945 replies to this topic

[Lexy]

northernbizzkit1, on Jul 16 2006, 04:46 PM, said:

yes, you have made good points as well, but I think ALL of the airlines have to rethink their strategy now because the lowcost airlines aren't exactly making a killing anymore. Yes, they are lucrative and much more profitable than the legacies as far as domestic routes go, but fuel costs have made it where Southwest, Jet Blue, and Frontier have had to all scramble to figure where to go. Southwest has looked into 737NGs and even into purchasing regional jets and Jet Blue has fuel-efficient regional jets that are basically equivalent to a small 737 simply due to the fact that the soaring fuel prices have made it where even cheapo Southwest is not making the profits that it expected. The issue of the DC-9 and DC-10 I addressed earlier with the fact that Compass is going to take care of the DC-9 problem (fuel efficient air craft and lower salaries for the flight crew) and the A330/787 combo will alleviate the gas guzzling DC-10 by the end of the year.

Northwest is coming out of bankruptcy and it is doing so by recognizing where it can make money and trim costs. If you have a market like Paducah or Laurel, MS where Northwest is basically the only airline operating, it turns out to be lucrative b/c the O&D is actually quite well (not sure specifically about those specific markets, tho) and cutting it would be loss of a definite cash flow. The trimming is taking place on poor flights from the focus cities. MKE has been cut tremendously, and even flights from IND have been cut. Where most of the regional flights are being trimmed are at DTW and MSP because it is rather absurd for them to fly an A320 from DTW to Flint, Michigan. While some regional flights are working, the MEM hub is actually one of the most profitable things for NW, and that is why it is being expanded. The great weather and central location have made it where you don't have irate customers freaking out because of a flight delay due to snow. It's layout and overall operation is the reason as to why NW is expanding here rather than cutting like it is doing at the other hubs.

And yes, I have spoken to an ATA pilot recently as well as an ATA exec from Indianapolis, my friend. If you go through pilots, you'll get a new story every week that is basically thrown around on the ATA message board that is basically the same as the message board at Northwest that constantly ignites the MEM IS SHUTTING DOWN FOR NW rumor. My friend's father works for ATA and has mentioned that the charter service is great (and yes, i can imagine the figures they make); however, it is NOWHERE near the profit level that ATA had while having a commercial service running at the same time.

Nice insight NB. I can appreciate a good conversation. Their charter service (ATA) is flying troops back and forth to Iraq and you know that has got to be GOOD money! LOL!!! I wouldn't do it for pennies on the dollar. I'll tell ya that.

NWA, is in a great position I think. But I haven't heard anything about the Southwest rumors and regional jets. That would undercut their corporate focus which is with the 737's. If they do anything, they will trim flights at certain markets, not reduce the size of their jets. That would most likely be the LAST thing they would do. I know they are taking delivery of 737's on a monthly basis now. I can't see that stopping for fuel cost when the 737's they are getting is some of the most fuel efficient jets flying today. And lets face it. Out of 85 operations a day here at Nashville, over 95% of their flights into and out of here are booked solid. If anything, they may go to larger jets like the 737-800 and 900 in the future for routes. One that comes to mind would be the Nashville to Las Vegas flights. Those sell out quick everytime. They currently fly a 737-700 on that route each day.


I don't see how having hubs in the north is really a concern. NY is a hub, so is Chicago and Toronto. They seems to get by just fine with the snow and all of the winter.

Edited by Lexy, 16 July 2006 - 07:51 PM.

[Lexy]

Special day today at the airport. We (our group) witnessed three specialty jets from Southwest.

Here they are.

Spirit of Kitty Hawk.


Orca One


Triple Crown One


What a day! Not to mention we had a "2 alarm" emergency landing with a Southwest and a bomb scare on Orca One! WOW!

Edited by Lexy, 16 July 2006 - 07:49 PM.

