Traffic Congestion and Highway Construction

[15895]

I absolutely believe it will. In 25-30 years Ballantyne will be much more massive and there will also be about two, maybe three, more smaller separated skylines around the city as well. Charlotte repeats constantly how it doesn't want to become Atlanta but we are doing nearly the same things. Granted, we have the luxury of having a case study of how not to do certain things just down the road. We still do much of the same face-palming stuff, but at least it feels like we think it through just a little more than they did....sometimes.

I'm very skeptical of that. I see low density sprawl, but no Buckheads.

[archiham04]

I would honestly not have imagined that the Charlotte loop has more land area. Looking on certain maps the 'sphere' inside 285 looks huge, but I'm sure that's  for Georgia's having smaller counties geographically.

I was surprised.

[cowboy_wilhelm]

485 instead of 85 is 0.8 miles longer:

 

Wow, I'm surprised there's that little difference. It's ~2 miles going northbound due to the ramps. I'll have to try it out next time I go through there.

[jednc]

Anyone boneheaded enough to go the long way around from Matthews to NC-16 coming from the north to get uptown should have their license taken away from them. There are times when taking the outer belt makes sense and times when it does not. That doesn't set it apart in any way from any other road out there. I wouldn't head across NC-73 to Concord to get on I-85 to get downtown, but if I did it wouldn't be I-85's fault for existing (If only they hadn't built I-85, people wouldn't be driving all those extra miles to use it). This new segment of 485 will save a lot of people a lot of time as they navigate the region. We all can't live downtown and ride our bikes. Some of us don't even want to. There can be nodes around the region that serve as hubs for people to live. work and play. The trick is having those uses mixed together. What we should avoid is the old method of having some areas serve as residential while others serve as employment centers while still others serve as entertainment districts. That method forces everyone to use a car to cover those distances and to drive a lot of miles. Because we need to switch to more mixed use development doesn't mean we should not have roads that connect the different areas of our region and it doesn't mean we shouldn't be willing to build those roads the same way we've built roads for decades.

 

(At this point I ramble onto another topic...) The idea that some of us "deserve" toll roads because we ARE the problem is ridiculous. Our society is made up of different living and working options. There are costs associated with EACH. To say that some people's choices aren't worth supporting with tax dollars while some are is a non-starter for me. For me personally, I live in a county where I pay more taxes (Meck) and work in a county where I make less (not Meck). I could do just to opposite, but I like the amenities and infrastructure that comes with living in Meck Co, and I'm willing to pay more to support them. I do not, however, think that people who do just the opposite should be punished financially. Rant is over...

[allthingsplanes]

^ AMEN!

[Guest]

Goodbye Dixie-Berry Hill, it was a nice little forest while it lasted.

[Spartan]

If you're feeling like a road geek, check out the 2016-2025 Transportation Improvement Program from CRTPO. This is the list of state-funded road projects and some bike/ped/greenway projects that will be worked on over the next 10 years in Mecklenburg, Iredell, and Union Counties. It's now available for public comments.

 

http://crtpo.org/plans-programs/transporation-improvement-program

[kermit]

^ Glad to see NCDOT continue to be willing to F'up University City (widening NC 49 to 6 lanes right in front of campus). I drive through there every day and traffic is awful, but this is just throwing money away. More pavement in U City won't do anything to improve traffic and will make it much harder to be a biker or ped.

 

• The Statesville to Rock Hill multimodal corridor study sounds interesting.

 

• I could not find the Norfolk Southern Bulk Load facility (in the current N Tryon yard) in the list of projects (but its on the map). Anyone know anything about this? NM, I just saw the non-highway project list.

 

 

Construct a new bulk transfer facility for Norfok Southern on the site of the old Charlotte intermodal facility

 

Interesting. While this was dead space (wedged between the freight yard and the new CATS facility) it really could be an impediment to redevelopment of the area (I am imagining more truck traffic, dust and noise)

 

• Money for new fareboxes for the CATS fleet
• Bike lanes for Matheson from N Tryon to Parkwood (25th street station)
• $2.2 million for Little Sugar Creek Greenway from Pineville to Ramblewood Ln. (allocated for 2020?)

