East Beltline Developments

[GR8scott]

yeah I agree with some of the things above but an example that I know is West Palm Beach Fla. (not plam beach). My grandparents live down there and just a couple years ago the DT was desolate but it is under a huge transformation right now. There was no shopping there until a big project called city place tore out about 4 square blocks and reaplced with shops, put townhoses above and behind them and in the center was a Macy's and a Muvico and also a center pavillion area where the shops are further back and there is a fountain and a small stage. It is very cool and looks to be very sucessful and I think that GR could support something like that because it will draw ppl to come into DT. The problem is location because we dont have abanded blocks and monroe center is not set up to be like that. The one thing I could see is the government center being outdated and moving elsewhere and the current city hall/fed building/5/3building being replaced with an outdoor shopping center/hotel/housing. that would be cool

[Prankster]

Going with Gr8scott's way of thinking, the WAM sight is our best forseeable option to obtain this. The problem with that, though, is Jack Buchanon is strictly a locally known developer that is most associated with the failed City Hall/Marriott failure. He would need to team up with a nationally known developer like Urban Retail Properties, The Rouse Company or Cordish Company. We need to change the paradigm of western Michigan from thinking that there isn't any place to shop downtown. We changed the thinking by putting some of our most successful restaurants and nightclubs downtown, but we need to move that on to retail.

[GRDadof3]

Wow, that sounds like a solid plan Prankster! Are you a rocket scientist?

Edited November 8, 2005 by GRDadof3

[acarlton]

While the space downtown is certainly beginning to diminish. The bigger issue with urban retail is getting the retail itself to agree to come downtown (as opposed to Rivertown, 28th, Knapp and now "the Village"). They really need to see a catalyst to view the area as a viable entrepeneural opportunity and a huge flux in condos is not going to cut it.

Unfortunately, if "the Village" is a go then all those stores will never agree to come downtown (until their lease is up) because of the proxmity. We then have a tougher challenge of finding alternatives.

If I were to do a shopping district, I would put it behind the vanAndel arena along 131 between Oakes and Cherry. This way it has a presence from the highway, link to the GR skyway, connection to Ionia corridor and the monroe center corridor. I would use existing buildings and connect them with indoor/outdoor courtyards.

All underground parking too with a trolley or streetcar to bring folks to other parts of the city.

[GRDadof3]

The Village only has 50 tenants, and most of which are already in this area. Why would having them at this location diminish the possiblity of getting them downtown any more than at Woodland or Rivertown? Unless it's having additional locations ANYWHERE in the metro lessens the chances. Here's another thing to think about for downtown developers. There's a good chance we'll see ANOTHER development of this sort in Alpine Township in the next few years. The longer people wait, the harder it will be.

South of the Arena is a great location too, but I was curious what existing buildings would be part of your development anne? Most of Ionia is pretty much filled up. Maybe the buildings along Grandville (old USXChange, 100 Grandville and the Anheuser Building) might work better, and build a multi-story shopping complex behind them on the surface lot and maybe another behind 100 Grandville.

Now that would be some great highway exposure, and easy connectivity to the skywalk system

And one last thought, I believe that you only have to convince one party to move downtown, and that is one of the national downtown retail developers that Prankster mentioned. Once you get them on board, they will do everything they can to fill the place with their current client base. That's exactly what Kevin did with the Village. Aikens is going to fill the place, not BDR.

Edited November 8, 2005 by GRDadof3

[GaryP]

South of the Arena is a great location too, but I was curious what existing buildings would be part of your development anne? Most of Ionia is pretty much filled up. Maybe the buildings along Grandville (old USXChange, 100 Grandville and the Anheuser Building) might work better, and build a multi-story shopping complex behind them on the surface lot and maybe another behind 100 Grandville.

Now that would be some great highway exposure, and easy connectivity to the skywalk system

I think that would be best case scenario. Something similar to the Nordstrom mall on Michigan ave would fit great into those surface lots along Oakes next to the highway. It about 4 stories and full of retailers we dont have in GR.

I think the biggest problem is parking. Shoppers expect free parking in abundance, but if you were to just give it away downtown there would be plenty of people ready to take advantage.

[GRDadof3]

That's the crux. You would almost HAVE to add a parking ramp as part of the development, and then that lessens the chance of people venturing outside the development to experience other things downtown. The Village is expecting 8000 shoppers/day. I don't know what that translates into for parking spaces needed, but probably at least a 1000 car ramp for this and to replace the lost surface lots? In addition, I think you would have several different classes of shoppers:

Some suburbanites coming downtown to the "mall" and maybe doing other things downtown, but not likely to venture out too far (unless they included an arena event with their experience)

Conventioneers and visitors that would walk to the mall from the hotels would be more likely to do other things along the way

The biggest bonus would be the increased interest in residential downtown, who would almost certainly spend more time downtown than just at the mall, and would be the biggest catalyst for spinoff retail

Edited November 8, 2005 by GRDadof3

[torgo]

