Norfolk Light Rail and Transit

[lil-bear]

I have friends who see LR as a waste because they say it doesn't go anywhere. I tell them that it is a starter line and eventually as expansion progresses it will go to the oceanfront at the convention center and new arena, VBTC, ORF, ODU, NAVSTA Norfolk, and someday towards Greenbrier, Portsmouth, Suffolk, and the peninsula. Also, as these lines are built, they will promote more density along their paths therefore placing more riders closer to the stations.

They just don't want to understand that an extensive rail network doesn't happen over night.

[carolinaboy]

21 hours ago, lil-bear said:

I have friends who see LR as a waste because they say it doesn't go anywhere. I tell them that it is a starter line and eventually as expansion progresses it will go to the oceanfront at the convention center and new arena, VBTC, ORF, ODU, NAVSTA Norfolk, and someday towards Greenbrier, Portsmouth, Suffolk, and the peninsula. Also, as these lines are built, they will promote more density along their paths therefore placing more riders closer to the stations.

They just don't want to understand that an extensive rail network doesn't happen over night.

Some concepts are hard to explain to simpletons. Just kidding! I have friends who are the same way.

[vdogg]

So...umm...Let's talk about this HRT shortfall. This is why we can't have nice things. At a bare minimum, the CEO and CFO need to be fired. We cannot have overages like that and expect the feds to fund an extension of Light Rail. They will not provide money if they think they will be burned again. 

[skylinefan]

I know that a lot of folks are calling for the heads of the CEO and CFO.  The only thing that I can fault them with is not notifying the cities in advance of the potential shortfall.  On the other hand HRT just like DC's metro does not have a dedicated funding stream through a regional tax just like many other cities have.  Each year HRT has to go to 7 different city councils to ask for their payments.  HRT has no way to know how much each city is going to pony up.  The only answer is for the General Assembly to allow Hampton Roads cities to set up a tax to pay for mass transit.  The current model is just not working.   

[urbanlife]

12 hours ago, skylinefan said:

I know that a lot of folks are calling for the heads of the CEO and CFO.  The only thing that I can fault them with is not notifying the cities in advance of the potential shortfall.  On the other hand HRT just like DC's metro does not have a dedicated funding stream through a regional tax just like many other cities have.  Each year HRT has to go to 7 different city councils to ask for their payments.  HRT has no way to know how much each city is going to pony up.  The only answer is for the General Assembly to allow Hampton Roads cities to set up a tax to pay for mass transit.  The current model is just not working.   

I kind of think transit in Hampton Roads needs to be reformed. The responsibility and funding should be given back to the cities. That way if cities wish to work together for a transit system, it makes it much easier and can exclude those cities that don't want to work with transit. It might result in having a few different transit departments that operate independently in some cities, but it would allow some areas to sink or swim without having those cities drag the whole metro down.

[Arctic_Tern]

9 hours ago, urbanlife said:

I kind of think transit in Hampton Roads needs to be reformed. The responsibility and funding should be given back to the cities. That way if cities wish to work together for a transit system, it makes it much easier and can exclude those cities that don't want to work with transit. It might result in having a few different transit departments that operate independently in some cities, but it would allow some areas to sink or swim without having those cities drag the whole metro down.

That would really hurt regional transit in my opinion. You'd have cities playing hot potato, trying as hard as they can to go as little into other cities as possible. This of course promotes more stagnation and division between the cities and would basically eliminate any possibility of light rail building past the boundary of Norfolk.

[carolinaboy]

Maybe we should all just come to the conclusion that most likely light rail will only be in Norfolk for the forseeable future. That's OK as long as Norfolk expands it within their borders to provide service to it's areas like the naval base, ODU, airport, downtown, military circle area, etc. I believe Norfolk light rail can and will expand in small segments. I could see light rail eventually going into parts of Chesapeake. Beyond that, I don't see it happening anywhere else. The logistics of getting it to Portsmouth are prohibitive. Virginia Beach just doesn't want it.

 

If I were Norfolk, I'd be pursuing every dollar available for light rail and expand to the base.

