Palm trees - "Cabbage" palmetto trees - does your southern city have them? (ATTN: Atlanta/Columbia/Birmingham)

[Aporkalypse]

If that palmetto tree is in Memphis then it was obviously transplanted. We have, in general been having much warmer weather in the South over the last 10 years than in the years prior to that. If we get back to weather like we had in the late 70s early 80s one would see many of these trees die without the owners doing unnatural things to keep them from freezing.

All of these trees are generally grown in Mexico or Florida and transplanted Northward. In Dallas there are a large number of palms. The problem is that it really doesn't matter how cold or warm the winter as a whole is, it is simply a matter of the worst freeze. Few palms save windmills and a few hardier native species like dwarf palmettos and needle palms fare well below 20 degrees. In Dallas we had a generally very mild winter this year but one hard freeze early in the year down to 18 fahrenheit killed off or badly damaged a lot of palms, particularly the easily susceptible Mexican fan palms.

[Tennesseestorm]

During my recent research of palm trees, I have discovered that many will survive well below 0*f. The needle palm seems to be the most hardy, surviving as low as -25*f.

The birmingham sabal, has will survive to about -5*f and is considered one of the hardiest of the "trunking" palms.

I am thinking of getting one of those.

I found one site that said the windmill palm is hardy to zone 4 and will grow in Canada, but all other sources say 7B is the zone.

Now, without starting a new thread - how many have "southern live oaks" or "southern magnolias" in their city? This are other interesting southern trees.

I have a southern magnolia in my lawn I have had for years. It has flourished. Also they are throughout the city. We are officially in zone 6B/7A border, but the tree is officially "7A".

What other "southern" trees do you have in your lawn?

[Tennesseestorm]

To update, I ended up getting a "sabal birmingham". Supposed to be hardy down to zone 6B, so I thought that was the best choice, since I am on the 6B/7A border.

Also on the way is a southern live oak, which I have decided to give a whirl. Zoned 7A, it will be borderline here, but as mentioned, my southern magnolia has flourished for 10 years and other southern magnolias have flourished here over the past 40 years (there are some 40 years old in the downtown area) that survived the all-time record low of -21* in January of 1985, without any problems. With the "warming trend" I doubt we will ever see lows that cold again, but who knows. Seems like they would do just fine though.

I did speak to someone in Athens, TN that said they have flourishing southern live oaks that they have had for years. I am now wondering- anyone in Knoxville have any southern live oaks, or seen any in the region?

Thanks.

[monsoon]

I live in the Charlotte metro area which is considered Zone 7. Yet this area is just above line where a lot of southern plants are in danger of dying if we have a colder winter. Some examples of plants that are not seen here in nature are the palmetto, the southern live oak and its companion spannish moss, oleander, hibiscus (some varieties can make it here), and a few others that I don't remember. Just about 90 miles south of here in SC, these plants are quite common.

The problem really isn't the average winters seen here, but the extreme winters. As I mentioned above we really have not seen cold weather here that used to be quite common and as a result people are planting things here that really are not suited to the area.

[Tennesseestorm]

Yeah, Charlotte is on the 7A-7B border. http://www.treehelp.com/tools/hardiness-zones-us.asp

I really like the detail of this map. One thing that I do not understand about southeastern NC (and it shows this on all of the hardiness maps) is that it shows an area of zone 7B all the way to the coast in southeastern NC. This includes the Wilmington area, while some areas even well north and west of there are in zone 8A. It only gets lower in elevation south and east of there. Is there some reason that area is zone 7A, rather than 8A?

I went ahead and ordered the southern live oak. I have spoke to others and they say it should be OK here, especially with the milder winters that seem to be the norm these days, but like you mentioned, there could be future extreme winters. Its strange that not many of these (live oaks) in Charlotte. I can understand why they increase drastically just south and east of there, as elevation rapidly decreases as you head into teh "fall line hills" and down into the coastal plains.

I have spoken to some people in Knoxville on another tree site and they say some of these trees are growing there, as well as Athens, TN - all in zone 7A. I do remember seeing some live oaks at my uncles house in Raleigh, but no spanish moss. I did not see any of that until we got deeper into southeastern North Carolina, especially in Wilmington.

Thanks again.

I live in the Charlotte metro area which is considered Zone 7. Yet this area is just above line where a lot of southern plants are in danger of dying if we have a colder winter. Some examples of plants that are not seen here in nature are the palmetto, the southern live oak and its companion spannish moss, oleander, hibiscus (some varieties can make it here), and a few others that I don't remember. Just about 90 miles south of here in SC, these plants are quite common.