[northernbizzkit1]

Lexy, on Jul 16 2006, 07:48 PM, said:

Nice insight NB. I can appreciate a good conversation. Their charter service (ATA) is flying troops back and forth to Iraq and you know that has got to be GOOD money! LOL!!! I wouldn't do it for pennies on the dollar. I'll tell ya that.

NWA, is in a great position I think. But I haven't heard anything about the Southwest rumors and regional jets. That would undercut their corporate focus which is with the 737's. If they do anything, they will trim flights at certain markets, not reduce the size of their jets. That would most likely be the LAST thing they would do. I know they are taking delivery of 737's on a monthly basis now. I can't see that stopping for fuel cost when the 737's they are getting is some of the most fuel efficient jets flying today. And lets face it. Out of 85 operations a day here at Nashville, over 95% of their flights into and out of here are booked solid. If anything, they may go to larger jets like the 737-800 and 900 in the future for routes. One that comes to mind would be the Nashville to Las Vegas flights. Those sell out quick everytime. They currently fly a 737-700 on that route each day.
I don't see how having hubs in the north is really a concern. NY is a hub, so is Chicago and Toronto. They seems to get by just fine with the snow and all of the winter.

haha...this is fun...
The thing that would make it possible for Southwest to go ahead and add the Embraer-195 to its fleet is the fact that the E-195 and the 737s both use CFM engines as opposed to, say, having 737s and 717s. The points that make me believe Southwest is going to do this is the fact that fuel is over $75 a barrel now and the fact that Southwest has talks this past week with officials at Embraer and even Chinese and Russian airline companies for the possibility of a 100-125 seat fuel efficient plane. All of these factors make me believe the E-195 is it. Furthermore, I find it hard that 95% of all Southwest flights out of BNA are booked solid b/c some of the flights from BNA are actually ones I've heard mentioned as going to the E-195 if it were to happen. It's what makes sense, tho. A 90-95% load factor on an E-195 is a helluva lot better and economical than a 60% load factor on a 737-700.

Yeah, it worked quite well for ATA, but I'm sure that isn't the direction Northwest wants to go. Those Asian routes are coveted!

The whole hub issue is the fact that lake effect snow is a pain in the @$$ for hubs like Chicago and Detroit. Plus, winter is harsh in Minneapolis. Chicago is utter hell to deal with when a blizzard comes through. Even when snow can be plowed, the hour delay causes much longer delays because you have to deal with the insane congestion at O'hare. Delays in general cause a loss in finances for an airline. Yet, look at the airlines with hubs in the North...they all have a significant presence in warmer climates to make up for losses. American may have a big hub at ORD, but there is also one at DFW. Northwest operates MSP and DTW, but MEM also runs. United has ORD, but it also has SFO. Continental has Newark and Cleveland, but there is still Houston. The point is, you need balance. The North may have a greater population (obviously since they have most of the hubs); however, the Southern or Western hubs make it where the winter isn't a total wash for an airline due to delays and cancellations. With the status of today's airlines (particularly Northwest and Delta), it simply isn't feasible to put all of the eggs in one basket and have that basket bring money-losing delays.

And I'm just going to say it...what you have said on skyscraper about the MEM hub is quite offensive. I certainly don't dangle the MEM hub over BNA like you apparently think Memphians do. Most people would probably prefer Southwest; however, let me tell you this...Memphis is NOT a minor hub. It is a major one. It's beyond the capacity that BNA and Raleigh were for AA, so I think we can't throw around that MEM is the luck of the draw for keeping a regional hub. If that were the case, why is service being beefed up and the airport expanding? FedEx makes it where NW is enticed. Furthermore, if MEM was as undeserving or as nasty as you apparently believe, as I'm finding out, then why is it that another airline is looking at making MEM one of its two major hubs(see posts on Victory Airlines)? I'm sorry to end the post on a nasty note, but what you've said about MEM is quite ammusing and nasty. O, and wrong.

