Downtown Greensboro Developments

[dkst0426]

There should be a Chinese restaurant there too.

Greensboro needs something to cater to those seeking quality Chinese food. I was actually sad to see Imperial Gourmet go.

[cityboi]

LOL there certainly wont be a shortage of performance arts venues in downtown Greensboro. The Community Theatre of Greensboro wants to buy the historic downtown Masonic Temple and turn it into a performance arts center.

http://www.news-record.com/content/2008/08...nto_arts_center

Edited August 14, 2008 by cityboi

[cityboi]

Roy Carroll, developer of the Center Pointe condo tower, owns part of the former North State Chevrolet property which is bound by Edgeworth St, Battleground Ave, Eugene St and Smith Street. The site is adjacent to NewBridge Bank Park and in a meeting Roy Carroll said he has plans for 200 apartment units on the site. This project will include no commercial space but the other part of North Chevrolet property across Smith Street and directly next to the ballpark will likely have commerical and retail space. Roy doesnt own that tract of land. Roy Carroll also mention that he has plans for an office tower on a small piece of land next to Center Pointe facing Center-City Park. This is why Roy decided not to add balconies on the northside of Center Pointe because that side of the building faces the office tower site. There was no mention of start dates for either of those two projects.

Edited August 16, 2008 by cityboi

[DCB]

I REALLY hope the apartments are designed for an urban environment and not simply a crappy "three story colonial style apartment buildings scattered randomly through a parking lot with no street frontage." Another project like CityView would be a massive boon for that area of downtown; but a suburban project would probably kill any chance of the area developing into a nice urban neighborhood like Southside.

[twincity]

Roy Carroll, developer of the Center Pointe condo tower, owns part of the former North State Chevrolet property which is bound by Edgeworth St, Battleground Ave, Eugene St and Smith Street. The site is adjacent to NewBridge Bank Park and in a meeting Roy Carroll said he has plans for 200 apartment units on the site. This project will include no commercial space but the other part of North Chevrolet property across Smith Street and directly next to the ballpark will likely have commerical and retail space. Roy doesnt own that tract of land. Roy Carroll also mention that he has plans for an office tower on a small piece of land next to Center Pointe facing Center-City Park. This is why Roy decided not to add balconies on the northside of Center Pointe because that side of the building faces the office tower site. There was no mention of start dates for either of those two projects.

is this new news? is so whats the source? sounds exciting.

[cityboi]

is this new news? is so whats the source? sounds exciting.

The source is from 99 Blocks downtown magezine. I think it is new because of the fact that Roy Caroll has announced exactly what he has planned for the site near the new ballpark. Everyone knew it would be residential but they didnt know what kind of residential. This is the first time Roy has announced that he plans to have 200 apartments on the site. The news for the office tower next to Center Pointe is new as well. Well all knew that Roy planned to build a second tower next to Center Pointe but everyone assumed it would be another condo tower. This is the first time Roy has mentioned building an office tower next to Center Pointe.

I think the office tower has an excellent chance of happening, afterall Roy Carroll knows the downtown market pretty well now and he has a track record of building a high-rise project in downtown Greensboro unlike other developers who just have lofty visions and have never built a project downtown. Certainly downtown Greensboro is LONG overdue for another office tower. DGI (Downtown Greensboro, INC.) did say back in January through the Triad Business Journal that there would be some big announcements sometime this year and that most of the big projects planned are "office" in nature. Most of these announcements will probabally be put off til next year due to the slump in the economy.

As for Roy Caroll's planned apartment project near the ballpark, hopefully it will be something like CityView Apartments at Southside. As DCB said, a suburban type project would not be good at all. But I think Roy Carroll understands what kind of complex this needs to be. But its great news. It means another 200 residents for downtown Greensboro and they will be located within walking distance to the ballpark. Roy also said he is looking to build a mid-rise to high-rise project on another piece of property that he owns downtown which is across the street from the ballpark on Eugene Street. My guess is that it may be a hotel. Roy Caroll said has a plan to build a hotel in the future but he did not say where. He stated sometime ago that he is very bullish on downtown development and that he always wants to have a project going on downtown. His main focus is on the north end of downtown (north of Market Street) Developement in that part of downtown will likely be more upscale and more contemporary in design unlike the projects in the south end of downtown which have alot of brick and look more historic. ALl of the downtown residential projects, with exception to Center Pointe, have traditional style architecture. Its time that we have alot more sleek looking projects with alot of steel and glass.

Edited August 17, 2008 by cityboi

[JerseyBoy]

I wonder if his new tower will still appear to be a twin to Center Pointe? I'd actually prefer it to be a completely different type of style as it would give the skyline variety and make it appear denser from street level.

[triadguy37]

I wonder if his new tower will still appear to be a twin to Center Pointe? I'd actually prefer it to be a completely different type of style as it would give the skyline variety and make it appear denser from street level.

It will be a long time before a new office tower is needed in downtown Greensboro. Trucking and shipping companies have no use for office towers.

[twincity]

speaking of downtown office buildings, does anyone have a photo of the new 4-story bank HQ?

[krazeeboi]

It will be a long time before a new office tower is needed in downtown Greensboro. Trucking and shipping companies have no use for office towers.

Depends on what you mean by "need." Many of the new towers going up in Atlanta will be occupied by tenants that already have a presence in the city, many even in downtown, Midtown, and Buckhead (i.e., "tenant shuffling").

From the article I read about the new bank HQs building downtown, the expansion of Green Valley Office Park is playing a significant role in the sluggish construction of new office space downtown.