The problem really isn't the average winters seen here, but the extreme winters. As I mentioned above we really have not seen cold weather here that used to be quite common and as a result people are planting things here that really are not suited to the area.

[Aporkalypse]

Yeah, Charlotte is on the 7A-7B border. http://www.treehelp.com/tools/hardiness-zones-us.asp

I really like the detail of this map. One thing that I do not understand about southeastern NC (and it shows this on all of the hardiness maps) is that it shows an area of zone 7B all the way to the coast in southeastern NC. This includes the Wilmington area, while some areas even well north and west of there are in zone 8A. It only gets lower in elevation south and east of there. Is there some reason that area is zone 7A, rather than 8A?

I went ahead and ordered the southern live oak. I have spoke to others and they say it should be OK here, especially with the milder winters that seem to be the norm these days, but like you mentioned, there could be future extreme winters. Its strange that not many of these (live oaks) in Charlotte. I can understand why they increase drastically just south and east of there, as elevation rapidly decreases as you head into teh "fall line hills" and down into the coastal plains.

I have spoken to some people in Knoxville on another tree site and they say some of these trees are growing there, as well as Athens, TN - all in zone 7A. I do remember seeing some live oaks at my uncles house in Raleigh, but no spanish moss. I did not see any of that until we got deeper into southeastern North Carolina, especially in Wilmington.

Thanks again.

I don't know if this will help but keep in mind that being in an urban area can upgrade your zone slightly. Urban areas because of the amount of pavement, etc tend to retain heat and are a couple of degrees warmer during all seasons, including winter during freezes. This is precisely why most of Dallas' urban area is zone 8A on the USDA's map but you can drive west or east (as well as north) and in these less dense areas the USDA zones them 7b.

[Tennesseestorm]

Thats true. I live on the outskirts of town however, but we are one of the typically warmer spots in the metro area. Ironically, it seems like the "coolest" spot in the metro area is at the Tri-Cities airport (which is where the official reporting station is). Reason why is that they are in a river valley area.

Well, to update on my trees, I have decided to try some of the more hardier palm trees here. I have searched and searched the internet and have spoken to several people even in east Tennessee that have been successful in growing palms in east TN. I am going with the Sabal Birmingham, which is rated down to 6B, so it will be fine here. I am also going out on a limb and going to try a Washingtonia filifera. Some have reported to have survived 0* repeatedly. They are officially zoned 8B and up, so it will be interesting. It will have to be protected below 15* (if an unusual artic outbreak heads into the southeast). Some people use Christmas lamps on them to keep them warm in unusually cold weather. They have also been reported to have repeatedly survived unscathed in Dallas in 17* temperatures for several hours and 48 hours below 32*.

I am also going out and going to try a southern live oak. None around here that I know of. Closest I have heard of was in Knoxville - 110 miles southwest of here. They are zoned 7A and we are right on the border, so it may be OK too. Worth a try though.

When I first started this thread, I should have done more research. I never realized there were so many different species of hardy palms, but my main question anyway was about the cabbage palms anyway.

Thanks again for all of the replies.

I don't know if this will help but keep in mind that being in an urban area can upgrade your zone slightly. Urban areas because of the amount of pavement, etc tend to retain heat and are a couple of degrees warmer during all seasons, including winter during freezes. This is precisely why most of Dallas' urban area is zone 8A on the USDA's map but you can drive west or east (as well as north) and in these less dense areas the USDA zones them 7b.

[Aporkalypse]

Thats true. I live on the outskirts of town however, but we are one of the typically warmer spots in the metro area. Ironically, it seems like the "coolest" spot in the metro area is at the Tri-Cities airport (which is where the official reporting station is). Reason why is that they are in a river valley area.

Well, to update on my trees, I have decided to try some of the more hardier palm trees here. I have searched and searched the internet and have spoken to several people even in east Tennessee that have been successful in growing palms in east TN. I am going with the Sabal Birmingham, which is rated down to 6B, so it will be fine here. I am also going out on a limb and going to try a Washingtonia filifera. Some have reported to have survived 0* repeatedly. They are officially zoned 8B and up, so it will be interesting. It will have to be protected below 15* (if an unusual artic outbreak heads into the southeast). Some people use Christmas lamps on them to keep them warm in unusually cold weather. They have also been reported to have repeatedly survived unscathed in Dallas in 17* temperatures for several hours and 48 hours below 32*.

