Transit Updates for Greater Grand Rapids

[Rizzo]

It seems as though a lot of people like the idea of rail transit. You know all this talk relative to a commuting system can happen. It appears now more then ever (After the interurban) Metro GR as a whole is receptive to the notion that mass transit works. What makes our situation more intune to the idea of rail transit is how our metro consists of a distinct central urban city with good size urban centers orbiting. As Downtown continues to boom and eventually attracting thousands of workers, I wonder how many are living out near existing lines?

What needs to happen first is that the people of the area need to look at the past to realize it has been done, and if with effort and vision it can be done today. A future line doesn't need to aspire to be a gargantuan transit system like NYC, Chicago, or even much smaller cities like Nashville. What we need to do as a community is actually entertain the idea that a really small system to test the water could instill a need in of itself.

What we could do is acquire used cars from other transit systems in the US and purchase a refurbished locomotive from a railroad society. there are many possibilities. Also, negotiate logistics and railway usage with the operators of rail lines. When I say 'we' I mean an organization with buying power.

What about a seasonal operating express between GR and the lake shore? A line that would take people to the lake shore to enjoy the coast cities -- a day at the lake. The Lake is one of the premier destination points in Metro GR. And reverse, people living out at the lake shore could take an express line to downtown to catch in on the growing action.

What about using the poll and attraction Downtown offers and having a dinner train from Coopersville to Downtown or Holland to Downtown (moving slow of course)? Possibly Muskegon to Holland to Downtown? Maybe also having an affiliation with the DASH service to shuttle the visitors from the station to planned events, such as a concert at the Van or musical at the Meijer Majestic? A for profit entity could offset the cost of operation and allow for a seperate transit carriage when the line isn't being used...

If people again take notice of the allure rail possesses, maybe it could spur a demand on the rails for true transit modes.

I asked a rep over at GR Eatern RailRoad/RailAmerica about service on that railside and according to him it's not maintaned to standards fit for passanger service.

Edited September 22, 2006 by Rizzo

[GRDadof3]

For those of you light rail advocates and enthusiasts, here is an excellent THREAD WITH PHOTOS of the extension of a South line being built in Charlotte. There are several pages with photos, including through testing of the new trains. It's great having contributors like this on this forum to see project in other cities. I can totally see a similar system built along I-196 on the current rail line there, with a park-n-ride garage like they are building.

[GRDadof3]

In spirit of that thread, here's a visionary rail line that I worked on:

Here's your future park-n-ride rail-station starting point, off of Leffingwell/Oak Industrial (and right next to I-196/East Beltline):

(existing rail line is near the powerlines in the background)

Looking West from the Leffingwell overpass

Crossing at Maryland looking East

Crossing at Maryland Ave looking West

It's quite picturesque in this stretch.

Looking East from the Plymouth crossing

Looking West

It's actually more dense in this area than it looks

1/2 block away from the crossing at Plymouth and Michigan, looking West toward healthcare hill in the distance

Looking West from Fuller

Looking East from the Diamond Ave crossing

Looking West from Diamond

Only about 200' from Michigan at this crossing, great place for some TOD's.

Nice warehouse (possible TOD lofts) at Houseman

Possible crossover area near Houseman to bring into Michigan at grade

Michigan St looking West

Climbing the hill

(MidTowne Village to the right)

Entering Healthcare Alley

LAST STOP

[Rizzo]

I've been informed by GRER management that the track isn't passenger grade. Just conversing with some railroaders leads me to believe that this is very doable. Imagine the development spured with this kind of system. You can buy a full out "train" for under 600,000 and the tarrif will put you at 1,000 a car to use the rail.

Edited September 29, 2006 by Rizzo

[GRDadof3]

I've been informed by management that the track isn't passenger grade.

The whole line needs work, and obviously there isn't track in the middle of Michigan St. That's why it's "visionary". It can't imagine it gets a lot of use. I'm in that area often, and I've NEVER seen a train on it.

[Rizzo]

When I get back to GR I'm trying out to operate locomotives -- I'll drive it for you.