[Lexy]

NB, I don't what brought on that little tirade about your airport, but in case you forgot what this thread is originally about. It's the airport here. So if you can't comment on it, leave the thread alone and stop being the way you are. If what I said a month ago offended you, then get over it. I have my opinion and I am entitled to it whether you like it or not. It won't change for anyone. So lets leave it at that. I have my reasons about my opinion and that is fine. Just like you have your for you opinion. I haven't blasted you or anyone else in this thread, so see your way out please. If you think having a airport in Nashville is a joke and the only one in the state should be Memphis, then that is your opinion and you are entitled to it. I am not going to beat you over the head because of it. Show some respect and just end the discussion about MEM right here my friend.

But if you are getting your info about WN from airliners.net's forums, find a real source of info. Try talking to their pilots and other employees of both the airline and the airport. Wait, you can't cause they don't have service in Memphis. I guess you'll have to drive up here for that. Call me when you get here, i'll get you past security.

[northernbizzkit1]

Lexy, on Jul 17 2006, 05:35 PM, said:

NB, I don't what brought on that little tirade about your airport, but in case you forgot what this thread is originally about. It's the airport here. So if you can't comment on it, leave the thread alone and stop being the way you are. If what I said a month ago offended you, then get over it. I have my opinion and I am entitled to it whether you like it or not. It won't change for anyone. So lets leave it at that. I have my reasons about my opinion and that is fine. Just like you have your for you opinion. I haven't blasted you or anyone else in this thread, so see your way out please. If you think having a airport in Nashville is a joke and the only one in the state should be Memphis, then that is your opinion and you are entitled to it. I am not going to beat you over the head because of it. Show some respect and just end the discussion about MEM right here my friend.

But if you are getting your info about WN from airliners.net's forums, find a real source of info. Try talking to their pilots and other employees of both the airline and the airport. Wait, you can't cause they don't have service in Memphis. I guess you'll have to drive up here for that. Call me when you get here, i'll get you past security.

I believe it should be mentioned that my "tirade" was brought about because it's interesting that you keep mentioning how MEM will close. And in case my argument wasn't read correctly, I should mention that I am not one to hold the Memphis airport over Nashville; however, if I wanted to, I would certainly have quite an argument! The only reason I brought MEM into the discussion was after the discussion started turning to how BNA was nearing the MEM pax numbers. I brought in that NW is expanding at MEM, and then it began with the whole "NW is closing or slimming down MEM." I don't get my sources at airliners. net and you shouldn't get yours through pilots or flight crews. The only people at an airline who have any inkling of what is to come are the airline execs. If you believe flight crews and pilots, MEM has been on the verge of shutting down since 1986. Twenty years later, and I think we're still waiting for it to happen! You're entitled to your opinions about MEM and BNA, but keep in mind...MEM isn't as minor as you think it is. It's just quite frustrating to fathom that along with discounting the entire city, some people in Nashville are also going to start discounting the airport here which makes one of the largest economic contributions to this state. I don't think a car plant comes close.

Actually Southwest is being courted and going through stages to get it to begin service at MEM in the next year. However, I still prefer having a legacy carrier with some ammenities. Northwest may not be the best, but it still offers MEM international service beyond Mexican and Canadian destinations that you can drive to if you desired. Forgive my "rant."

[Lexy]

northernbizzkit1, on Jul 17 2006, 05:54 PM, said:

Actually Southwest is being courted and going through stages to get it to begin service at MEM in the next year. However, I still prefer having a legacy carrier with some ammenities. Northwest may not be the best, but it still offers MEM international service beyond Mexican and Canadian destinations that you can drive to if you desired. Forgive my "rant."

No biggie, but your story about the E-195 is partialy true. They were "entertained" by Embraer, but have NOTHING written in stone about it. See, when the A320 was introduced, the CEO of Airbus courted Southwest. He even made a model of a WN Airbus and presented it to Herb Kelleher. To this day, no order has been placed by Southwest for an Embraer or an Airbus. The ystudied it, but found it to be better to maintain their current fleet. All current and future orders are for Boeing 737's. Take is as you may, but that is from very, very credible sources.

