Traffic Congestion and Highway Construction

[kermit]

^ the very long term SEHSR plan is for 220mph rail between Charlotte and Raleigh on the ACWR.

[DEnd]

you bring up "demand" in Albemarle... I think we need to get away from following demand.  If we follow demand, we are going where people are already commuting right?... Well that area is probably already sprawlsville.  If we wait for "demand" what we are actually doing is waiting until the land use is virtually ruined for walkable development.  I think we should be using rail to CREATE demand.

That is basically the successful formula that is used in the only profitable commuter/subway lines in the world. The companies not only own the lines but also the land and buildings surrounding the stations.  The lines create the demand for the buildings, the buildings increase demand for the line.  The two are synergistic. 

[dubone]

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/politics-government/article31594130.html

 

The conservative protestors wanted free government handouts to support their lifestyle, opposed deals with corporations to keep government spending low and capitalist market-based pricing to promote efficiency.    They wanted all lanes to be free and equal and opposed private paid lanes that allow some to get ahead faster than others.     
What next for bizarro conservatives?  Redistributing taxes from wealth counties to poor counties?  

[dcharlotte]

I'm going to Harris Teeter to get some ice for that burn.

[js4life]

While I do understand some of the anger many LKN residents feel, there is some value to the toll lane project. Both the Lakeview & Hambright rd bridges will have direct exit/entrance to the express lanes as well as other improvements to those roads for example.

[Eightane]

I really have trouble wrapping my mind around what the huge push against this was even about. I mean sure, there's precedent for it being uber-hard to convert lanes to free once they're built as tolled, but do they believe the existing GP lanes will disintegrate when they break ground on this? Do they believe it wouldn't take MUCH longer to get new free lanes up there, with no contract nor stipulated source for the money to build? Do they think the new tolls are so exhorbitant as to be too much for lake towns, where the money pretty much has no trouble flowing and I'd bet there's five mansions for every shack or shanty?

I stand by what I've said before to other people, other places. 77 needs to be four lanes at least up to Birkdale, and three at least up to I-40 in Statesville. How this is accomplished shouldn't be so grave a circumstance when the alternative is a gridlock already so bad I don't know how anyone can live there and commute south, and not tear out their hair. If a few dollars per day is too much, sell off a Benz or a Hummer H2. Or, y'know, quit imagining the DOT's made of money when they couldn't even get many projects off the dirt before the incumbents now rerouted the tax flow.

[dubone]

Realistically, if the conservatives hadn't capped the gas tax, the state might have a chance at a budget to expand roads for sprawling growth.   Ironically, with the lower cost of gas itself, people wouldn't even notice much if the gas tax were a lot higher to build more free lanes.  But in a world where the gas tax is shrinking while the population is growing, these toll lanes are the ONLY option.   Then with the other merits of managing the demand to keep the lane moving, you actually move more cars that way.  Market pricing IS the most efficient way to distribute scare resources.    

 

The 20th century model of building infinitely wide freeways to sprawl is a failed public policy, and people had gotten so used to it, they treated it as a foregone conclusion, freeing themselves to buy a house far from their jobs with congested roads because they figure it will eventually be built for them. 

They don't even realize that the wider lanes they think will solve the congestion they hate just leads to move congestion from thousands of others doing exactly what they are.     

If you hate sitting in traffic, don't forget that you are the traffic.  

[southslider]

While I do understand some of the anger many LKN residents feel, there is some value to the toll lane project. Both the Lakeview & Hambright rd bridges will have direct exit/entrance to the express lanes as well as other improvements to those roads for example.

Too bad neither of these special access points saves any time over Exits 23 and 25 to access the Huntersville-Gateway or Northcross Park and Rides.

I don't have a problem with a market solution. I have a problem with the proposed solution not fully serving the market, or maximizing the return. Too much is being wasted on rebuilding I-77 inside of I-485, while not including valuable access points in Huntersville, where congestion actually is for multiple hours everyday. Not only is the private solution ignoring these customers, but also those coming to/from I-85 at that congested interchange.  In other words, the design seals off customers, where both congestion and transit could benefit, or lead to more customers?!

Hopefully, lenders see through the rosy projections (2nd only to an LA expressway chokepoint) and demand a better return. But I fear public dollars will end up being wasted insuring a return for Cintas.