That's the crux. You would almost HAVE to add a parking ramp as part of the development, and then that lessens the chance of people venturing outside the development to experience other things downtown. The Village is expecting 8000 shoppers/day. I don't know what that translates into for parking spaces needed, but probably at least a 1000 car ramp for this and to replace the lost surface lots? In addition, I think you would have several different classes of shoppers:

Some suburbanites coming downtown to the "mall" and maybe doing other things downtown, but not likely to venture out too far (unless they included an arena event with their experience)

Conventioneers and visitors that would walk to the mall from the hotels would be more likely to do other things along the way

The biggest bonus would be the increased interest in residential downtown, who would almost certainly spend more time downtown than just at the mall, and would be the biggest catalyst for spinoff retail

Yah, its kind of a catch-22. It would be great to infill all that parking with retail, but then you gotta accompany all that retail with parking, plus what you filled in, so you end op with more parking than what you started with!

BTW, did you know that the City of Portland managed to add 30,000 jobs downtown while adding zero parking spaces? A lot of it was thanks to diversified mass transit options, including light rail and the like.

[PBJ]

Yah, its kind of a catch-22. It would be great to infill all that parking with retail, but then you gotta accompany all that retail with parking, plus what you filled in, so you end op with more parking than what you started with!

BTW, did you know that the City of Portland managed to add 30,000 jobs downtown while adding zero parking spaces? A lot of it was thanks to diversified mass transit options, including light rail and the like.

If nobody minds, i'm starting a new thread, since this is trailing off the topic at hand of "The village" but I think it's a good discussion... Brb with a new thread

[GR_Urbanist]

The biggest bonus would be the increased interest in residential downtown, who would almost certainly spend more time downtown than just at the mall, and would be the biggest catalyst for spinoff retail

Thats only if the people in that housing actually will want to "live" downtown. That is to say that people who move downtown into buildings that have private or covered parking grages are going to look out their window on January 15 and will opt to walk to their nearby car and drive out to Rivertown crossing or they will look at the walk from, for example, American Seating Park or Riverhouse or N. Monroe and Iwall on Bond in the hot summer and decided that that 1/4 or 1 mile walk isnt worth the sweat and will jump at A/C comfort and a short trip to 28th street. It may seem a bit outlandish to think that, but we now have how many people living in the DT area and we still have an almost empty DT after 6:30pm? Retailers are looking at this and no one is going to take the risk of putting a store in the city and end up losing there shirts because the residental population DT cant make the walk to their shop.

Also, many of the people moving DT are by and large from the suburbs and will most likely will keep going back to shop where their used to. At this point living downtown is more of a status symbol or fashion statement. It looks cool and is the trendy thing. That will be the case until some retail outlet will takes the leap downtown, we get more of a mix of housing and our dependance on the horseless carraige drops.

Yikes! I hope this made any sense.

[PBJ]

Yikes! I hope this made any sense.

Clear as day.. Chicken and Egg problem, can't have one with out the other, but what comes first, the people then the retailers, or the retailers then the people..

[GRDadof3]

Oh, I'm not suggesting that the current downtown population alone can support such a venture. No way. Even though there are many more people living in the downtown vicinity, there are still relatively few. Basically Plaza Towers, Cityview, some condos upstairs along Monroe Center, Forslund, The Globe, some along Division, along Monroe North and where else? The great majority of new ones are under construction. And I would say there needs to be at least 1000 or more units COMPLETED before you'll really feel a difference downtown.

And downtown residents may go to the burbs, or they may choose to drive the few blocks to go to a downtown district. All the cities mentioned that have a downtown retail center ALSO have suburban shopping malls too, and probably more than we have. Indianapolis alone has probably half a dozen malls, don't they?

[eagle]

Great discussion. I, too, would much rather see more retail downtown that another suburban development. It's just too hard for many business owners to justify staying, or moving downtown when all the customers are flocking to the "malls."

We're good friends with the owner of a business that has been an icon on monroe mall for over 120 years. It's an amazing store, in a beautiful building, with many of the same furnishings that the store originally opened with. Despite my pleadings they are very seriously considering moving out toward Knapp and the Beltline. While I (and those of you on this forum) see the new development downtown and can picture a busy retail center in a few years once more people move downtown, it's not seen by other people. Perception is reality and most consumers just don't think about driving downtown, paying for parking, and having to deal with the elements when they can drive to the mall, spend time indoors and get anything they need.

While the owners understand that I'd much rather shop at their store downtown thay raise a good questions. While I'd "rather" shop there how many time have I "acatually" purchased something there in the last year? The truth is, I haven't. It's great to have a cool store, in a cool location, but they have to go where the customers are. The facts are that they're getting their butts kicked by the suburban chains. Couple this with the fact that he's been held up by armed robbers multiple times in the last couple of years and has to deal with all the homeless "scaring" his customer away and the deals just about been sealed. I just wish they could hold on for another 5 years.