[Bears]

I don't think NB was trying to be disrespectful. IMO bringing up MEM was just a part of the progression of the discussion. He was just trying to counter the rumor that NW will pull out. Comparing MEM to BNA isn't supposed to be insulting or disrespectful to either city. I don't know what was said on SSP or SSC (lets not bring it back to light here), which ever skyscraper yall are talking about, but anyone who says Nashville doesn't need an airport is either 1)Bitter or 2)Has never been to Nashville.
Lets say hypothetically NWA did pull out, you would see increased passengers in Tunica, Little Rock and Nashville. So all these airports are influenced by one another. Since I'm not a lurker on Skyscraperpage or skyscrapercity, I have no idea if Memphians truly put Nashville down for having 3 million more passengers a year than Nashville. I'll go make a TN airports thread in the Tennessee forum so we can have comparisons in the pros and cons of all our airports. Hopefully RK won't have to close it.

Edit: ^ Lexy posted his last post while I was typing so I'm not trying to restart an argument thats over but there are a few things that I'd like to put out there.

Edited by Bears, 17 July 2006 - 05:46 PM.

[Lexy]

Not a problem Bears. I totally accept the Memphis discussion in this thread. And welcome it to a degree. But I was sharing what I have heard and some of my opinions on some things. Just as NB was sharing some of his at some points. What was said a month or so ago on SSP needs to stay a month or so ago on SSP. And it should not be brought back up unless you are desiring to start an argument in here. Which I am not.

[northernbizzkit1]

Glad this is resolved...my fault for bringing up SSC...I read it at around 1AM and I'm not myself that late...anywho, about Embraer, I wasn't saying it as a definitive thing...I mentioned it along with the fact that Southwest was in talks this past week with Russian and Chinese manufacturers about creating/purchasing a 100-150 seater aircraft that was fuel efficient. I mentioned that the E-195 was, in my opinion, the best bet if they went in this direction simply b/c engine maintenance on the E-195 is quite similar to the 737 since the two have the same engine type. Take it as you will, but my source that it's actually going to occur in the next two years is quite credible.

[AmandaHugginkiss]

Not trying to highjack the thread but this is in regards to Southwest flying out of Memphis. L. Cox is who is over Memphis International and is considered to be one of the best, has been proactive in trying to court Southwest for 2 decades but they are a little skeptical because of the presence of Northwest Airlines. NWA DOES NOT want a low-cost carrier like Southwest to enter Memphis because of the obvious, money. It has been said that NWA will welcome the competition and will do anything to come out on top, meaning they will attempt to match cost. Soutwest is intrigued by Memphis but only if NWA pulls out. With NWA installing new routes out of Memphis and possible intercontinental flight increase, doesn't sound like they are trying to pull out to me. Again, this was not an attempt to highjack the thread just clarifying the hub situation. My father works for the NWA which is why I know all of this..


Lexy, you never answered my question? Is BNA getting any operation increase? Glad to see BNA getting a facelift (as if it needed it) and when will it be finished?

[Lexy]

Amanda, what you posted about Southwest and Memphis is right on the money to what I have heard. Who knows, only time will tell eh?

Either way with the Embraer as they have a fairly large maintenance facility at the airport here. So IF Southwest was to go with them, it would be a two fold benefit for the airport to some degree.

But the BNA Airport Operations Manager has personally told me that between 90-95% of Southwest flights that arrive and/or leave here are booked solid. I would think that he would know given the fact that he oversees all airline, airplane, and airport operations. Nashville is also a connecting point for Southwest, so that figures into the equation too for booked flights.

[frankliner]

http://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/ar...NESS01/60717010

I don't think I've normally heard of traditional carriers adding flights to compete with Southwest, especially out of non-hub markets. I remember back a few years ago, US Airways had some flights to Tupelo, Little Rock, and some other sort of random places. I thought they might be making us a focus city then they hit a little bump called bankruptcy. Anyhow, good news for Nashville and confusing news for me .

