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Belk at Phipps?!?


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Actually Northpark Center has been in Dallas for a long long time. northpark I think around the time lenox was built (before or after) In my opinion dallas is more mature (retail wise) than atlanta, with at least three nieman marcus locations (downtown, northpark, willow bend, etc.), two nordstroms, one saks (the galleria not to be mistaken with the even more upscale houston galleria) and an actual flagship barneys plus the exclusive Highland Park Village which feaatures many stores not presently in Atlanta i.e prada, chanel, escada etc. Dallas i heard is the U.S. #1 city with the highest per capita of millionaires and of shopping centers. It is only until recently that northpark expanded adding a second level and a new nordstrom plus its wing. This now makes northpark the largest shopping center in dallas outsizing the galleria which is north of npc close to Plano. Its quite nice (went in April, barney's was still not open). I love lenox/phipps but this one was special. Barneys moved into northpark after lord and taylor left, however with barneys moving into smaller locations the old lord and taylor was split in half with the remaining side becoming a furniture store ( i think). Supposedly the Dallas Barneys is the third largest outside NY #1 and Beverly Hills #2, i thought Chicago was bigger. Hopefully and if barneys came to atl, the parisians location at phipps would be too big...probably would be reduced like lord and taylor at northpark.

Changing the subject, Belk at phipps would just be like Macys at Lenox. An affordable luxury department store that serves to residents of the area plus the many not as wealthy but paying visitors/tourists (20-40% of lenox/phipps customers) I'm over it, its not a big deal as if the salvation army was taking over parisians at phipps-

Sorry, but Dallas is NOT a more mature market than Atlanta - they are almost identical, with slight differences. The only reason Dallas has 3 Niemans is because it's their hometown. They are very close to adding a second location here, and are presently expanding Lenox by 55,000 sq. ft. Just so you know, Atlanta has one of the first Saks in the south (opened in the 60's), and it's one of the strongest performers in the chain. Atlanta has 3 Nordstroms, 2 Bloomingdales (Lenox is the 4th largest in the chain), the first Barney's Co-op in the south, Barney's is scouting for a stand-alone full line store, and the Macy's at Lenox is the flagship for it's division and is a whopping 350,000+ sq. ft. (the men's store alone is over 50,000 sq. ft.).

I honestly don't see any comparison to Belks at Phipps with Macy's at Lenox. Belks at Phipps will not work, period. If Simon has to buy out the lease, so be it. A good friend is the manager of a store at Phipps, and he said at a very recent tenants meeting that the overall feeling of the store managers when presented with the Belks news was that they were all pretty much appalled. It is viewed locally as very much a step down.

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Sorry, but Dallas is NOT a more mature market than Atlanta - they are almost identical, with slight differences. The only reason Dallas has 3 Niemans is because it's their hometown. They are very close to adding a second location here, and are presently expanding Lenox by 55,000 sq. ft. Just so you know, Atlanta has one of the first Saks in the south (opened in the 60's), and it's one of the strongest performers in the chain. Atlanta has 3 Nordstroms, 2 Bloomingdales (Lenox is the 4th largest in the chain), the first Barney's Co-op in the south, Barney's is scouting for a stand-alone full line store, and the Macy's at Lenox is the flagship for it's division and is a whopping 350,000+ sq. ft. (the men's store alone is over 50,000 sq. ft.).

I honestly don't see any comparison to Belks at Phipps with Macy's at Lenox. Belks at Phipps will not work, period. If Simon has to buy out the lease, so be it. A good friend is the manager of a store at Phipps, and he said at a very recent tenants meeting that the overall feeling of the store managers when presented with the Belks news was that they were all pretty much appalled. It is viewed locally as very much a step down.

Sorry for the misunderstanding, but my comment was completely based on my opinion. I too live in the Atlanta area and i know of its mix in department stores. What I mean to say is that atlanta isn't as developed as dallas, but it is as ready or "mature" as dallas. Dallas like I said has many stores not found in Atlanta (michael kors, puma, villebrequin, zara, paul frank, bottega veneta, ted baker, diesel, ch carolina herrera, miss sixty, emporia armani, original penguin, etc. even a prototype "upscale" wal-mart in plano") But that doesn't mean atl cannot support or attract these retailers. Atlanta does have some that dallas doesn't (bloomingdales, mark shale, barneys co-op, although the real thing i prefer, and sisley) but the list is relatively shorter. Hopefully terminus can attract more into buckhead. Going to Northpark in april from ATLANTA was just a new experience. The center is impressive, no doubt, with great simple, but modern architecture and real art, the place looks more like a museum (plus no kiosks!).