 

Norfolk has proven it has the desire and moxy to improve itself and evolve into a real urban city. Everyone else is just content to be urban sprawl.

 

[BFG]

Honestly, that might not be a bad thing. It would help establish Norfolk as the true urban core. I hope we hear more about the expansion line in the next couple of years, while momentum is hot. 

[urbanvb]

Norfolk will pay a firm for a year long study extending light rail to the western part of the city. 

http://pilotonline.com/news/local/transportation/the-first-step-on-norfolk-s-decade-long-light-rail/article_a8959ac4-94a0-5f92-88eb-e5c4e3e2de9d.html

 

[carolinaboy]

I'll take this study as a positive sign. Maybe it will nail down a route and a cost (estimate) so that it can move forward. I have no doubt Norfolk will extend the system, despite the naysayers and doom-and-gloom folks.

I'll take an extension in a decade or less over no extension at all.

Too bad Norfolk has to do this by itself though.

[BFG]

10 years? I thought they were planning on the next route being done around 2021? Or am I thinking of another city?

[lammius]

I thought this study was started in 2015??

If they haven't even selected the alignment yet, it absolutely will be ten years.  The starter line was easy, as most of it was existing ROW, and only downtown was hard.  The Westside Connection (please let them call it that) will be much more difficult.  Most, if not all, of it will be in-street.  There's a lot of traffic impact analysis that has to happen, environmental, community engagement, demonstrating to residents that the catenary wire won't give the kids cancer, etc. 

[jeffconn]

On 3/8/2017 at 9:01 PM, urbanlife said:

I kind of think transit in Hampton Roads needs to be reformed. The responsibility and funding should be given back to the cities. That way if cities wish to work together for a transit system, it makes it much easier and can exclude those cities that don't want to work with transit. It might result in having a few different transit departments that operate independently in some cities, but it would allow some areas to sink or swim without having those cities drag the whole metro down.

This would be a complete and total disaster. As it now stands we have HRT, and two smaller transit companies in Williamsburg and Suffolk. Imagine 10 different companies, each on different schedules with different fares, different times being active (Suffolk doesn't have service on Sundays or on ANY holidays, for example) and having to pay full price every time you switch buses. Also, Portsmouth, being the poorest city in HR, would have the worst service even though they arguably need it the most.

[urbanlife]

2 hours ago, jeffconn said:

This would be a complete and total disaster. As it now stands we have HRT, and two smaller transit companies in Williamsburg and Suffolk. Imagine 10 different companies, each on different schedules with different fares, different times being active (Suffolk doesn't have service on Sundays or on ANY holidays, for example) and having to pay full price every time you switch buses. Also, Portsmouth, being the poorest city in HR, would have the worst service even though they arguably need it the most.

It might be a disaster for regional transit as a whole, but I question how useful it is now having transit dollars spread thin over an entire metro. It would make more sense for cities that want to take part in having a transit system to invest in their own systems and join with the cities that wish to work with each other. From when I use to live in VB, I remember transit being basically useless, but HRT still had buses running through the city, wasting transit money on something being underused and underfunded. Having cities decide their own transit would mean that Norfolk could invest in its own system and that it could join with other cities that also want to be pro-transit, and leave behind those cities that wish to continue to be anti-transit (Virginia Beach.) 

This same concept should also go for light rail, Norfolk should be looking at Norfolk first, and try to better connect light rail throughout its city and those cities that wish to also join in, and leave behind those cities that with to be anti-rail.

[Virginia City]

That suggestion is just going to divide the region even more then it already is. With the way this area is already set up, no city can really do anything on its own. Without HRT, for all its faults, Norfolk would have never been able to go through with light rail.  

[skylinefan]

Most likely the better route for Light Rail would be down Military Highway to Naval Station Norfolk with stops at Military Circle, Maybe Northampton, Airport etc.  There seems to be ample room along Military Highway for such an alignment.  

[urbanlife]

16 hours ago, Virginia City said:

That suggestion is just going to divide the region even more then it already is. With the way this area is already set up, no city can really do anything on its own. Without HRT, for all its faults, Norfolk would have never been able to go through with light rail.  