I am also going out and going to try a southern live oak. None around here that I know of. Closest I have heard of was in Knoxville - 110 miles southwest of here. They are zoned 7A and we are right on the border, so it may be OK too. Worth a try though.

When I first started this thread, I should have done more research. I never realized there were so many different species of hardy palms, but my main question anyway was about the cabbage palms anyway.

Thanks again for all of the replies.

If you really like palms, I recommend a Chinese Windmill palm ( T. fortunii). I have a couple and they are supposedly cold-hardy to 0 degrees. They grow VERY well in this area (zone 8A) with not even a tinge of brown in the winter. Apparently, they need a bit of cool weather to grow - they don't grow well in Florida.

Also, a Mediterranean fan palm (Chamaerops

humilis) is cold hardy to 10 degrees and tolerates Southern winters fairly well. I have one of these and it fared well last winter.

Washingtonia filifera (California fan palm) is cold hardy to 15 degrees or so and grows well in Dallas but does brown significantly in the winter here. It thrives further South in Houston and San Antonio.

The Mexican fan palm (washingtonia robusta) doesn't do well in colder temperatures and many people in DFW are duped into buying them and they die or are badly damaged in winter. The palms above are really better choices.

Sabal minor, of which sabal birmingham, sabal texana, and sabal louisiana are varieties seems to grow well but these tend to be less useful in landscaping and are often very hard to obtain though they are native plants in parts of the South.

[Tennesseestorm]

Thanks Aporkalypse for those photos and additional information.

Here are some other good palm tree sites I have found regarding palms:

http://www.crdb.net/cgi-bin/crdb/crdblist.cgi?DataBank=Palm

This site rates the Washington filifera to 12*, but the Washington Robusta only to 22*. There is supposed to be an even hardier Washingtonia called "filifera x robusta", that is hardy down to 6*. I hope this is the one that I have, because if it is the Robusta, it will not survive here. I am on the zone 7a border and while our "coldest average low" in mid January is 25*, it can drop below 20* occasionally with the artic outbreaks. The coldest temperature I recorded here at my house this past winter was 15*, but I remember a few years back that it dropped to the upper single digits/low teens with a harsh artic blast of cold air that invaded the southeast. I do not ever recall it dropping below 0* here, other than the severe artic outbreak in January of 1985 that set all time record lows in the east, when our temperature dropped to a frigid -21*. I do not think we have ever even been nowhere close to that since then.

Anyway, I have a sabal Birmingham on the way. Thanks for posting photos of that one. I have not seen that particular photo. That is a very nice looking palm and whats better is that it is rated even below my zone. Its rated hardy to -1.3*. The one I am getting is small. I hope it is not too slow of a grower. I am also getting a windmill palm from a local greenhouse. As you mentioned, I think it will be fine here too. The Washingtonia I just planted will be the real challenge. I will have to be really careful for at least the first few winters if we have an unusually cold winter. Probably have to heavily mulch and use the Christmas light trick on this one if it does drop below 18*- which is highly possible at least once per winter, but usually temps here that cold do not last for more than an hour or so. I also planted it on the southwestern corner of my house, where it will get the most sunshine and have good water drainage. BTW - great photos of that tree when it larger too.

Here is are a few photos I took this evening of my newly planted Washingtonia palm (whatever species it may be). I still am unsure what species it is, whether it is a filifera, robusta or the one that is hardier than the two. Hopefully someone will be able to tell by the photo. If it is the robusta, I might as well dig it back up before winter, or I am sure it will perish.

Thanks again!

[Jerseyman4]

I saw a couple "cabbage" palms in Manning, SC along US 301. Even saw some homes built South Florida contemporary style.

[appatone]

Tenneseestorm,

In Charlotte Palmettos are rapidly rising in popularity thanks to our neighbor to the south featuring them so prominently. Since many people in this area can still be on the fence about purchasing them I have seen several nurseries actually guarantee the palms for a certain number of years. One man I spoke to at a nursery said that whether or not a palmetto survives in this area (Charlotte) has everything to do with how it was planted and cared for during its first month in its new home. I would suggest calling around to see if any of the places you're buying plants from have similar guarantees on their palms. Here in the Charlotte area our local Botanical Garden has a few varieties of palms and actually gives occasional seminars on how to care for palms here. Perhaps a botanical garden or garden center in your area offers the same.

[Tennesseestorm]

Thanks for that information. I think that they would do fine in Charlotte. Like you mentioned- just to the south is really where some of the tropicals come in. Heading southward and rapidly lowering elevation really increases chances of survival. We are 2 hours north of Charlotte and 900 ft. higher in elevation, so if they survive here, surely they will there, but I do not think a cabbage palm will survive here. It is rated what- zone 8A or 8B? Something like that.