Even less upscale Sears manages to fit into more upscale locations such as south coast plaza in L.A. and latin america's most prestigius shopping center; Centro Commercial Santa Fe and it hasn't shown signs of weakness or departure. What makes Belk any different? Saying it will fail is still only a prediction not a fact. If Affluent shoppers and tenant employees tolerate an environment (the food court) which sells cheap, odor releasing, unhealthy fast food, why is a department store that is trying to reach out to their demographics being seen as an insult to the shopping experience. I personally do not see the difference in buying designer cologne and cashmere sweaters at Belk or Barney's, except that one offers more and their staff is selective in attending customers.

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I'm not "disregarding facts to bolster sentimentality"- the 10% margin of error can go the other way, resulting in Parisian sales per square foot to be $30 (over 20%) higher than Belk's, and diluting a brand's clear image has been a problem faced by many companies that have offered both high-end and low-end products at the same time. And as a recent article on the Federated/May merger points out:

"'The big challenge is to hold on to the local loyalty factor while changing the name and changing the format to achieve success nationwide,' said Janet Hoffman, managing partner of the North American retail division of Accenture, a consulting firm.

"'It's the lack of pizazz that has hurt department stores,' Hoffman noted. Yet, she added, the comfort of having a local store has enabled 'department stores to hang on to a thread.'"

These quotes are about Federated's integration of various nameplates but also are valid for Belk.

You can try to fight this with me six ways to Sunday, mallguy, but Parisian was going to die one way or another, just as May Company was eventually going to fade away.

It didn't matter how local the name was, consumers voted with their feet and wallets and put a multitude of chains, local and otherwise, out of business in favor of the cheap and bland predictability of national discount chains. Parisian is a victim of this shift, and it wasn't fighting particurally hard to turn tides in its favor.

See, most people say that they want this local, unique shooping experience, and whine and moan about what was, but when you follow them back shopping, they're at the outlets and the big boxes stacking up on over-marketed faux-luxury brands that have no real value or quality.

What you're missing in this discussion is that even if we go for your distortion of the 10% factor, Parisian's numbers are still about half of Sears, Macy's, Wal-Mart, Nordstrom and Saks Fifth Avenue. The only major department store companies Parisian beat sales-wise are Belk and JCPenney (barely) and Lord & Taylor. The formers have overall sales volume and buying power on their sides to increase their numbers in the future. The latter will be dead in five years, just like a standalone Parisian would have been, because they are both stores with limited appeal, flattening sales potential, and most importantly, they're stores that don't stand for anything meaningful to consumers anymore.

I've made my peace with the Federated-May merger, and you need to make your peace with the Parisian purchase. We don't know if either of them will work in the long run, but I know that dragging around the bones of retail past won't make the difference in the long run.

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We're not trying to fight here; you provide some very valuable information on the retail scene, and so I view this as a way for each of us to become fully informed on retail developments, which I find really interesting.

As my money, as an investor, isn't at stake in the Parisian buyout I've "made my peace" with it but am just pointing out that Belk is going against the overwhelming weight of business experience: that brands need to present clear images, and companies of every type have different brands that are targeted to different types of consumers:

Hotel chains: Marriott has JW Marriott (upscale), Marriott (for business travelers), Courtyard (nice but not full-service), Fairfield Inn (more price-sensitive), etc.

Airlines: United has mainline United (typical multi-class flights), Ted (cheap flights to leisure destinations, no first class), p.s. (high-end transcons, for business travelers)

Retailers: Gap has Banana Republic (upscale), Gap (moderate) and Old Navy (inexpensive)

I could go on and on.

For Parisian: it wasn't a dying chain; it wasn't doing as well as Nordstrom but was doing generally as well as other upper-mid tier department store chains, and better than the chain that bought it; if any retailer was "dying", based solely on sales per square foot, it'd thus be Belk. I saw this past week that Federated's sales per square foot, including both Macy's and Bloomingdale's, and even without May stores, are under $200 (I'll try to dig up the exact info), and with Parisian's and Belk's ranging from $145ish for Belk and $155ish for Parisian, it was doing OK. Parisian simply got sold, and unfortunately its acquiror will rebrand its stores, even though there were other potential investors who wanted to buy the chain whole and run it as Parisian.

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We're not trying to fight here; you provide some very valuable information on the retail scene, and so I view this as a way for each of us to become fully informed on retail developments, which I find really interesting.

As my money, as an investor, isn't at stake in the Parisian buyout I've "made my peace" with it but am just pointing out that Belk is going against the overwhelming weight of business experience: that brands need to present clear images, and companies of every type have different brands that are targeted to different types of consumers:

Hotel chains: Marriott has JW Marriott (upscale), Marriott (for business travelers), Courtyard (nice but not full-service), Fairfield Inn (more price-sensitive), etc.

