or NYC because these are the places we're trying to emulate. And rightfully so. We're accustomed to a humble version of Providence. All we've ever known is the city that fell hard in the great Depression, saw about a third of its population flee to the suburbs, and was overrun by violent crime & corrumption. Today, decades later, we're still to recover from these calamities. But Providence is a city with 2 world-class universities and a wonderfully rich history that includes a stretch of dominance as the greatest industrial city in this country, and maybe the world. As such, Providence has a lot more in common with Boston & Philly & the Big Apple than it does with sleepy burgs like Lansing & Little Rock. Of course, I suppose we could model ourselves after a blighted, poverty-stricken but densely populated place like Mumbia (or Detroit), but that seems to me to be a case of getting what you wish for.

[Garris]

That sound you're hearing is the status quo colliding with visions of change. So call me an elitist then.

I'm actually not having trouble seeing the real point here, and Lone Ranger's quote is 100% accurate. It's no different from East Side people hating change as well...

It's unfortunate, but things do change. Some things for the better for some, some things for the worse for some.

My own personal example is that of my aforementioned parents. The house they saved to build back when they were 28 in a backwater rural area is now considered a highly desirable, upscale NYC bedroom community. My parents house is now worth an unbelievable amount of money, probably 700-1000% more then the land and construction cost them originally. I certainly cannot buy the house I grew up in at market rates now, and, depending upon the career path I take, may never be able to buy/afford that house if I wanted it.

It's sad, but it's change. Meanwhile, in a nearby county, the close of a local IBM office branch several years ago put real estate in that area in a bit of a depression, and houses there are much more affordable than they were 10 years ago.

Things change. They go up and down... That's life. But the bottom line is the more desirable something is, the more expensive, and it's inevitable that as Providence's stock as a place to live increases, so will its costs. I know of very few places that become more attractive to live and prices go down

- Garris

PS: Oh, BTW:

Make sure our currently overbuilt situation gets worse (through taxpayer subsidies) and enjoy that home you saved so hard to buy (hope you bought it cash)

Actually, I bought my condo at a great price and neighboring condos in my development, even in this flat/declining market, are selling comfortably above what I paid. But since I bought it to live in and not as an investment, I really don't care...

But thanks for your genuine concern!

PS2: Oh, for those looking for affordable East Side condos, there are units right in the heart of Wayland Square on Angell being converted now for prices between about $150,000 to $200,000.

[runawayjim]

the issue at hand is the fact that people with a lower income are going to have to accept the fact that there will be some places they just won't be able to afford. i would love to move to the upper east side of manhattan with an apartment overlooking central park. will i ever be able to afford that? probably not. hell, i'd love to be able to afford any one of the new condos going in downtown... but i won't be able to afford those either. it's something you just have to accept.

it follows the laws of supply and demand. right now there's demand for these kinds of places. instead of the artists trying to be squatters thinking that the city wouldn't have them removed from the buildings they occupied, they should have pooled together their income and purchased a building that they could make their own. they wouldn't be forced out at that point because they'd own it. the reason people are being "forced" out is because they don't own the spaces they're using, whether it be for business or residence. that's probably the biggest problem with renting. the owners of the building or house or whatever have every right to sell it and the ones buying it don't have to renew the leases of the occupants.

the city isn't anti anybody or trying to push anyone out for any reason. the city is trying to clean itself up and not be full of neighborhoods that are all dumps.

[pete11]

O.K. I'll try again, the problem is TAXPAYER SUBSIDIES making this area unaffordable. I understand it is your nature to be dismissive, but I do have genuine concerns for the area, and am I highly against using historic tax credits, floating bonds...etc in a highly taxed area to make housing even more unaffordable. The "luxury" condo market is on a precipice not only locally, but nationally. I will say it again people will look back on the turn of the century as the dot com dot condo bust era, and the fact that some of it was fueled by taxpayer dollars, makes me angry. sorry.

[AriPVD]

The irony, and I say this not as my opinion but as fact, is that these neighborhoods became desirable for development (and for gentrification) precisely because artists and others on the cultural frontier chose to live there. While increased real estate values were not their intention, there is a direct cause and effect. Thus, the cultural bohemians have facilitated the Struever's of the world to acquire these properties through the legal, time-honored and dare I say American tradition known as property rights. Believe me, I think we all lose if our most interesting and innovative citizens are pushed out--but there is a true irony to blasting a "problem" that you've had a hand in causing. Acquire your property if you intend on staying! We are a market driven economy. The market will drive you whether you like it or not. I guess that's the moral of the story.

[Cotuit]

instead of the artists trying to be squatters thinking that the city wouldn't have them removed from the buildings they occupied, they should have pooled together their income and purchased a building that they could make their own.

Just to be clear, we aren't actually talking about people squatting here. The people being displaced by ALCO have businesses, have leases, pay rent... There are people out there trying to band together to create more affordable spaces that people can have ownership in. I think pressure needs to be brought to bear against the city and state to ensure that they foster and support these endeavors.

[Garris]

The people being displaced by ALCO have businesses, have leases, pay rent...

Absolutely, but the property owners rights supercede those of their renters, as it should be... But you know what, having all those businesses there still didn't prevent that neigborhood from being a dump...

I think pressure needs to be brought to bear against the city and state to ensure that they foster and support these endeavors.

Absolutely, the more business cooperatives and the more AS220's out there the better.

- Garris