Charlotte Center City Streetcar Network

[videtur quam contuor]

Then there are the B-cycle stations at Metropolitan, CPCC, Gateway and several other locations. Free, after the one time registration. Likely faster than Streetcar, walking, maybe bus and private car too.

[southslider]

The frequency on the starter segment could also be limited by the total number of vehicles. The City did opt to reuse the replica trolleys. Put all of those into service, and maybe hold back a spare or two for parts, and more frequent service may just not be physically feasible.

[ajfunder]

^There are only three replica streetcars and two will be used at a time. Whichever streetcar is not in service will be held in reserve or undergo scheduledmaintenance.

I assume the streetcars will be held in the pocket tracks until the designated departure time every 15 minutes.

Parking habits are really gonna have to change along Elizabeth, saw multiple cars parked so poorly today it was like they were angle parked. Hopefully the street parking won't become a major source of delays for the streetcar line and come back to haunt planners.

[ah59396]

I have a feeling our phase 1 streetcar is going to be a publicity disaster filled with delays, complaints and all sorts of fun. Ugh.

[Guest]

I have a feeling our phase 1 streetcar is going to be a publicity disaster filled with delays, complaints and all sorts of fun. Ugh.

Absolutely agree.

[asthasr]

The street car was a complete mistake. The city should have been focusing on improving bus service, implementing (real) BRT to more distant areas, and advocating commuter rail. The problem is that people go to San Francisco, see the streetcars, and think "we want that, too!"

[15895]

The street car was a complete mistake. The city should have been focusing on improving bus service, implementing (real) BRT to more distant areas, and advocating commuter rail. The problem is that people go to San Francisco, see the streetcars, and think "we want that, too!"

The city can't really do anything about transit. Streetcar was a CIP with a lot of federal dollars. That's up to CATS which has no money.

I think the verdict is too early to tell. It's the starter line. Itll accomplish what it's supposed to. And if there is a public nightmare with it, it'll blow over and I doubt it'll effect other transit projects. The Gold Line could be a disaster but there will always be strong support for Light Rail in the city, IMO and there will probably be strong support for commuter rail to LKN.

I think the gold line will be vert successful once it's expanded. Especially to Plaza.

[southslider]

CPCC-Main students will make or break Phase 1. None of the buses on Elizabeth, including Gold Rush, had that much better frequency. Many Gold Rush riders also don't ride past the CTC. Finally, being free, like Gold Rush, makes it an easy transition for students, who are the largest segment (including JCSU and J&WU) of current Gold Rush riders.

Edited March 12, 2015 by southslider

[tozmervo]

The street car was a complete mistake. The city should have been focusing on improving bus service, implementing (real) BRT to more distant areas, and advocating commuter rail. The problem is that people go to San Francisco Portland, see the streetcars, and think "we want that, too!"

 

ftfy

[MilZ]

Now people here are saying the streetcar is a mistake? I can understand concerns about frequency, the "trolleys", and initial ridership on Phase I, but when the purpose is to increase property value east to west and increase the tax base so the city can have smarter growth, there are not many alternatives. Light rail would be awesome, but the infrastructure does not exist. BRT may be more efficient, but no one builds TOD around bus stops.

This is still about growth corridors, right?

Edited March 12, 2015 by MilZ

[dcharlotte]

Sadly, most of the area around the future streetcar is controlled by a land developer who hasn't moved on their land holdings (1st Ward and Midtown) and government uses (CPCC, city, county, federal). South End had a few developers who took big bets that paid off while Grubb and Levine are the most risk-adverse developers we have in the city. They see the competition from other developments and are too timid to do anything. 

 

If anything, the developers with land along the line should get the blame. They have the most to gain from this investment by the city, state, and federal government and to date have not done too much to show their commitment.

 

Low frequency, unfamiliarity with street cars, and one media will paint the streetcar as bad in the eyes of those in Charlotte. I foresee the story that follows one suburban mom who got her car towed when she parked in the middle of the tracks and claims that she parked in a parking space. Nevermind you can't park in the middle of Providence Road, but the media won't cover that part of the story - it will be how much her tow truck cost and how she missed her important business lunch with her friends at the DAR. That was an oddly specific story, but WSOC-TV is already picking it up. 

