[KRC]

jeepcj85, on Nov 14 2005, 08:02 PM, said:

Its true it was a depressed area, but the Salem Sq clearing was concieved in the late 50s and cleared in the early 60s. Crime and slums at that point were not anything like Main and Chandler areas today. The point is though, that if the buildings, even some of them were still there, and the area revitalized, a huge area of walkable urban landscape would exist.

Providence resisted the urge to tear down vacant marginal area near downtown. For awhile the area was an eyesore, but as times got better, the buildings were renovated, and the area has retained the original urban fabric. Not to say that in Worcester it couldnt have gone the other way, breeding crime.

I will say though, my parents, who were middle class catholic school students, took the bus downtown with their friends everyday to hang out in the late 50s and early 60s. The area was very safe at that time.

That does seem to be the consensus on downtown Worcester during that timeframe. When I moved to downtown Worcester in 1989 the last vestiges of what used to be downtown were just dying out. During the depression of the early 1990's the business community in downtown Worcester was devistated and never recovered to the level where it was. Most economic "boom" activity moved to other locations within the city, like the biotech park. Over time the use for downtown declined and Worcester never figured out how to make a transition. Getting rid of Worcester Center is the BEST thing the city could do for itself. The Centrum, Convention Center and Med City all were great attempts; however, with Worcester Center smack in the middle breaking up the urban fabric of the city revitalization was an uphill battle.

[cloudship]

It went downhill long before that - in the early 80's I used to go down there - and it was pretty much a hang-out then. If anything I think it kind of improved a bit, since the business office rentals picked up a little more.

I still don't think there will be any reason for people to want to go downtown. And that is the big stumbling block - they need a reason or desire to go there. And City Square really isn't providing that.

[oliver]

cloudship, on Nov 14 2005, 10:23 PM, said:

I still don't think there will be any reason for people to want to go downtown. And that is the big stumbling block - they need a reason or desire to go there. And City Square really isn't providing that.

Cloudship, don’t be such a pessimist, you almost sound like the Worcester folks. You are right, the citysquare might not become a magnet to bring people to visit downtown, but it will establish office, upscale housing and retail. That means people actually working and living downtown. Combine this with the condo developments around Union Station / Canal district and the pharmaceutical students downtown – all short working distance to citysquare - and you might achieve a critical mass.
It might never be a major destination to visit, but a downtown where people actually live and work would be a desirable change.

This post has been edited by oliver: 15 November 2005 - 12:15 PM

[virgo20]

oliver, on Nov 15 2005, 01:14 PM, said:

Cloudship, don’t be such a pessimist, you almost sound like the Worcester folks. You are right, the citysquare might not become a magnet to bring people to visit downtown, but it will establish office, upscale housing and retail. That means people actually working and living downtown. Combine this with the condo developments around Union Station / Canal district and the pharmaceutical students downtown – all short working distance to citysquare - and you might achieve a critical mass.
It might never be a major destination to visit, but a downtown where people actually live and work would be a desirable change.

I agree Oliver...This is a great development...If only they could turn back the hands of time and get rid of that stupid sprawling hospital complex, things would be fine.....with that said, after City Square,...there are still many parking lots , car dealerships, and Railroad space that could use density in the middle of downtown...That's the future of downtown Worcester.

[Cotuit]

I don't think Worcester will ever be a hot regional destination. But I see no reason why it can't attract a lot of residents to it's downtown core and attract businesses and entertainment that cater to those residents. Look at an area like Hoboken, NJ. It's not an area that people from around greater New York flock to as a destination. But it is a very happening and exciting place to live because of it's proximity to New York. Worcester can cash in on it's commuter rail connection to Boston, it's urban environment, and it's affordability in comparison to Boston and become a very livable urban enclave.