All of the three items above are things I thought the city/CATS was going to pay for. Is this a windfall for the city or just me misunderstanding the nature of how these projects are financed?

Edited July 2, 2015 by kermit

[cltbwimob]

One of the things about the long range plans that kills me is the fact that NCDOT is gearing up for widening I-77 south of uptown.  While it is a madhouse, I think there are much better ways to mitigate the traffic without having to do a massive retrofit that will likely cost much more than the billion they currently have estimated.

 

Instead of engaging in some complicated widening project, they could use alternate approaches such as:

-Extending the blue line to Ballantyne to help alleviate some of the traffic from I-485 that dumps onto I-77 and increase train frequencies along the line.

-If need be, extend light rail stations to accommodate 4-car trains.

-Work with Norfolk Southern on securing rights to operate a rush hour commuter rail line between Rock Hill and Uptown.

-Place signs along I-77 that give real-time info on travel times form the SC state line to I-485 and I-77 north like they have scattered around Hampton Roads (see below) in order to encourage through traffic to use I-485.

 

 

 

***Edit-Calgary's LRT system has a max capacity on some lines that approaches 30,000 pax per hour.  That's 14 times the amount a lane of highway can carry.  WTH is NCDOT so insistent on widening this road when there are better solutions out there.

Edited July 2, 2015 by cltbwimob

[kermit]

^agreed! Looks like the state has budgeted $315.3 million for I-77 improvments south of town. That is $315 million that will be, at best, a temporary congestion relief measure. Congestion will be just as bad as it is now after the $315 million is spent. That same money would buy lots of alternative mobility improvements that really would allow folks to get to work faster.

[Bikeguy]

^ ...and this little nugget.  A multi-use path along a section of Highway 51

 

"NC 51    Widen from four to six lanes including median, and multi-use path. Sardis Road to Monroe Road/E John Street."

[Guest]

It's clear to me that NC is anti-urban, pro-sprawl and is clearly an obstacle for the city. All these highway widenings are going to promote more auto based development away from the city, putting our remaining greenspace in danger. It's a serious waste of money that will burden the city in the following years.

[caterpillar2]

Charlotte is just like any other growing city in the western hemisphere.  It isn't a matter of being "anti-urban", people simply don't enjoy financing something that they may never use. People move to a place that suits their lifestyle.  If they have families, they probably move to the suburbs for the sake of children. It doesn't make them "anti-sprawl."  I agree that the area needs to focus on mass transportation not focus so much on widening highways.  We seem to have some people in the city that have a poor vision of the future.  Many of those that push ideas like inner city rail are those that pay less taxes.  That is a problem.  I feel that the city and state need to just raise our taxes and give us what we need to accommodate our future needs. It doesn't seem like the growth is going to slow down significantly any time soon.

[kermit]

  If they have families, they probably move to the suburbs for the sake of children.

Many of those that push ideas like inner city rail are those that pay less taxes. .

I am not picking on you, I have read enough of your posts to understand your very pro-urban viewpoint. I am merely commenting on these two, often repeated (but no longer useful) paradigms of contemporary American urbanism.

My daughter has been in CMS for 8 grades in intown-districts and magnet schools and we have been very please with the education that was provided. There is nothing about a more suburban lifestyle that would have improved our quality of life. My family is neither an execption nor an outlier. I understand that most American's -believe- you gotta move to the burbs when you have kids but that is simply a result of decades-old biases against urban living.

The idea than urban resident pay less taxes than suburbanites is also a product of 30 year old perspectives of the city. Neighborhoods that were once impoverished are clearly not any longer (e.g. Wilmore, NoDa, Villa Heights) and poverty in the burbs is rising rapidly. Once you take into account the massive taxpayer subsidies that suburbanites consume (road costs, school construction, etc) and its clear that urban communities see a disproportionately low volume of municipal /county / state investment.