The current system is what holds the area back, it doesn't have the funds to provide good transit to the whole region, nor does every city in the metro wish to have areas that are good for transit, which that hurts commuters more and makes people even more dependent on the car. It would make more sense for Norfolk to focus on Norfolk when it comes to transit, and then work with any of the surrounding cities that wish to work with Norfolk. Not having Norfolk focus on being the center of the metro is what has hurt Norfolk over the years.

[urbanlife]

51 minutes ago, NFKjeff said:

Norfolk, Virginia Beach, and Newport News form a joint task force to create reply to HRT overruns, and come up with solutions. This is how regions should work together. IMO it is far better for area cities to work together in common interest than to throw up their arms and walk away from each other towards isolation.

https://www.google.com/amp/pilotonline.com/news/local/transportation/getting-around/norfolk-virginia-beach-and-newport-news-band-together-on-taskforce/article_b8c1117f-dc96-5eb5-a0b6-4f5a921f4994.amp.html

That is good too, as long as all cities want to commit, based on VB shooting down light rail though really makes me question how much they are willing to commit to HRT and its service it provides to the region. I would think it would make more sense for Norfolk to have a strong transit system than the entire metro having a subpar transit system.

[Norva757]

New study coming for light rail expansion to NOB http://pilotonline.com/news/local/transportation/hrt-hosting-norfolk-light-rail-extension-meeting-tuesday-at-slover/article_d5fb6e54-5f00-588b-82e4-ea19cf3caa24.html

[carolinaboy]

3 hours ago, Norva757 said:

New study coming for light rail expansion to NOB http://pilotonline.com/news/local/transportation/hrt-hosting-norfolk-light-rail-extension-meeting-tuesday-at-slover/article_d5fb6e54-5f00-588b-82e4-ea19cf3caa24.html

Good step in the right direction (away from Virginia Beach that is)

[brikkman]

At this stage, focus should definitely be the route from the navel base through around/near odu. Then up military hwy to the airport or up through to Norview. I would also consider connecting west at the Hilton on military hwy on those old abandon tracks. Only makes sense now if its going to be in Norfolk only. I think Chesapeake will be the first to get on an extension, its easier to pull of then to portsmouth.

[Virginia City]

It would have been nice if they had put in a train tunnel when they were redoing the Midtown tunnel.

[BFG]

I know I've seen the proposals, but I honestly can't think of a logical route through Ghent that wouldn't throw everything out of whack. To me, the only way it works with Hampton Blvd. is if it's an elevated line, but then you have the issue of the 21st St. underpass.

It's a very half-baked idea, but looking at the map, I wonder if it could somehow loop through Chelsea/West Ghent, across the Norfolk Southern railyard and somehow connecting to Powhatan Ave., through ODU, and down Hampton Blvd. to NOB?

[Norva757]

11 hours ago, BFG said:

I know I've seen the proposals, but I honestly can't think of a logical route through Ghent that wouldn't throw everything out of whack. To me, the only way it works with Hampton Blvd. is if it's an elevated line, but then you have the issue of the 21st St. underpass.

It's a very half-baked idea, but looking at the map, I wonder if it could somehow loop through Chelsea/West Ghent, across the Norfolk Southern railyard and somehow connecting to Powhatan Ave., through ODU, and down Hampton Blvd. to NOB?

I always thought that they would be forced to go elevated if they decide to go that route. They might have to chose another route that would cause so many problems

[Norfolk757Kid]

I went to the HRT meeting at Slover about the Westside extension. Impressions I got were that any extension is around a decade away maybe more, but the HRT members seemed reservedly optimistic.

The less intrusive the route the better, which is why any route down Granby or through Park Place is going to be very hard to do. HRT seems to realize also that light rail or a street car system through Park Place and some of the Westside neighborhoods would probably rapidly increase gentrification of those areas.

An old right of way for a highway that goes behind West Ghent and skirts the coal fields was brought up as kind of a hail mary route...I'm fine with any route that connects ODU, Constant Center, Foreman Field to the rest of the system though.