Airlines: United has mainline United (typical multi-class flights), Ted (cheap flights to leisure destinations, no first class), p.s. (high-end transcons, for business travelers)

Retailers: Gap has Banana Republic (upscale), Gap (moderate) and Old Navy (inexpensive)

I could go on and on.

For Parisian: it wasn't a dying chain; it wasn't doing as well as Nordstrom but was doing generally as well as other upper-mid tier department store chains, and better than the chain that bought it; if any retailer was "dying", based solely on sales per square foot, it'd thus be Belk. I saw this past week that Federated's sales per square foot, including both Macy's and Bloomingdale's, and even without May stores, are under $200 (I'll try to dig up the exact info), and with Parisian's and Belk's ranging from $145ish for Belk and $155ish for Parisian, it was doing OK. Parisian simply got sold, and unfortunately its acquiror will rebrand its stores, even though there were other potential investors who wanted to buy the chain whole and run it as Parisian.

Come on mallguy, it's sour grapes and you know it! I've known you long enough through this forum to know when you're making a rational argument or not. You just don't like Belk, while you love Parisian, and you're using the purported bad image of Belk mentioned by other posters to bolster your argument because you're upset your favorite store is closing down.

Belk's image is not muddled, with or without Parisian. Belk is a mid-priced department store chain. Maybe I should type this again. Belk is a mid-priced department store chain. Belk stores reflect the markets they operate in. If it's a small town, they're operating smaller stores with more limited selection. In larger cities, they operate larger, more sophisticated stores. JCPenney and Sears operate in the same manner, yet you're not confused about them

Belk is not fooling anybody, nobody's confused, and they're making enough money depite their sales figures to grow and prosper as an independent company.

Parisian was a mid-priced department store chain. No matter how you slice it, they were in the same league as Belk, just like Lord & Taylor, Dilllard's and Macy's are. You can dither on the details for the rest of our natural lives, but they represent basically the same thing to the average consumer. All of them have their issues, and none of them can really claim to be upscale in a Nordstrom/Saks/Neiman-Marcus way. None of them.

I'm glad you brought up the Gap branding, because it illustrates my point further about why Parisian doesn't need to be a seperate brand within Belk.

Ever wonder why there aren't as many Gap stores as there used to be? Because Gap diluted its brand power with too many similar divisions. Old Navy killed sales at Gap's core stores because the concepts were too similar. When the economy went south, people started judging on price, and when you could get basically the same stuff for less at Old Navy, Gap suffered.

The one angle Gap's core stores could have capitalized on was the "wear to work" market, which they promptly chopped off their main stores by ramping up Banana Republic, wich offered a more spohisticated product for not much difference in price.

Hotels and airlines are not department stores, mallguy. The travel industry has notoriously low brand loyalty, but a number of large conglomerates. The brands themselves are meaningless because they basically all do the same thing without much distinction. The Marriott chains will change the lobbies somewhat between divisons, or the mattreses, but it's all still Marriott. Same thing with airlines.

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Well, sure, I'm bummed that Parisian is becoming Belk, because having grown up with Belk and then having also shopped at Parisian plenty of times, especially for a few years, I consider Parisian a nicer store than Belk. Similarly, when I was a kid, the local stores were Belk and Ivey's, which was swallowed by Dillard's. Ivey's was generally considered a nicer store than Belk; Parisian is nicer than Ivey's was, so I'd think that people who shop a decent amount would consider Parisian to be a more upscale store as well, and this is backed up by others' views and by Saks Inc.'s marketing and investor communications; just look at the descriptions of Parisian in its annual reports; it's generally described as a specialty department store aimed at upper-income customers in larger markets, while Saks' former mid-tier department store chains weren't. If only other competing investors had bought Parisian, the chain would survive and this discussion wouldn't be taking place.

I also travel constantly and fly places for business a few times a week. By no means would I consider a basic yet nice Courtyard by Marriott to be remotely the same as a luxurious JW Marriott, and by no means would I consider all-coach Ted (no upgrade! no free vodka and tonic when I board! no B777 plane!) to be like mainline United, and my co-workers who travel a lot less than I do have expressed the same views, without me bringing up the subject. The travel industry is different than retail, but in both, companies have succeeded in differentiating different levels of quality and service for products by offering different brand names.

