383 replies to this topic

[atlrvr]

Shawn&Zae, on May 30 2005, 01:23 PM, said:

I made a map, but I'm a lil confused how the streetcar line gonna loop around The Plaza, well the map I made, I made the streetcar line looped with the Central Ave line. atlrvr can explain it more.

Streetcar Map

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I realized when I saw your map I made a mistake.....the street car will go up to Parkwood, not the plaza....and dead-end (like at Cedar)

Also, the street car on Graham will actualy turn up 10th and dead end just before Church St.

The of course the Beatties Ford/Central Ave line will go as originally planned.

[Shawn&Zae]

So where does the streetcar line stop at Parkwood? Does it loop around?

Edited by Shawn&Zae, 30 May 2005 - 11:53 AM.

[dubone]

i absolutely LOVE each of those lines you described.

Here are my own comments of what to change, though:
I agree, though, with your comments of extending the kenilworth , at least to turn around where Scott/Kenilworth fork by Park. That would open up those blocks to denser redev, whereas there isn't a lot of room for growth if it turns around at Pierce. Extension to SP is an eventual certainty, in my opinion, if a starter line like the k-worth is built.

I also would hope they could extend the 10th street line in Fourth ward across to the Light Rail line, and change from a 9th street LRT station to a 10th Street. That would put 2 streetcar-LRT connections to ease route-picking for commuters.

The Cedar spur is also awesome, because it ties that corner into downtown. I still have hopes that a streetcar line could go down wilkinson to the airport. But if not, i'd prefer that the cedar line didn't stop where you have listed, but rather go the extra half mile down to Bryant Park on W Morehead. I also prefer a mint route to cedar, but no big deal.

I love the idea of going up through the heart of Belmont. That would be a major investment in that community, which complements the Belmont/Hope VI plans for PiedCo.

These little spurs are an awesome way to touch on all the corridors into downtown. And have the potential for extension over time to fill the gaps of the 5 main routes.

That little loop is much less valuable to the city than the plan you describe, so if the same money can buy these routes, then awesome.

Are there any hopes for the big institutions/activity centers these pass to pay for part? Like have the developers of the Cedar/Morehead district chip in for that spur, CMC for part of K-worth spur. Does that kind of thing happen anywhere?

[dubone]

Shawn&Zae, on May 30 2005, 11:41 AM, said:

So where does the streetcar line stop at Parkwood? Does it loop around?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

These are all spurs, so it is likely they just stop and start going the opposite direction. All they really need is a fancy median or something, which wouldn't be a problem on Siegel as it it not a major thoroughfare.

the map really gives a visual for how these came to be.
- Graham, McDowell and half of 10th were components of the original plan...
- Cedar replaces the southern part of Graham
- Kenilworth replaces Stonewall
- Siegel replaces the eastern part of 10th, with a little bit more length.

i love it.

too bad there is no way to do these sooner.

EDIT: here is an updated version of S&Z's map:

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[Shawn&Zae]

what I'm talking is look at the lil loop near CMC with Scott and Pierce street, A streetcar's turning radius is about the same as a city bus because it multisegmented, what I was wondering is, a streetcar line can't just end without a loop so it can turn around. So does the Siegle line just turn to parkwood then loop around one of the gridded street in the next block then loop back to the Siegle line?

[atlrvr]

That map is correct......We will really began to have some decent rail-based transit coverage within 2 miles of T&T once these, and the LRT lines are built.

[atlrvr]

A streetcar can end without a loop if it is a reverse Y......they are willing to do this as long a road has low traffic counts.

Now all they need is a line running down Morehead from Wilkinson onto Queens and then Providence.

[dubone]

...true about Morehead-Queens-Providence. That corridor is getting the nice desner infill for folks wanting to live in "Myer's Park". The only reason i'd not be supportive of that route is if it meant that the corridor would lose its charm... but many parts of morehead and that stretch of queens had their charmed wrecked a bit over time.... to transit could help redev those areas.

The REAL need, though, is for these things to just happen . I just wish we could build the whole dang system at once and pay for it over 25 years, rather than build it over 25 years .