[virgo20]

Cotuit, on Nov 15 2005, 04:02 PM, said:

I don't think Worcester will ever be a hot regional destination. But I see no reason why it can't attract a lot of residents to it's downtown core and attract businesses and entertainment that cater to those residents. Look at an area like Hoboken, NJ. It's not an area that people from around greater New York flock to as a destination. But it is a very happening and exciting place to live because of it's proximity to New York. Worcester can cash in on it's commuter rail connection to Boston, it's urban environment, and it's affordability in comparison to Boston and become a very livable urban enclave.

Agreed.....

[cloudship]

Quote

I don't think Worcester will ever be a hot regional destination.

That's where I disagree. I think Worcester is pretty unique - the location is perfect (really central location), it's got colleges galore, fairly affluent but room to grow, plenty of space to develop, and an educated workforce.

The city is stuck trying the same old formula - they've tried the al the different building combinations, but nthing sticks for any length of time, because they are not getting to the root cause - Worcester is boring and dirty. What they really need to do is to make it an exciting fun place, a place to explore. I am not as concerned with Main St. as I am with other areas, because I don't think it is really that broken. It's perfectly functional, it just lacks the luster. That will come as other things brighten up around it.

I think they need ot take the canal district, save the good buildings and wipe out the rest, and rebuild it as an old city with windy streets. Sure a little touristy, but it will start bringing in character. They need better transportation for the colleges to circulate the students. Get some art and events happening - and not just the Summer Nationals, but unique stuff that will bring people into the city to wander around the streets and check out the restaurants. Fix up places like pleasant st. And encourage some interesting stores instead of the usual clothing stores.

I think Worcester has a ton of potential, but it needs to head in a different direction.

[Cotuit]

When I said it wouldn't become a regional destination, I was thinking of New England as the region, i.e. I don't really think people will ever set out from the Cape or Portland, ME and head to Worcester. In the local region of Worcester County, and western Mass. in general, I can see it becoming a destination.

If the Canal District plan actually happens... well then, maybe we'll see it as a destination for New Englanders, the way places like Portland and Newport are.

[oliver]

cloudship, on Nov 16 2005, 08:28 PM, said:

Fix up places like pleasant st. And encourage some interesting stores instead of

I looked at a new condo development yesterday on pleasant street: http://www.whittierplace.net/
It is a beautiful 1800's building in the spanish section of Pleasant street. The developer is converting it into stylish luxury condos. The place is gorgeous. Even so the official sales haven't even started yet, 6 out of the 16 available units are already sold. I walked around the area for a while, its shady, but interesting, a bunch of Spanish stores and little restaurant in walking distance. The building was empty for a long time and is now being totally remodeled (even extended on one side). This is exactly the kind of development that Worcester needs.

[oliver]

Update about Citysquare:

”In an unusual procedural move, the state Legislature has held approval of the financing for Worcester’s $563 million CitySquare redevelopment project until the city and project developer Berkeley Investments come to terms over a critical development agreement covering the entire project... House and Senat voted for final enactment of the bill ...But after the Senate voted final approval, Mr. Augustus returned to the Senate to ask “no action” be recorded on the bill, holding it up until an enactment vote can be repeated at another time...” Worcester T&G, 11/19/05

The approval is needed for the city to borrow its share of the project ($ 64 million). Nothing will happen, until the approval passes. The bill was held, because the city and Berkeley did not agree on some developing terms and no development agreement has been signed yet.

I wonder what would happen if no agreement could be reached. There sits a huge, empty ghost mall without one tenant in the middle of downtown… One might think that the city would do everything to get this deal, considering that it only has to contribute 11% of the total investment...

[cloudship]

I was just down there this afternoon. It is spooky - plastic covers a few stores, hollow and empty. You can feel how bad of a shape the building is in. I don't think they have the option of leaving it standing - I had thought at one point it would be nice if they moved the Quinsigamond Campus there completely, but that building just needs to be raised.

A lot of the stores still have fixtures in them - I am wondering if they are going to be selling those or what. I think they have a lot of demo work on the inside to do first, so I doubt you will see anything on the outside for some time.