How do we convince the average, run of the mill consumer, that they need to support locally owned businesses and that the success of their downtown is important to the success of the whole area?

[GRDadof3]

How do we convince the average, run of the mill consumer, that they need to support locally owned businesses and that the success of their downtown is important to the success of the whole area?

I'm afraid you won't. People might support downtown and approve millages for schools, or a bond issue for a museum, or arena, or something like that, but to get people to change their "already busy schedules" to go downtown to shop at a locally owned shoe store that's similar to one in the burbs Ain't gonna happen. And you can get mad as hell at these narrow-minded thinkers, but how many times have you (not necessarily you eagle) shopped locally vs. nationally lately. Even locally owned suburban stores are a dying breed.

Again, to get people to go downtown, you have to have something they cannot get elsewhere. It's called "competing", "establishing a niche", "targeting demographics", and a host of other "must-do's" in business to survive. A downtown Grand Rapids full of small mom and pop stores offering the same old same old = buh bye. They're barely surviving in seemingly vibrant suburban downtowns like Ada or Rockford. A downtown retail complex with national niche retailers and a high-end anchor store and theater??? Now you're heading in the right direction.

Plus, don't forget that online retailing is causing huge changes in the national retail world as it is. I'll wait for someone to convince me I'm wrong

Boy, I'm such a "stick in the mud".

[Prankster]

People need to get over the mindset that chain retailers are evil and must not be allowed into downtown. These are the businesses that attract people's attention. You bring in a number of these types of establishments downtown, and fill in the remaining spacese with locally owned establishments that can feed off the foot traffic generated by the nationals.

I do agree that the chains need to be unique to the area, though. People aren't going to go through the trouble of driving downtown and finding a parking spot just to visit a Applebee's, Radio Shack or Hallmark store.

[MJLO]

why is there not an urban outfitters in Grand Rapids?

[Prankster]

why is there not an urban outfitters in Grand Rapids?

It depends on their demographic requirements for locating a store. Also, they could be concentrating on other markets, and haven't started concentrating on GR yet.

[mrknowitall]

upscale? whats with all the mall outlet stores? abercrombie is upscale? only in northern michigan.

jesus. to get a nice pair of jeans and shirt i still have to drive 2hrs. gr will never change...

i'll be waiting in line next to a guy with a hunter orange snow suit on, picking up ice fishing supplies....

Edited November 11, 2005 by mrknowitall

[twoshort]

upscale? whats with all the mall outlet stores? abercrombie is upscale? only in northern michigan.

jesus. to get a nice pair of jeans and shirt i still have to drive 2hrs. gr will never change...

i'll be waiting in line next to a guy with a hunter orange snow suit on, picking up ice fishing supplies....

someone piss in your cereal?

[GaryP]

someone piss in your cereal?

[dbrok]

jesus. to get a nice pair of jeans and shirt i still have to drive 2hrs. gr will never change...

i'll be waiting in line next to a guy with a hunter orange snow suit on, picking up ice fishing supplies....

GR will change...when the retailers realize there is demand for the store. Unfortunately GR-Muskegon-Holland is only about the 40th largest metro area, so we definitely do not get first dibs. The problem with downtown development is that a significant population doesn't want to live here. That's why there continues to be such an explosion of new developments in Caledonia, along the S. Beltline, Jamestown Twp, etc. That is where families with kids want to live, and that's where the stores want to be to pick up their massive amounts of disposable income. Plus many of these chains that move in want to be new from the ground up. If you open downtown, you have to work with the buildings that are already there for the most part, on smaller lots. If Home Depot wants to open a 100,000 sq ft store, it's much simpler to buy some cheaper farm land, create it their exact specifications and have their customer base within just a few miles.

Edited November 11, 2005 by dbrok

[GRDadof3]

I wouldn't consider the great majority of those stores proposed as upscale, but when combined with a high-end anchor or two and bundled as a package, it would be a change from what is offered in the area currently, and would be considered "upscale" as a total destination. Even Somerset Collection in Troy has a few hallmark stores, but is considered an upscale retail center.

If you have to drive 2 hrs from here to find a good pair of jeans, than you are a very unique buyer. I would guess that probably less than .1% of the national population of young people won't settle for Tommy or Gap jeans. I don't know if there is hope for you around here any time soon mrknowitall At least you don't have to pay the cost of living of those places 2 hrs from here??

But maybe I'm wrong. I think I only own 1 or 2 pair of jeans, so I'm probably the wrong guy to comment.

[twoshort]

I would guess that probably less than .1% of the national population of young people won't settle for Tommy or Gap jeans.

I'm assuming you mean that 99.9% of the young population can find suitable jeans in Grand Rapids?

[GRDadof3]

I'm assuming you mean that 99.9% of the young population can find suitable jeans in Grand Rapids?

That would be my guess. What do you think?

[GaryP]

AK Rikks now has custom fit denim for men. You cant really ask for anything more than that.