[walker]

As long as this is just visionary and the tracks haven't been laid yet on Michigan Street, you may want to consider making it a subway instead. It's my guess that the grade on Michigan Street hill is too steep for a train to go up and more importantly to get back down. I think this might be the reason the existing track veers to the north for about a mile.

[tamias6]

As long as this is just visionary and the tracks haven't been laid yet on Michigan Street, you may want to consider making it a subway instead. It's my guess that the grade on Michigan Street hill is too steep for a train to go up and more importantly to get back down. I think this might be the reason the existing track veers to the north for about a mile.

Subways are extremely expensive to build. GR would have to be atleast a major US city on par with the likes of Seattle, D.C., Chicago, Boston, NY, etc. This city has about 75 to 100 or so more years worth of growing to do before attaining that kind of size, wealth, and power.

[Rizzo]

Actually, some would contend otherwise. It would be a hard sell to investment. A subway for this situation wouldn't be something on par with cities like NYC, LA, or Chicago.

Edited September 29, 2006 by Rizzo

[blueradon]

Do you think it would be feasible to build an underground tunnel rail line underneath Michigan St that connected with existing outside rails? Or would you think that would cost just as much as a subway?

Just had the thought in mind...

[walker]

Subways are extremely expensive to build. GR would have to be atleast a major US city on par with the likes of Seattle, D.C., Chicago, Boston, NY, etc. This city has about 75 to 100 or so more years worth of growing to do before attaining that kind of size, wealth, and power.

I didn

[DwntwnGeo]

In spirit of that thread, here's a visionary rail line that I worked on:

LAST STOP

GRDad,

Why stop at the top of the hill? You should continue to go westward along Michigan/Bridge to at least Seward. There is another rail line going North/South which would be another future line in the Westside district. Doing this you would be able to pick up Riverhouse, and be near Union Square and the Broadway&First Developement.

[GRDadof3]

GRDad,

Why stop at the top of the hill? You should continue to go westward along Michigan/Bridge to at least Seward. There is another rail line going North/South which would be another future line in the Westside district. Doing this you would be able to pick up Riverhouse, and be near Union Square and the Broadway&First Developement.

I just picked a possible line that caught my attention recently. I think you guys are right about the grade. Buffalo has a subway system, and is not that large of a city, but that would send the price skyward. The other possibility would be to run it along the I-196 right-of-way. I was just thinking of areas where there are already lines in place that can be converted over. That's probably the only way we'll see mass transit in the next 20 - 30 - 40 years.

[DwntwnGeo]

I just picked a possible line that caught my attention recently. I think you guys are right about the grade. Buffalo has a subway system, and is not that large of a city, but that would send the price skyward. The other possibility would be to run it along the I-196 right-of-way. I was just thinking of areas where there are already lines in place that can be converted over. That's probably the only way we'll see mass transit in the next 20 - 30 - 40 years.

There isn't anything wrong with your plan/vision. It would be a great addition or start to the City's move toward mass transit. My suggestion could be more of a "second" phase as it will cost more money since there isn't any existing rail lines to use along Michigan/Bridge street. When a line is picked and constructed, I think people will start to see how useful and successful they will be to the Community. Once people start to see this, they will be more accepting to additional routes.

[Greedo]

Why would the last stop be the top of Michigan Hill? Why wouldn't this thing extend into the core?

[GRDadof3]

Why would the last stop be the top of Michigan Hill? Why wouldn't this thing extend into the core?

Cost. The further you go into the core, I'm sure costs go up tremendously. I also envision some kind of circulator streetcar, or the current DASH system, servicing it from there along Division. Besides, people can walk. In case you guys didn't read the MDOT thread, I picked this corridor because they are contemplating spending $450 Million to increase congestion along I-196 into downtown over the next 10 years. Also, Michigan Hill will be a MAJOR employment center with well over 10,000 workers in the next 10 years. I imagine many of those medical workers will come from the East side.

Every city starts with one line, and builds off of that.

[walker]

Why would the last stop be the top of Michigan Hill? Why wouldn't this thing extend into the core?