Again, I am not pointing a finger at you. I just have a problem with these overused and incorrect stereotypes of urban living.

[Guest]

Living in Savannah for four years showed me how empty the suburbs are and how full of life a great city is. The suburbs in Charlotte have no pedestrian traffic, no where to eat, no where to work, no culture. It's so isolating and to me a very poor learning environment. Charlotte needs more high quality urban spaces. Wiping out more city to build more highway will not accomplish that. At this point, the less cars in this city, the better.

[ah59396]

Living in Savannah for four years showed me how empty the suburbs are and how full of life a great city is. The suburbs in Charlotte have no pedestrian traffic, no where to eat, no where to work, no culture. It's so isolating and to me a very poor learning environment. Charlotte needs more high quality urban spaces. Wiping out more city to build more highway will not accomplish that. At this point, the less cars in this city, the better.

Sorry dude, but the suburbs aren't going anywhere. A large majority of the country in fact still prefers a suburban lifestyle. As long as that's the case, highways are a real priority. The whole country can't just be bike lanes and urban spaces.

[Guest]

I would argue but then I look at Charlotte on google maps and see the like ten blocks of city and then surrounding ten miles of suburbs. We're outnumbered ten to one.

But if we add to the new highways and build the new suburbs, we're looking at a new level of hell.

Edited July 6, 2015 by mazman34340

[ah59396]

I would argue but then I look at Charlotte on google maps and see the like ten blocks of city and then surrounding ten miles of suburbs. We're outnumbered ten to one.

But if we add to the new highways and build the new suburbs, we're looking at a new level of hell.

 

 

Did you have a different expectation?  Charlotte's major growth has occurred in the last 75 years, an era when development was formulated directly around what works best for an automobile.  The "city" or "state" or whoever can't just go out and level everything that isn't urban and force people to move into the city.  I don't want the suburbs to sprawl anymore either, but they will, even with sensible zoning practices and embargo's on annexing.  People are going to do what they want.  And unless we want the flow of goods to completely halt, they have to build infrastructure to support that sprawl.  It's not like every other major city in the US doesn't have freeways and bypasses built everywhere.  This isn't just a Charlotte thing.  I guess my point is, just because we don't like it, doesn't mean it shouldn't be addressed.

[Spartan]

 

^agreed! Looks like the state has budgeted $315.3 million for I-77 improvments south of town. That is $315 million that will be, at best, a temporary congestion relief measure. Congestion will be just as bad as it is now after the $315 million is spent. That same money would buy lots of alternative mobility improvements that really would allow folks to get to work faster.

 

 

I only counted $274 million for I-77 from Brookshire south. More importantly, the money allocated is only for design and right of way, so Construction wouldn't occur until after 2025. Unless the project is accelerated for some reason, we won't see construction funding as an item until the next TIP in 2 years (which will go to 2027). I'm betting the construction cost will top $1 billion to widen it to 10 lanes (aka adding 2 in each direction) and at least 5 years of construction if not significantly longer. Essentially, it could be closer to 2030 when all of the work would be done.

 

I 100% agree that spending this kind of money on roads is ridiculous. For that kind of money we could have a new light rail line down Monroe Road. Or we could build or improve dozens parallel routes to 77 (and 85) which might actually provide some relief from the congestion by giving people more route options while allowing fore greater densities and thus more compact land use patterns.

[RiverwoodCLT]

Rail is a dirty word to some people, because it uses public funds that could be used tp build more highways.

I voted 2 times to support LRT in Charlotte.  If we sit on our hands and not look at a better way to move people, then in a few years we could look like LA traffic.