And Federated might be having some troubles from a nameplate change:

http://www.plainvanillashell.com/article.asp?ID=6676

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I don't know if either Federated or Belk will have luck rebranding, but I do know that the enemy isn't Macy's for killing Field's or Belk for discontinuing Parisian. People talk a lot of smack about locality, then run to the big boes or the boutiques. It's the whole upmarket and discount shopping industry that's the threat, which is echoed in the link you posted:

To be sure, consumers are renowned for saying one thing and doing another. And the appeal of department stores as shopping destinations has been waning for years, overshadowed by the ascent of specialty stores and big-box discount chains.
We're not getting anywhere by trading "yes they will" or "no they won't" over a half-dozen pages when we both know that the bigger threat to the department store is outside their doors and across the streets. That's what's eroding market share, and even doofuses (my opinion) like Terry Lundgren can see it:

"One of the central issues is how to take advantage of a national scale and stay relevant to the local customer," Lundgren told a July luncheon gathering of North Michigan Avenue retailers. "We're trying to be locally responsible within a national umbrella."

Lundgren is betting he can reinvent the U.S. department store by creating one national brand, streamlining advertising and beefing up high-margin house brands such as INC and Alfani that shoppers can't find elsewhere.

He's not exactly talking voodoo here, it makes a lot of sense. It's just crazy enough to work at Federated, and at Belk. Even if it falls flat, they can alwys revert back to the old names.

Your point is well taken about seperating brands based on quality, but mallguy, despite whatever hyperbole Saks threw into their annual reports, Parisian was nothing more than a Southern-style Lord & Taylor at best, and tyically was equivilent to Belk.

And Ivey's no longer exists because it stayed stagnant and conservative, losing ground to Belk over the last twenty years of its life by resting on the past legacies. Believe you me, I took that closing hard, but it's just business. If you don't evolve, you lose.

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I am happy to agree with you that Parisian and Lord and Taylor were pretty equal but I'm sorry I do not believe that Belk and Parisian are equal. A handful of nice Belk Stores that are in their own home market(s) do not position it well in the minds of consumers who live outside of the Carolinas - which is the real issue at hand here.

If Belk trades apples for apples then all will be fine. I actually wish them luck during this process. I also hope they truly do study the markets they are going into. My words of advice are: Aim High, overkill is easier to overcome than letdown.

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I am happy to agree with you that Parisian and Lord and Taylor were pretty equal but I'm sorry I do not believe that Belk and Parisian are equal. A handful of nice Belk Stores that are in their own home market(s) do not position it well in the minds of consumers who live outside of the Carolinas - which is the real issue at hand here.

If Belk trades apples for apples then all will be fine. I actually wish them luck during this process. I also hope they truly do study the markets they are going into. My words of advice are: Aim High, overkill is easier to overcome than letdown.

I'm in Kennesaw, GA for a couple of weeks on business. I went to a Parisians for the first time ever yesterday (after all of the board chatter). Reminded me of a typical Belks in the Raleigh/Durham area malls. Although, Belks Southpoint Mall's aesthetics seemed nicer than the Parisians at Kennesaw Mall (Probably has to do with the fact that Southpoint Mall overall is nicer than the Kennesaw mall in general). Again, I'm not a HUGE shopper as I don't mean to slight anyone's opinion. Lord & Taylor never really impressed me, at the least some of the one's I frequented in the DC area. Now, Neiman Marcus, that's another story altogether.

Belk is one of the few mid-scale stores that carries Name Brand Big & Tall clothes (Southpoint Mall in Durham) and has a dedicated section (1x, 2x, etc). I asked the guy in the Parisians about 1x, 2x shirts and he said there are some here and there but not many, so that was dissapointing. Although, I can wear XL, I enjoy the looser fit.

I don't think Belk's management needs to do anything but be Belk (I have this sneaky suspicion they know more about consumer markets than any of us on this urban discussion board). That's why their doing the buying and not vice versa. I don't foresee any negative change, but probably improvement in my opinion.

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I am happy to agree with you that Parisian and Lord and Taylor were pretty equal but I'm sorry I do not believe that Belk and Parisian are equal. A handful of nice Belk Stores that are in their own home market(s) do not position it well in the minds of consumers who live outside of the Carolinas - which is the real issue at hand here.
Every store has good lcations and not-so-good locations, and you can't let the not-so-good locations overshadow the general quality of the chain.

Back when they were in Baltimore at Owings Mills, Saks Ffth Avenue had a horrible store I visited. It didn't dampen my enthusiasm for the chain, because I knew that in other cities, they had better locations. If they had to re-enter the market, I'm sure they would be better than ever.

About the same time, I visited two Altanta-area Macy's; Downtown and Gwinnett Place. Both were very bland and uninviting. Imagine if I swore them off without considering the New York and San Francisco stores. Iwould have missed out on some great shopping.