That would be an awful big drop from the Michigan Street hill. You

[vexom]

... or maybe a roller coaster to get up and down the hill. ...

I think our entire mass transit system should be a roller coaster I'm only joking of course although it wouldn't be terrible considering how smooth coasters are now. Millenium Force at CP cost 25 million 6 years ago and a system in GR wouldn't have to go over 300 ft in the air with 90+ mph or provide any thrill twist and turns. Considering MDOT contemplating $450 million it doesn't sound like such a crazy idea

Edited September 30, 2006 by vexom

[walker]

... It's my guess that the grade on Michigan Street hill is too steep for a train to go up and more importantly to get back down.

Well maybe it's not too steep after all. I don't know about light rail but according to this old map apparently there used to be a streetcar that went up and down Michigan Street.

STREETCARMAP

[GRDadof3]

Well maybe it's not too steep after all. I don't know about light rail but according to this old map apparently there used to be a streetcar that went up and down Michigan Street.

STREETCARMAP

Hmm, interesting. And it went to Diamond. It looks like light rail has a maximum grade of 7 - 9 just from doing a quick SEARCH.

I don't know what Michigan Street between Diamond and College is, but over a distance of about 1500', it rises probably 50' (someone with some better math skills?)

[Rizzo]

grade rise .36 inch per one foot. Basically 3.33%

Edited September 30, 2006 by Rizzo

[tamias6]

Well maybe it's not too steep after all. I don't know about light rail but according to this old map apparently there used to be a streetcar that went up and down Michigan Street.

STREETCARMAP

A street car system in this similar configuration would very effective if built today, although extentions out to ateast the inner 'burbs would have to be made.

Edited September 30, 2006 by tamias6

[GRDadof3]

More discussion of alternative transportation modes NEEDED for Healthcare Hill:

Health Centers and Heavy Traffic

"The citizen involvement in this project is much narrower than I expected," said Mayor George Heartwell, speaking on August 30, 2006 at an MDOT-sponsored public meeting about the Michigan Street bridge expansion project. "There is such an intensity of use up on Health Hill that you can't possibly build a roadbed wide enough to handle all the auto traffic that will be there. So the non-motorized options are every bit as important as the motorized travel.

Even if 1/2 of the 15,000+ future employment base on healthcare hill could be shuttled to the site via streetcar, LRT or even busses, it would eliminate the need to widen the roads.

[GRDadof3]

Health Centers and Heavy Traffic

[downtownGRguy]

A few random thoughts:

WOW, 4500 jobs is a TON. I didn't realize there would be that many, this is GREAT!

I agree that this requires some careful planning for how people will get there.

I can't believe that pedestrians seem to be forgotten altogether, somebody wrote about how the sick wouldn't probably walk to the hospital. This ignores the fact that at least half of the people on the hill will be staff/students.

Even the comment that 400 people will have to "park" off site shows a lack of thinking...Why do 400 people have to park anywhere. Thats less than 10% of the new jobs, don't you think that a few people will want to live in river house, plaza towers, tall house, the fitzgerald, peoples building, the new places in the McKay tower, etc.? I have a condo advertised for rent right now in the Plaza Towers and have already had some inquiries from people who will be moving to GR for healthcare jobs/Med School next year. Unfortunately I need a renter now, not next year...but still bodes well for the future. People from downtown could walk to the hill easily if it were ped friendly...or an enhanced DASH type service would be nice in the winter, etc.

I personally don't have a problem with widening I-196, I doubt 2 more lanes will really change anything from the pedestrian standpoint, or change the charactor of the area.

Its too bad as the huge parking ramps along I-196 were being built people were not thinking about how you could do an exit ramp/service road etc. from along I-196 to keep all those cars off College and/or Michigan. If people do decide to drive, let them pull off the highway into their ramp....hey its their boring life....lol.

I like the idea of public transport...seems like the perfect opportunity..with this many people all working in one small area

The park over the highway idea is interesting as well...could connect Belknap and make some more viable walkable housing to Med Hill

Sorry about the rambling thoughts..but its late...lol