Edited July 29, 2015 by RiverwoodCLT

[archiham04]

I think we have maxed out our options in Meckenburg and we need to start looking toward some Meck>Gaston or some Meck>Stanley options. I realize that multi county funding would be complicated, but constructing a rail line over under developed areas (especially toward Albemarle) seems to be alot more likely as far as property aquisisitoin goes.  Also there is no road infastructure out there to screw it up... you could shoot a train out there that would be 3x faster commute to Charlotte than any other route.

[kermit]

^ The ACWR would -welcome- commuter rail on its tracks if it came with the public $ necessary to upgrade the tracks to an appropriate speed classification (they wouldn't even need double tracking). Upgrading the existing tracks would probably be in the neighborhood of $1-2 million per mile. So commuter rail to Locust for $80 million ish (plus stations plus rolling stock).

While the ACWR route would be cheap, stations would be poorly located  (ACWR does not quite get to Albemarle) and there just isn't  much demand out that way.

The Locust trains could run through Charlotte to Mt Holly and on to Gastonia (on the P&N) at a similar cost (execpt for the problem of the bridge over the Catawba and about 100 yards of track over Cedar st).

These commuter rail lines would be dirt cheap, but they would have pitiful  ridership due to the nature of the routes. I honestly think the inner section of the P&N (south of I-85) is better suited for streetcar service than commuter rail.

Edited July 30, 2015 by kermit

[archiham04]

you bring up "demand" in Albemarle... I think we need to get away from following demand.  If we follow demand, we are going where people are already commuting right?... Well that area is probably already sprawlsville.  If we wait for "demand" what we are actually doing is waiting until the land use is virtually ruined for walkable development.  I think we should be using rail to CREATE demand.

[kermit]

^ I agree completely. We have to lead development with transit to avoid sprawl.

However when you open up a new transit route that only caters to a handful of passengers when it opens, the bad PR can make it tougher to create transit elsewhere. Sadly there is a cost to cheap, initially mediocre, but eventually great, transit.

[Third Strike]

^ The ACWR would -welcome- commuter rail on its tracks if it came with the public $ necessary to upgrade the tracks to an appropriate speed classification (they wouldn't even need double tracking). Upgrading the existing tracks would probably be in the neighborhood of $1-2 million per mile. So commuter rail to Locust for $80 million ish (plus stations plus rolling stock).

While the ACWR route would be cheap, stations would be poorly located  (ACWR does not quite get to Albemarle) and there just isn't  much demand out that way.

The Locust trains could run through Charlotte to Mt Holly and on to Gastonia (on the P&N) at a similar cost (execpt for the problem of the bridge over the Catawba and about 100 yards of track over Cedar st).

These commuter rail lines would be dirt cheap, but they would have pitiful  ridership due to the nature of the routes. I honestly think the inner section of the P&N (south of I-85) is better suited for streetcar service than commuter rail.

Going beyond a commuter rail, the ACWR route has always been a great alternative to the NCRR, and an even greater candidate for high speed rail. In my fantasy league of mass transit, I would straighten the track between here to Gulf/Sanford, and double track as well. A second HSR line could run between Raleigh and Charlotte, and even at greater speeds than the NCRR route. Though, the NCDOT would have to work with CSX with upgrading their rail line from Sanford to Raleigh. A commuter line could also be utilized in Charlotte, with a stop at the Gateway Station, 36th Street (shared with the BLE), Harris Blvd. (with park and ride), Mint Hill (with park and ride), Midland, Stanfield, and Oakboro. The line doesn't pass through Albemarle, so I think a spur off the ACWR from Oakboro would also be a great idea. Back to the Charlotte/Raleigh Line, I wouldn't mind just one stop in between the two in possibly Troy, since it is located in the Uwharrie National Forest. This could make for a great tourist draw, since it would give people from NC's largest metros access to the park, and a great place to camp on the weekends. That could also help with boosting Troy's/Montgomery County, since they have been declining for awhile now. Sorry for my off-topic rail spiel.