I remember seeing them all over the place when we went to Wilmington, NC.

Tenneseestorm,

In Charlotte Palmettos are rapidly rising in popularity thanks to our neighbor to the south featuring them so prominently. Since many people in this area can still be on the fence about purchasing them I have seen several nurseries actually guarantee the palms for a certain number of years. One man I spoke to at a nursery said that whether or not a palmetto survives in this area (Charlotte) has everything to do with how it was planted and cared for during its first month in its new home. I would suggest calling around to see if any of the places you're buying plants from have similar guarantees on their palms. Here in the Charlotte area our local Botanical Garden has a few varieties of palms and actually gives occasional seminars on how to care for palms here. Perhaps a botanical garden or garden center in your area offers the same.

[Richhamleigh, DC]

We have them in Charlotte (safely zone 7b) and in Raleigh (zone 7b and if the climate continues to change...likely a new zone 8a). They are native from North Carolina southward.

[Tennesseestorm]

Thanks for that info. I did not notice any when I was in Charlotte last time I was there, but that was back in 1997 and probably do not remember. Also, we was just passing by on the freeway. I will look closer on our next trip there.

We have them in Charlotte (safely zone 7b) and in Raleigh (zone 7b and if the climate continues to change...likely a new zone 8a). They are native from North Carolina southward.

[monsoon]

Thanks for that info. I did not notice any when I was in Charlotte last time I was there, but that was back in 1997 and probably do not remember. Also, we was just passing by on the freeway. I will look closer on our next trip there.

That's because they don't exist in nature in Charlotte so I am not sure why Phillydog says they exist here because they don't. People here occassionally try to transplant them into the Charlotte area and as I said above, they get burned badly in the winter and many times die. While we are in zone 7, our record low here is 5 below zero which is well below what those trees can tolerate. We have had a decade or so of warm winters, but I have seen many winters here where the daily high is in the single digits which again will kill these trees.

[sleepy]

New USDA hardiness zones came out a year or so ago.

http://www.ahs.org/pdfs/USDA_Map_3.03.pdf

Looks like Charlotte is right on the border of 7b and 8a.

I mistakenly mentioned above that Memphis is 9a. It's actually 8a.

There are two live oaks growing in Memphis downtown. They've been there for decades, but aren't very large.

For the poster interested in palms/live oaks in Tennessee, there are threads on all that stuff here:

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/tngard/

I guess it's global warming, but alligators are now considered native to Shelby Co. (Memphis).

http://faculty.southwest.tn.edu/rburkett/T...Spec%20Acct.htm

[Tennesseestorm]

Thanks. Yeah, some of the more tender ones would need protection. I know of someone in Chattanooga growing one, but they give it protection when temperatures are forecasted to be unusually cold. Many people will use a trunk cover and/or wrap Christmas lights around the trees. Also, I have heard that if you protect them for a few years, they become more hardy.

I really now do not know why I planted the "Washingtonia filifera" in my lawn. It is supposed to be hardy down to 12*, or 6* for a special hybrid type. While our temperatures do not normally get no where near that cold, it can get that cold with the "artic blasts" of cold air, but we have not seen it that cold in several years. I will really have to be careful with this one. There are several palms that will safely grow in zones as low as 6A. The needle palm as mentioned before is even zoned down to 5B with protection.

I think the Sabal Birmingham is the best choice for zones 7A and lower. It is zoned as low as 6B and it is one of the hardiest palms that develop a trunk as you know. I actually have one of those on the way and planting soon.

About the single digit highs - I do not think I have ever seen that here in east Tennessee, but I only remember a few years back (mid 1980s?) when I really got interested into weather. I think our "coldest" highs ever were at least in the 10s. I will research that. You have me wondering now.

That's because they don't exist in nature in Charlotte so I am not sure why Phillydog says they exist here because they don't. People here occassionally try to transplant them into the Charlotte area and as I said above, they get burned badly in the winter and many times die. While we are in zone 7, our record low here is 5 below zero which is well below what those trees can tolerate. We have had a decade or so of warm winters, but I have seen many winters here where the daily high is in the single digits which again will kill these trees.

[Tennesseestorm]

Thanks Sleepy. I noticed that too what you mentioned about Memphis, but I did not say anything, because I was unsure of your source. I was thinking it was different.

Thanks for that newly updated map. Seems like we are zone 7A (right on the border with 6A) according to that.