[Germaine]

Is Worcester benefiting from it's commuter rail connection to Boston?

[cloudship]

To a limited extent. I used to take it occasionally. The real problem is that it is so useless - no parking, you have a ton of stops and it takes forever. The times are terrible, and the trains are packed from Framingham in. The idea is great, but the implementation is terrible.

I think it is much more benefitial for those communities along 495. They get more out of it.

[jeepcj85]

most of those points are valid, however, Ive never had any trouble finding a parking spot to take the train. There is a parking lot opposite the station and the former largest parking garage in the world (when it was built) on the other side across Worc Ctr Blvd. Also they are building a new attached parking garage in the rear of the station with street level retail.

The trains ARE packed from Framingham in but you got on in Worcester and have a seat so who cares?!!!? Seriously though, more space is needed on rush hr trains.

The times are terrible for leisure travelers but usually workable for commuters. The number of round trips however will be doubled in the next few years once a deal or sale is worked out with CSX, who owns the tracks between Worcester and Framingham. Also, some of those increased trains would be express. The CSX ownership issue is the reason why half of the trains currently terminate in Framingham.

Ridership is currently about 1,500 riders daily out of Worcester and 20,000 on the line.

If trains ran more often and later at night (1140 to Boston and 1125 to Worc on wkdys; 1235 to Boston and 1100 to Worcester on wknds) I would certainly take the train more often. The only reason I dont use the train more often is because sometimes I would have to severely alter my travel times to take the train.

This post has been edited by jeepcj85: 30 November 2005 - 12:22 PM

[cloudship]

The problem with the Commons Outlet Garage is the price - who is going to pay 5 bucks to park, and 11 for the train? I really think one thing that did hurt the city is the company that owns that garage. They think they are sitting on a gold mine and dirve people away, so everyone turns to these open lot parking. If the garage was better priced I bet you could get some infill on those lots.

What is the story with CTX? I can't imagine that they would just willing give up that line. I oftne think they should just swallow hard and build a line along the pike. It is the route that is pretty much the most direct.

I havn't taken the train in years - I don't work in the city any more. I used to try and take it, but my shcedule was not consistent enough that I knew I would be able to catch a ride home. Their express should not stop in Framingham - there should be one line from framingham, one that serves the stations further out.

[jeepcj85]

The Citysquare garage is (or was) available to MBTA commuters for $30 for a monthly pass. Only a good option for regular commuters. CSX is not willing to give up the tracks, it was proposed that the MBTA either buy the tracks or build parallel tracks for trains to stage as others pass. I wish they would completely replace the line with an electric higher speed train with no grade crossings so the trip could be made in 45 mins, but thats just a dream right now.

[Recchia]

I took the train from (is it Grafton?) once, the stop right after Worcester (we were comin from Albany and I didn't wanna Amtrak it into Boston nor drive all the way there and pay to park in the city), and I can agree that it takes forever! I think it was almost an hour and fifteen minutes. Some express trains between the cities would be nice.

[jeepcj85]

Its about 1:15 from Worcester to Boston on the train. Driving is 50 mins to the city, plus travel within the city, and then parking. Probably about 1:00+. Express trains would be nice at commute times. A below grade crossing is really needed in Framingham to speed things up. Currently the train crawls to the stop downtown, and then crawls across 2 busy streets, tying up traffic in the meantime. If all grade crossings were eliminated, especially Framingham, it would be a HUGE HELP.

[cloudship]

You must not have timed that during commute hours. Driving in, usually at speeds of aout 35-40 mph at best, can take almost two hours door to door.

The real hangups on the train, at least from what I experienced, were the time it took to run around Lake Quinsigamond, the slow stretch just before you reached Framingham and once inside the city, and the time spent making all those stops.

[jeepcj85]

I was thinking that a signal on the platforms at lesser used stations would be useful. A would be rider would have to push a button to alert the train to stop at non peak hrs. This would eliminate unnecessary stops and slow downs.