Does anyone know if streetcar on existing street row have less engineering red tape for the feds? They are so much like a bus route, i can't image the environmental assessments are that complicated. It is just nuts to figure that many of these corridors probably still have tracks embedded deep under the asphalt. sigh. the old maps of the streetcar lines from the 30s and 40s are really cool. This new info on these spurs really make me optimistic that we can get that charm back.

[orulz]

atlrvr, on May 30 2005, 04:09 PM, said:

A streetcar can end without a loop if it is a reverse Y......they are willing to do this as long a road has low traffic counts.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Streetcars need neither a loop nor a wye. They are bi-directional vehicles. The driver simply walks from one end of the vehicle to the other, and switches pantographs. Doesn't get any easier than that.

[atlrvr]

True.....but for double-tracked lines you need the Y....otherwise their could be problems.

[dubone]

the bottom line seems to be that a spur that just ends at a point on a map is doable, as long as traffic counts/space allow the right track parts.

[dubone]

CATS has really updated their websites lately.

There are a bunch of renderings of the Trade++ streetcar at
http://www.charmeck.org/Departments/CATS/R...ty+Meetings.htm

there a number of renderings to displays the "wye" we talked about above.... but if these spurs happen, they'd likely do the same thing as in these presentations, where they determine whether to do a block loop or a wye-reversal.

Also, check out the 1928 trolley maps on pg 5 on the Central/Hawthorne Ave Wkshp Presentation. These presentations have a lot of info.

Edited by dubone, 30 May 2005 - 05:58 PM.

[dubone]

...And page 20 of the Trade Street /Elizabeth Ave.Workshop Presentation has the maps of the spur lines we have been talking about...

It actually only shows he siegel line as going to belmont ave and the kworth line going a little further than pierce (i think to the cross alley behind Latta Pavilion).

[Shawn&Zae]

oh so that's how they will do it, for the temporary end of the line at Plaza, I hope they don't do the loop but do a Y instead, it looks easier that way.

[dubone]

i agree that the wye's look less complicated, but sadly only the loops will put the trains between the old central storefronts, which would be ashame.

[Mobuchu]

Extending the trolley down kenilworth to park and all the way to south park would be great. I wonder if they stoped it where they did because of the intersections at east blvd? Kenilworth and Scott are at high angles to east blvd. You can see the scrape marks on the road where cars either went too fast through the intersection or were just low riding. With the structure of Latta pavilion being so close to the road how much of a hassle would they have with smoothing out kenilworth and scott? Im sure streetcars cant handle angles like that.

Either way, I guess thats why engineers get paid the big bucks, lol.

[dubone]

i'm sure they stopped it where they did because of money. These spur lines sum to be of roughly equal length to the original loop.

I'm sure any gradation changes would just be minor construction hurdles.

[Shawn&Zae]

dubone, on May 30 2005, 08:03 PM, said:

...And page 20 of the Trade Street /Elizabeth Ave.Workshop Presentation has the maps of the spur lines we have been talking about...

It actually only shows he siegel line as going to belmont ave and the kworth line going a little further than pierce (i think to the cross alley behind Latta Pavilion).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm tryin to find that link, which link is that in?

[dubone]

i know. i tried to add all sorts of links, but they seem to 404 when you use them again.

try this one:
http://www.charmeck.org/Departments/CATS/R...il+May+2005.htm

also note that all of these terminus and route variations are all options at this point. they are still mulling over them. They are even considering 4th or 5th routes through the city on the main line with trade as just one direction.

The later docs, though, seem to have the H circulator routes rather than the O (ie. graham, cedar, mcdowell, kworth, siegel rather than 10th, 2nd, graham, mcd) seeming like those are currently the thinking of cats.

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[dubone]

here is the historical map from the presentations:

Solid Blue: 1928 trolley routes
Dashed Magenta: Plaza-Midwood to JC Smith route, by 2009
Dashed Green: Beatties Ford and Central Extensions, by 2017
Dashed Cyan: Central circulator spurs, by 2025