Here is a detailed map for the state of Tennessee - which also has us on the 7A border.

http://www.sepalms.org/Climate/TN%20Zone%2...f%20Stevens.pdf

Thanks too for those forum links. I will be sure to check them out!

New USDA hardiness zones came out a year or so ago.

http://www.ahs.org/pdfs/USDA_Map_3.03.pdf

Looks like Charlotte is right on the border of 7b and 8a.

I mistakenly mentioned above that Memphis is 9a. It's actually 8a.

There are two live oaks growing in Memphis downtown. They've been there for decades, but aren't very large.

For the poster interested in palms/live oaks in Tennessee, there are threads on all that stuff here:

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/tngard/

I guess it's global warming, but alligators are now considered native to Shelby Co. (Memphis).

http://faculty.southwest.tn.edu/rburkett/T...Spec%20Acct.htm

[DruidCity]

Here's a nice photo of a palmetto tree in Tuscaloosa from the local newspaper:

[Tennesseestorm]

That is a nice tree. Thanks for posting.....

I finally got one palm planted- the Washingtonia filifera. There are different species. The hardiest one is hardy down to 6* and it is "filifera X Robusta). I hope that is the one I got, because it did not specify. The others are hardy down to 12* (Washingtonia Filifera) and the other 22* (Washingtonia Robusta).

It has been in the ground for about 2 weeks and so far, so good. My Sabal Birmingham palmetto should be arriving soon. I know it will be fine here. Its hardy to -1.3*.

I finally got my southern live oaks planted too. They are doing fine too. Photos of those little trees later.

Here's a nice photo of a palmetto tree in Tuscaloosa from the local newspaper:

[Tennesseestorm]

Wow, I had totally forgot about this thread. Alot has happened since I posted here last. Anyway, I finally planted two more palms- a sabal Birmingham and a windmill palmetto as recommended- both are going fine, as is the Washington palm, but I do not think that one will survive here- even the hardiest version. I think the others will do well.

Well, "appatone " , I finally made it to Charlotte (autofair) and just got back from Charlotte over the weekend. I really did not see any palms in Charlotte, but just southeast of Charlotte on highway 52 across the state line in South Carolina I did see several- some larger than I expected. We went to AJ state park in Lancaster and I took these photos on the way back to Charlotte. I think this was about 15 miles southeast of Charlotte.

I also saw more loblolly pines than I have ever saw in my life. I cannot wait for mine to get that big. Seems to be the dominate tree down there.

I also saw some longleaf pines growing in the wild. We have very few of the longleaf pines here and of those- they are not natural here. I got mine from eastern NC and it is growing very well. There are only 6 others of these that I know of in our city.

Oh, I also got a photo of this Southern Live Oak outside of our hotal room in Pineville, NC- just southwest of Charlotte.....

That's because they don't exist in nature in Charlotte so I am not sure why Phillydog says they exist here because they don't. People here occassionally try to transplant them into the Charlotte area and as I said above, they get burned badly in the winter and many times die. While we are in zone 7, our record low here is 5 below zero which is well below what those trees can tolerate. We have had a decade or so of warm winters, but I have seen many winters here where the daily high is in the single digits which again will kill these trees.

[Miesian Corners]

There are many European Fan Palms around Charlotte. Westfield Ave in the Myers Park neighborhood is a beautiful little street with California bungalows dating from the 1920s. Every house on the street has these planted in front of them. I'll try and get a picture and post.

There are also Cabbage Palmettos growing in south Charlotte. BTW, those are great photos, Sandlapper. You need to snap some of the Palmetto trees growing on the State House lawn.

[Tennesseestorm]

Yes, please do get those photos and post.

Yeah, those Cabbage palms I posted photos of there were taken just southeast of Charlotte. On highway 52 I believe, just south of the state line.

There are many European Fan Palms around Charlotte. Westfield Ave in the Myers Park neighborhood is a beautiful little street with California bungalows dating from the 1920s. Every house on the street has these planted in front of them. I'll try and get a picture and post.

There are also Cabbage Palmettos growing in south Charlotte. BTW, those are great photos, Sandlapper. You need to snap some of the Palmetto trees growing on the State House lawn.

[AlabamaGuy2007]

There're palms growing in the Huntsville-Decatur area.

[johnnydr87]

I had the most useless dream last night.

I dreamt that coconut and palm trees were growing in downtown Hot Springs by the cliffs because the cliffs were radiating off heat. In the dream I was like, "Huh. That's interesting. I need to report this."

I would have NEVER remembered that dream had this thread not triggered the memory again.