Edited August 20, 2015 by southslider

[js4life]

Too bad neither of these special access points saves any time over Exits 23 and 25 to access the Huntersville-Gateway or Northcross Park and Rides.

I don't have a problem with a market solution. I have a problem with the proposed solution not fully serving the market, or maximizing the return. Too much is being wasted on rebuilding I-77 inside of I-485, while not including valuable access points in Huntersville, where congestion actually is for multiple hours everyday. Not only is the private solution ignoring these customers, but also those coming to/from I-85 at that congested interchange.  In other words, the design seals off customers, where both congestion and transit could benefit, or lead to more customers?!

Hopefully, lenders see through the rosy projections (2nd only to an LA expressway chokepoint) and demand a better return. But I fear public dollars will end up being wasted insuring a return for Cintas.

those are the only two i know of for sure,there will be six or seven total from my understanding, that leaves atleast two more counting the Uptown/Mooresville exit/entrance exits

[southslider]

^But no access within Huntersville, or to/from I-85. Again, no way for customers, including those riding transit, to actually use the toll lanes in the very areas, where congestion is the problem.

http://i77express.com/project-overview/project-map/

Edited August 20, 2015 by southslider

[dcharlotte]

^But no access within Huntersville, or to/from I-85. Again, no way for customers, including those riding transit, to actually use the toll lanes in the very areas, where congestion is the problem.

http://i77express.com/project-overview/project-map/

That is actually a good thing. Providing a bunch of exists within small distances is what created the traffic on I-77 to begin with since everyone goes just one or two exits causing delays. If you're going one exit up you don't mind sitting in the traffic on the interstate because it is just as fast or faster as the smaller local roads that exist within Huntersville because the city never bothered to create a viable north/south alternative (without clogging it with retail). As a result, many people are just fine sitting in that traffic at the expense of the long-range people who are using it as an interstate. This gets the long distance people out of the way and clears the road up for the intended use: long distance travel.

[allthingsplanes]

^ I'm sorry, but you can't possibly be saying that there are too many exits on North 77?  There are 7 exits over the 17 miles from I-85 to exit 30.  The problem is that the entrances to the interstate at both 23 and 25 promote a high volume of traffic entering at one time (ie - when the light turns green).  

I'm continually amazed at the lack of understanding people have for I-77 north traffic.  Yes there are a lot of commuters - in both directions.  But there are a ton of long-distance travelers too.  77 is slammed over the weekends as well, in both directions.  

[southslider]

The funny thing is I will personally benefit from this project.  I work Uptown and don't even live in the MSA.  However, "trekkers" like me are a small minority of overall commuters, and a declining share of younger generations.

Regional transportation funds should largely benefit the transportation needs of the region.  If you think Interstates should benefit long-distance traffic, then it's odd to keep trucks in the congested "free" lanes.

In spite of my personal needs already being met with the project, I'd still like to see a better design that would benefit more customers.  Tolls are the future.  But the fact only one company (and one that has fed off other subsidized failures, like Indiana Skyway), agreed to this design, should be an indication that the current plan is not the best market solution.

[dcharlotte]

 

That is actually a good thing. Providing a bunch of exists within small distances is what created the traffic on I-77 to begin with since everyone goes just one or two exits causing delays. If you're going one exit up you don't mind sitting in the traffic on the interstate because it is just as fast or faster as the smaller local roads that exist within Huntersville because the city never bothered to create a viable north/south alternative (without clogging it with retail). As a result, many people are just fine sitting in that traffic at the expense of the long-range people who are using it as an interstate. This gets the long distance people out of the way and clears the road up for the intended use: long distance travel.

The fix for that is ramp metering or a red light that does not enable new traffic to enter the interstate until the existing traffic is flowing smoothly.

[tozmervo]

...which is currently being studied by NCDOT: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article20496516.html

[15895]

While I do understand some of the anger many LKN residents feel, there is some value to the toll lane project. Both the Lakeview & Hambright rd bridges will have direct exit/entrance to the express lanes as well as other improvements to those roads for example.

 

I can't stand when commuters use Statesville and Old Statesville when 77 is backed up. I always know when there is an accident or just general congestion because it takes me 500 years just to pull out of my apartment or store or anywhere. I find the best route getting out of Huntersville to be Stumptown to ransom to McCoy to Hambright to Kerns to Harris. Commuters never use that route

[AuLukey]

I don't know how much fact-checking was going on in this Op-Ed on Charlotte Agenda, but there is an interesting bit of information pertaining to the toll lanes on northern 77 that I had not previously considered.