[dubone]

On many things throughout this forum, I agree with you; however I can't say I agree with this notion that the streetcar was designed according to best practices.  Much like you are convinced that the Gateway Station location is not an example of engineering best practices, I am convinced that beyond Phase 1 and 2 there is nothing "best practices" about the Gold Line. 

 

Streetcars do not function well as long, linear modes of transit; they work best in an urban circulator role focused on short trips, yet the planners of the system, likely driven by political interests, have chosen to try to force a modern streetcar system to accomplish a task for which it was not intended.  Even the poster child of streetcar design, the Portland Streetcar, does not extend more than maybe a mile or two from the CBD.  

 

I was referring to standards of spacing the stations distances by the practices within the mode of streetcar.  Not that streetcar is better than other modes for the corridor in question.   

 

I ABSOLUTELY agree that the Phase 3 and beyond should include a dedicated transit-only lane or median on busy Central Avenue.  It would be more like a light rail or the traditional streetcars running mostly in medians.  I still kind of wish our city's old streetcar medians would be re-activated for streetcar (East Blvd, Plaza, Queens, 10th, etc.) but that is rather aggressive for this conversation today.

 

 

 

Then there are the B-cycle stations at Metropolitan, CPCC, Gateway and several other locations. Free, after the one time registration. Likely faster than Streetcar, walking, maybe bus and private car too.

CATS is also free after a one time registration of a monthly transit pass.    I believe this is higher-order math.  But CATS wins in the end if the population choses to live in an urban location where they can bike and even walk to their destination.  As they will then chose to transit for some of their trips for weather and lower effort.   I personally am one of those people that take a B-cycle from uptown to Southend on many occasions, but then take the rail back home after I'm tired.  My friends (some UPers) also will often bike or walk, but transit gets added to the mix far more often for them than the car-only people I know. 

 

 

 

__________________________________

 

The discussion is all over the map today, so I don't know what to reply to.   But dear sweet mother of God, I am grateful our city is investing in the streetcar rather than just throwing more Chance Coaches on the Gold Rush Red line.   Those things are just the worst.  But most diesel buses are significantly worse of an experience and comfort than any rail line.   I feel like the people who want only buses are generally people who have never ridden a rail line or do not plan on using the corridor and just do not have empathy for the people in that corridor.   

 

Paraphrasing an analogy of Petrov from House of Cards, it is like only having ridden in Lada all your life and riding in your first Lexus.     There is just no comparison between a 3rd rate bus vehicle with a signpost and a brown cube trashcan compared with a large electric rail transit vehicle running on continuously welded tracks with a large permanent stations with canopies and seating.    If you are thinking about building a dense urban development, there is also no comparison between a permanent rail investment in a corridor over a bus route subject to change at any time.  

[dubone]

Low frequency, unfamiliarity with street cars, and one media will paint the streetcar as bad in the eyes of those in Charlotte. I foresee the story that follows one suburban mom who got her car towed when she parked in the middle of the tracks and claims that she parked in a parking space. Nevermind you can't park in the middle of Providence Road, but the media won't cover that part of the story - it will be how much her tow truck cost and how she missed her important business lunch with her friends at the DAR. That was an oddly specific story, but WSOC-TV is already picking it up. 

Lol.   There will always be an elite that will not use transit.  There will also always be a suburban traditionalist population that does not want any urban planning to change the cul-de-sac-and-automobile exurbs they prefer.  ALL progress towards density and urban growth is negative to that group, and it is a cultural divide that is surely shifting toward urbanists.  

 

But then WSOC and other TV news exists to create false conflict, so that would be thrilling for them to pick up as a story.   

 

 

But I think it will pass after a few months once people realize the line is built in an area that can support it (even without Grubb moving dirt) and is a vastly better transit option for a larger cross section of society than what a tiny bus with wood trim could ever win.  

[RugbyPike#11]

Parking habits are really gonna have to change along Elizabeth, saw multiple cars parked so poorly today it was like they were angle parked. Hopefully the street parking won't become a major source of delays for the streetcar line and come back to haunt planners.

 

Would it be really difficult to funnel traffic off the problem sections of Elizabeth and make the problem parking areas a street-car dedicated Right-of-Way?