[Lexy]

That is excellent news. It was even a bit secret until very recently. I told you guys things are starting to change out there. Just give it time fellas, give it some time.

[Bears]

AmandaHugginkiss, on Jul 17 2006, 08:31 PM, said:

NWA DOES NOT want a low-cost carrier like Southwest to enter Memphis because of the obvious, money.

Very true. And thats good news for Little Rock and Nashville. NWA has their hands tied with Airtran to Atlanta. NWA has even matched the price with Airtran for flights between the two cities. And now, Tunica comes into the picture but that flight is $10 cheaper+parking fees. If SWA does enter the market, I think it'll be Nashville to Tunica. Something you notice about SWA is that they seem to go to secondary airports like Midway, Love Field, LaGuardia, Hobby, and Ft. Lauderdale. They don't even service Atlanta (possibly because of Delta).

What upgrades is BNA getting?

Edited by Bears, 17 July 2006 - 07:37 PM.

[Lexy]

Bears, on Jul 17 2006, 08:35 PM, said:

What upgrades is BNA getting?

You are right. WN tends to go to secondary airports in most cases, but in some they go straight to the core. Like at Phoenix and LAX, etc. They don't fly out of Atlanta due to Delta and all the other carriers that fly out of there. It wouldn't benefit them to start up service from there given the delay time, competition, lack of demand due to Airtran and all. Southwest has about a 30 minute turnaround with their jets, and that just wouldn't be the case if they were in Atlanta.

The airport is getting a total renovation of the terminal and runway work. There is an option for a fifth runway. They are adding flights to New York (JetBlue starting service to Nashville), Las Vegas(US Airways), & Denver/ Philly (Southwest). Currently the Southwest flights to Las Vegas are sold out really fast. Maybe with US Airways offereing this non stop up, that route will open up a bit and the demand increases for it even more than it is now.

[titanhog]

NB...no hard feelings towards Memphis and it's airport...but know this...I've lived in both Memphis and Nashville, and I've found that it's hard to have a conversation with a Memphian when the topic of Nashville comes up. Seems that our brothers in Memphis either see us as competition or just outright hate Nashvillians.

By the way...your comment about our "automobile plants", as if that's all we have, is misguided. The Nashville area DOES have 2 automobile plants that employ more than 10,000 people...we're one of the largest book publishing headquarters in the world...we're one of the top 3 music headquarters in the world...one of the largest healthcare centers in the US...and we're about to have the tallest skyscraper outside of New York and Chicago.

Oh...and we're the largest metropolitan area in Tennessee.

[northernbizzkit1]

titanhog, on Jul 17 2006, 10:54 PM, said:

NB...no hard feelings towards Memphis and it's airport...but know this...I've lived in both Memphis and Nashville, and I've found that it's hard to have a conversation with a Memphian when the topic of Nashville comes up. Seems that our brothers in Memphis either see us as competition or just outright hate Nashvillians.

By the way...your comment about our "automobile plants", as if that's all we have, is misguided. The Nashville area DOES have 2 automobile plants that employ more than 10,000 people...we're one of the largest book publishing headquarters in the world...we're one of the top 3 music headquarters in the world...one of the largest healthcare centers in the US...and we're about to have the tallest skyscraper outside of New York and Chicago.

Oh...and we're the largest metropolitan area in Tennessee.

I thought this was settled, but ok...

I really don't know what Memphians you talk to, because about 50-60% of Memphians and residents of the Memphis MSA downright hate Memphis and love Nashville. I see it the other way around. Not all...I'll say it again...NOT ALL NASHVILLIANS HATE MEMPHIS...however, I notice that in my experience, there are more Nashvillians ready to hammer Memphis than there are Memphians ready to do the same to Nashville. As far as airports, I and just about everyone here doesn't really view Nashville as competition. I'm sorry, but that is the way it is. We have the largest cargo airport in the world. It generates $20.7 billion and then on top of that is responsible for 166,000 jobs. I'm just mentioning that right now, for a city that sure loves to claim that it is the number one thing in Tennessee, the economic powerhouse that it is known for (the two car factories that "employ more than 10,000 people") certainly pales in comparison to the second-largest MSA in the state.