I-77 has the highest truck density per mile of any highway in North Carolina, and the toll lanes are being built so that trucks can’t use them.

I have been forced into reverse commuting thanks to my job relocating to Mooresville a few months ago.  Before I actually started driving this way daily, I didn't actually understand the levels of traffic that actually build up between 485 and Langtree.  I never assumed the shear volume of traffic headed in the reverse direction of suburban commuters would be so impactful.  I had noticed that there is an unusually high number of tractor-trailers on 77 in the mornings, but hadn't considered that they are probably, along with merging delays, the biggest contributor to the traffic along 77.  As I said before, there weren't any citations on the editorial, but I feel like it carries up pretty well from what I have witnessed of late.  It's too bad there can't be a freight-priority lane, but I'd assume that's not really economically feasible and would probably never get public support of any kind.

 

Also, "oooo look pretty water" is not a good enough reason to slow down on the interstate!  End rant.

 

[Third Strike]

^ I-81 is considered the busiest trucking route on the East Coast, and I-77 bisects it in Virginia. I'm not surprised by the trucking traffic, since I-81 is the quickest way to the Northeast.

Also, with the controversy over the I-77 toll lanes, most people don't know that this corridor was originally going to be a tolled turnpike between North Carolina, Virginia, and West Virginia, back in 1955:

This was shortly before the creation of the interstate system. Gastonia was the original starting place, and not Charlotte. If this had been constructed and completed before the arrival of the interstate system, I-77 could have been a toll road today (many toll roads prior to the IS were grandfathered in).

[dubone]

There is no way that 77 in NC is the busiest trucking route.  I see far more trucks on 85.  But if that's a fact, then fine.   But so what?   ADDING capacity to a road for cars only does no damage to the trucks in the current free lanes.  

 

Meanwhile, we are effectively blocked from adding transit to this corridor because the railroad expects expansions, so at least if freight growth shifts to the railroad corridor, then we will be better off.  

Edited August 26, 2015 by dubone

[southslider]

The express lanes can't be used by trucks anywhere.  They can't be used by I-85 commuters traveling to/from Uptown.  They can't be used by transit north of I-485 to bypass regularly stopped traffic between Hambright and Sam Furr Roads.  They can't be used by Huntersville commuters (same constraint as transit). They can't be used by carpools without transponders. They can't be used by out-of-state visitors risking added penalties due by mail.

And if you think blocking transit along the NSRR O-Line is shortsighted, why would NCDOT effectively agree to a 50-year block of transit along I-77 as well?

[RiverwoodCLT]

Do the toll roads make a profit?

http://reasonrail.blogspot.com/2011/06/do-toll-roads-make-profit.htmlLooking

10 things you don’t know about the toll lanes planned for I-77 north

http://www.charlotteagenda.com/12520/10-things-you-dont-know-about-the-toll-lanes-planned-for-i-77-north/

I read that Houston has paid off some toll roads 3 times over but they are still paying tolls

  http://abc13.com/archive/8671067/        

Toll road authority doubles as bank for county

  http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Toll-road-authority-doubles-as-bank-for-county-4083949.php

I been on the Pennsylvania Turnpike and it is nothing to write home about.

Edited August 27, 2015 by RiverwoodCLT

[dcharlotte]

That "10 things" article is full of a bunch of half truths and misleading assumptions and flat out wrong conclusions. What a waste of factual information posted to a blog. 

[RiverwoodCLT]

That is the reason I put Houston info in.  The tolls collected in 10 reasons were way off.

[southslider]

But realistically, how will a toll lanes project in the 22nd largest US metro realize revenues anywhere close to the 2nd or 6th (LA or Houston) largest metro areas?

I-77 Express Lanes should at least rival the fairly unused toll lanes (Peach Pass on I-85) in the 9th largest metro (Atlanta).

[dubone]

Why do we care about the profits of the private company?  That is their problem.  If they fold, we keep the lanes.  

 

 

 

I had to laugh at the Top 10 list ending with "Every penny will go to Spain".  All the money they spend up front to build the road goes directly to the local economy, and paying them back with toll revenues to moot, because we have the road and the money spent on construction multiplying in the economy.  But according to other parts in that Top 10 list, and here, it won't make money?      

 

Edited August 29, 2015 by dubone