[15895]

I personally plan to use the starter segment a lot to get to the greenway. (walking past 277 is annoying with the constant flow of traffic using the 277 ramps)

[Guest]

I personally plan to use the starter segment a lot to get to the greenway. (walking past 277 is annoying with the constant flow of traffic using the 277 ramps)

I was thinking the same. The walk from Elizabeth to uptown is certainly possible, but not exactly the easiest. 

[tozmervo]

I used to live off Queens Rd over there and would walk-commute to my office @ Trade and Tryon. Especially on summer mornings, the humidity + the uphill (approx 100' grade difference) would result in some pretty hardcore sweat. 

 

Depending on my mood, I would sometimes just walk up to the then-Presbyterian and catch the Gold Rush. Was nice and easy since I knew it left Presby every 15 minutes on the 15s

[ah59396]

To clarify; I don't think the streetcar is a bad idea. I'm all for it. I just have serious concerns about the execution of said streetcar. We can all scoff at how it's perceived publicly once it opens, because we will all support expansion, and because we are aware of the full build-out. The long game, if you will.

But many in the city do not want it. They don't want to pay for it and they consider it a folly already. The light rail shut most of the naysayers up because it was and is a resounding success. The last thing we need is a poor service streetcar line bogged down by parking issues and stories on the Observer about how you can walk faster than the "trolley".

I just don't want to give the naysayers anything to point to the next time transit funding is on the ballot.

[michaelef]

So we must be the people to shut the naysayers up. Which means, no matter what were doing, we ride the streetcar as much as possible. Bring friends, pack the car. 

[kermit]

It didn't take long for the city's teapublican induced budget shortfall to blowback on Phase II of the Goldline:

 

 

It’s likely that City Council members will revisit projects that already are budgeted, such as the second phase of the streetcar, to Johnson C. Smith University and the Elizabeth neighborhood. Republican council member Kenny Smith suggested the council reconsider that project and others.

 

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article15063407.html

Edited March 18, 2015 by kermit

[ah59396]

It didn't take long for the city's teapublican induced budget shortfall to blowback on Phase II of the Goldline:

 

 

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article15063407.html

 

 

I don't think any party is to blame.  Lets not pretend like the city council isn't dominated by Democrats at a 9-2 margin.  I'm generally pro-democrat, but this shortfall is flat out garbage from city council.  How they couldn't see this issue approaching considering they were well aware of the business privilege tax repeal is such a sad scapegoat, it's borderline frustrating.  The ineptitude from our city representatives as of late has been extremely showing.  And now they are putting important capital works projects in jeopardy.

 

Booming economy...massive influx of population into the city... and these geniuses still can't balance a freaking budget.  Unreal.

[mallguy]

It didn't take long for the city's teapublican induced budget shortfall to blowback on Phase II of the Goldline:

 

 

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article15063407.html

Republicans are only a small minority in the county commission.  Democrats control the mayor's office and a majority of the county commission.  It's at best a far stretch to blame Republicans for this. 

[vicupstate]

Republicans are only a small minority in the county commission.  Democrats control the mayor's office and a majority of the county commission.  It's at best a far stretch to blame Republicans for this. 

 

Well, it was the GOP  that cut 18.1 million from the city's revenue stream and there is a 15.6 million deficit, so yes, they are to blame.  Not a stretch at all.     

[js4life]

I think some are a little confused about the shortfall. It is caused by the jacked up revaluations & by the state eliminating the business privelage tax without any concrete way to replace that revenue stream. Their also a proposal to shift some of the tax revenue from urban to rural counties. This might knock another 20 million out of the city/county budget

Edited March 18, 2015 by js4life

[navigator319]

just so everyone using the same facts about the money flows.  right from the nice observer summary...

 

For the upcoming fiscal year, the city has been hit with two financial setbacks.

$18.1 million – the loss of the Business Privilege License tax

$14 million – reduction in property tax revenue due to commercial property being appraised lower

 

Some of those losses are being made up from the booming economy

$6.6 million – new property tax revenue from new construction

$3 million – new sales tax revenue from people spending more

 

City already has proposed some cuts

$6.9 million – no pay raises for next year

$6 million – 1 percent across the board cut for all departments

 

That leaves a projected $15.6 million shortfall

Read more here: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article15063407.html#storylink=cpy