As far as music, I'd check out Memphis...in case you haven't noticed, several labels are relocating to Memphis along with the film industry. Memphis is also one of the largest medical centers in the US and continues to grow with the biotech field. Also, I really wouldn't use a skyscraper as something of merit for a city. Memphis is going in a different route than up...it's going for street level appeal that most on the UP forums agree is more important than a big tower rising up. Cities that are much more important than New York and Chicago have less impressive skylines but much more economic importance.

Ah, and if Memphis took the Nashville route and tacked on the entire region it is situated in to its MSA, Memphis would have the largest MSA in the state...but I guess we'll have to just settle for two of the fastest growing counties in the nation.

Edited by northernbizzkit1, 17 July 2006 - 10:36 PM.

[frankliner]

northernbizzkit1, on Jul 17 2006, 10:22 PM, said:

I thought this was settled, but ok...

I really don't know what Memphians you talk to, because about 50-60% of Memphians and residents of the Memphis MSA downright hate Memphis and love Nashville. I see it the other way around. Not all...I'll say it again...NOT ALL NASHVILLIANS HATE MEMPHIS...however, I notice that in my experience, there are more Nashvillians ready to hammer Memphis than there are Memphians ready to do the same to Nashville. As far as airports, I and just about everyone here doesn't really view Nashville as competition. I'm sorry, but that is the way it is. We have the largest cargo airport in the world. It generates $20.7 billion coming from the Memphis MSA and then on top of that is responsible for 166,000 jobs. I'm just mentioning that right now, for a city that sure loves to claim that it is the number one thing in Tennessee, the economic powerhouse that it is known for (the two car factories that "employ more than 10,000 people") certainly pales in comparison to the second-largest MSA in the state.

As far as music, I'd check out Memphis...in case you haven't noticed, several labels are relocating to Memphis along with the film industry. Memphis is also one of the largest medical centers in the US and continues to grow with the biotech field. Also, I really wouldn't use a skyscraper as something of merit for a city. Memphis is going in a different route than up...it's going for street level appeal that most on the UP forums agree is more important than a big tower rising up. Cities that are much more important than New York and Chicago have less impressive skylines but much more economic importance.

Ah, and if Memphis took the Nashville route and tacked on the entire region it is situated in to its MSA, Memphis would have the largest MSA in the state...but I guess we'll have to just settle for two of the fastest growing counties in the nation.

I'll start by saying that I was born in Memphis (Methodist hospital). Half of my family still lives there and they are part of the "50-60%" that doesn't particularly like it. Just food for thought, but if you contend that over half of your MSA hates the MSA that they live in, I think there might be something very wrong there.

[jice]

Can't we all just get along??? I don't know why this has to turn into a Nashville vs Memphis argument. We are talking about two great cities that are both, obviously, getting even greater as we speak.... and the best part of all... they are both in the state of Tennessee! The tremendous growth in this state will be beneficial to all... whether it takes place in West, Middle, or East. I say we should all be happy for one another... instead of fighting amongst ourselves.

[cheeriokid61]

I agree. I love Nashville. I love Memphis. I love Franklin. I love Tennessee! It's a great state with great cities, each having the goods and bads. Nashville has cars. Memphis has planes. Nashville has health care. Memphis has biotech. Nashville has music. And, oh wait, so does Memphis! They're both great cities who are getting better, and still have a lot more they can accomplish. Isn't that something we can agree on?

Oh, and by the way. I posted a reply in a thread about America's friendliest city, and trying not to be a homer (I should have.) I thought, what other city could I say that would kind of relate to where I live? And after about a half a second of thinking, I said Memphis. I was wondering, I've never been there (I need to.), and I really don't know if people are friendly. I assume they are, but don't know. Are y'all friendly?