The enthusiasm for any chain dies off when you leave the core markets and they don't try as hard. Hopefully Belk will reverse this trend and win shoppers over.

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[side note] I promised myself that I was not going to comment on this matter anymore. This...I hope....will be the last time.[end side note]

I think in all the chatter that has occured here, one main point....the one that starts the topic has been forgotten. Noone...well maybe some...doubt that Belk is a good midbrow department store. I'm sure it will be well recieved in midbrow shopping centers. The issue initially for me wasn't that Parisian was better than Belk. Quite honestly I was never a Parisian shopper although I have been to one or two here and there. Parisian should have never landed at Phipps Plaza. It was not well recieved when it came.....and quite honestly I don't think Belk will be either.

Perhaps Buckhead is not Beverly Hills but Buckhead definitely has one of the largest markets in the country. Local people aren't the only ones shopping at Phipps. I don't care what city chimes in talking about "well our city gets lots of tourist shoppers. In the southeast, unless it's Miami, New Orleans (pre Katrina) or Orlando, most cannot match Atlanta's number of tourist. Buckhead is a destination. Buckhead deserves destination shopping. Parisians did not fit the bill and definitely Belk will not.

For the locals, having one exclusive mall is not going to curtail your shopping experience. There are over 15 "real" malls in metro Atlanta. Many are within 10 miles of each other. Belks at Northlake, Mall of Georgia, Town Center, Arbor Place, Stonecrest and Gwinnett Place Malls are okay...I suppose. I will never think it's okay for Belks to be at Phipps. If it happens then so be it. Shoppers will vote with their dollars. I also think that it's a step down for NorthPoint Mall. They have lost some of their steam in the last few years. I'm really surprised at this location. Perhaps the pull of Perimeter Mall is too great for high end retail at Northpoint. That's another topic for another day though.

BTW, does Belk ever advertise? Atlanta is a crowded retail market. I can't see how them not advertising is good for business.

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Celeste, that was my bad for mentioning Beverly Hills. It may be that Beverly Hills is not so hoity-toity after all. According to Wikipedia:

Beverly Hills is not as uniformly wealthy as Hollywood portrays it. Although some of the largest homes in Los Angeles County lie within its city limits, these homes make up just 10% of the city. The remaining homes include small duplex rental units and detached homes with less than 3,000 square feet. There are areas within Los Angeles County that are more uniformly wealthy and have a higher household median income than Beverly Hills. The city's average household income, just over $71,000, is only $18,000 higher than the county average.
On the other hand, they say this about Buckhead:

Buckhead is one of Atlanta's most important business districts, and includes Atlanta's wealthiest neighborhoods, with the Georgia Governor's Mansion, a part-time residence of Elton John, and the Atlanta History Center, a museum. Buckhead was also the home of golfing legned Robert Tyre (Bobby) Jones until his death in 1971. Although there are some moderately priced homes in the area, a majority of the homes and condos start around the $500,000 mark and extend well beyond $10,000,000. Buckhead is also an entertainment and shopping mecca, including Lenox Square Mall, Phipps Plaza, two of the most sought after shopping destinations in the Southeast. Lenox is notable for its size and many prestigious retailers, including a J.W. Marriott Hotel, while its cross-street sister and friendly rival, Phipps Plaza, is nationally known as one of the most upscale shopping centers in the United States. There are several other luxury hotels in the area, as well as somewhat more modest lodgings. Many restaurants, bars, and nightclubs are to be found in the neighborhood also. Local residents, with some justification, often call Buckhead the "Beverly Hills of the South." Robb Report magazine has ranked Buckhead one of the USA's 10 "Top Affluent Communities" for "some of the most beautiful mansions, best shopping and finest restaurants in the southeastern United States" between Old Bel-Air and Upper East Side Manhattan.
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I missed your post Andrea. Interesting to note.

I can just see all the people living in those recently announced $3 to 6 million dollar condos skipping all the way to Belk at Phipps. There has to like 300 plus condos going up now from $1,000,000 plus in a one mile radius of Phipps. The brownbag has been replaced by the big bag with B. I just don't see it....but it could just be me.

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Since Charlotte-based Belk is in the process of buying Parisian's, what will they do with the Phipps Plaza location? The only decent Belk stores are in Charlotte, Greensboro and Raleigh (they call them "A" stores). Will the company do an "A" store at Phipps, or sell it off to some other retailer?
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The Parisian at Arbor Place Mall in Douglasville is set to become a Belk soon. I was talking to my mother (who knows a lot more about Parisian's and Belk's than I do) and she said Parisian's everywhere were changing.

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