[Beany]

don't be hating on the boro.. to think gso is just shipping and trucking is just silly ignorance. none of us know when another office tower will be built. it could be a long time or it could be around the corner.

[triadguy37]

don't be hating on the boro.. to think gso is just shipping and trucking is just silly ignorance. none of us know when another office tower will be built. it could be a long time or it could be around the corner.

If I recall the next tower was scheduled to be built near the airport not downtown. I am not sure if this has been put on hold or cancelled. The majority of growth in Greensboro will be in and around the airport, where land is cheap. I don't for see a need for any high rise office buildings in downtown Greensboro. Greensboro is a large suburban city with a very small urban core due to the fact that Greensboro is obsessed with annexing everytime they get a chance. The majority of growth that Greensboro will see over the next few years will be due to FedEx and will be concentrated in and around hwy68 and I40. Unfortunatley downtown Greensboro is not convenient to the Interstate. I think the I40, hwy68 area has a better chance of seeing future high rise proposals than downtown. Downtown will continue to grow as a entertainment district, with some low to midrise buildings. Young professionals, singles, empty nesters will be drawn to downtown because it offers a since of community in an urban setting. I don't beleive downtown Greensboro will be able to support to many more expensive condos. Apartments and affordable housing options will have to be offered if downtown wants to continue to grow in population. I am really not sure why some on this fourn are so obsessed with high rise buildings in downtown Greensboro. If downtown GSO would have been a little closer to I40/I85 and if leaders of the past would have foucsed on developing a dense urban core, things might be different today for downtown, but instead Greensboro choose to grow out instead of grow up, which is the main reason it has such a small downtown. Lets be happy with what downtown is developing into and focus on continuing to promote it as the Triad"s main entertainment district, instead of a bunch of boring high rise office buildings that are lifeless after 5 and on weekends. Edited August 20, 2008 by triadguy37

[coastalmindset]

If I recall the next tower was scheduled to be built near the airport not downtown. I am not sure if this has been put on hold or cancelled. The majority of growth in Greensboro will be in and around the airport, where land is cheap. I don't for see a need for any high rise office buildings in downtown Greensboro. Greensboro is a large suburban city with a very small urban core due to the fact that Greensboro is obsessed with annexing everytime they get a chance. The majority of growth that Greensboro will see over the next few years will be due to FedEx and will be concentrated in and around hwy68 and I40. Unfortunatley downtown Greensboro is not convenient to the Interstate. I think the I40, hwy68 area has a better chance of seeing future high rise proposals than downtown. Downtown will continue to grow as a entertainment district, with some low to midrise buildings. Young professionals, singles, empty nesters will be drawn to downtown because it offers a since of community in an urban setting. I don't beleive downtown Greensboro will be able to support to many more expensive condos. Apartments and affordable housing options will have to be offered if downtown wants to continue to grow in population. I am really not sure why some on this fourn are so obsessed with high rise buildings in downtown Greensboro. If downtown GSO would have been a little closer to I40/I85 and if leaders of the past would have foucsed on developing a dense urban core, things might be different today for downtown, but instead Greensboro choose to grow out instead of grow up, which is the main reason it has such a small downtown. Lets be happy with what downtown is developing into and focus on continuing to promote it as the Triad"s main entertainment district, instead of a bunch of boring high rise office buildings that are lifeless after 5 and on weekends.

This is probably one of the most accurate and in tune points I've ever read on UP.

[cityboi]

If I recall the next tower was scheduled to be built near the airport not downtown. I am not sure if this has been put on hold or cancelled. The majority of growth in Greensboro will be in and around the airport, where land is cheap. I don't for see a need for any high rise office buildings in downtown Greensboro. Greensboro is a large suburban city with a very small urban core due to the fact that Greensboro is obsessed with annexing everytime they get a chance. The majority of growth that Greensboro will see over the next few years will be due to FedEx and will be concentrated in and around hwy68 and I40. Unfortunatley downtown Greensboro is not convenient to the Interstate. I think the I40, hwy68 area has a better chance of seeing future high rise proposals than downtown. Downtown will continue to grow as a entertainment district, with some low to midrise buildings. Young professionals, singles, empty nesters will be drawn to downtown because it offers a since of community in an urban setting. I don't beleive downtown Greensboro will be able to support to many more expensive condos. Apartments and affordable housing options will have to be offered if downtown wants to continue to grow in population. I am really not sure why some on this fourn are so obsessed with high rise buildings in downtown Greensboro. If downtown GSO would have been a little closer to I40/I85 and if leaders of the past would have foucsed on developing a dense urban core, things might be different today for downtown, but instead Greensboro choose to grow out instead of grow up, which is the main reason it has such a small downtown. Lets be happy with what downtown is developing into and focus on continuing to promote it as the Triad"s main entertainment district, instead of a bunch of boring high rise office buildings that are lifeless after 5 and on weekends.

leave it to the experts (developers) to decide when downtown is ready for another office tower. We can post here all day saying downtown is or isnt ready for an office tower but it doesnt mean a hill of beans on the reality of whats going on. I also dont buy the theory that interstates have to go through downtown for high-rise office development. I think we are all aware that the Triad cities wont see the kind of office tower growth Charlotte has seen for some time, mainly because we are a manufacturing region. But just because we are a manufacturing region and we dont see 40-story office tower proposals ever two months, doesnt mean an office tower proposal isnt around the corner for downtown Greensboro. Obviously the economy is bad nationwide right now to do anything but If Roy Carroll says he has plans to build an office tower, I believe him. We are talking about a developer who has done something people thought would never happen (renovation of the Wachovia Building). He has a track record of building a high-rise project in downtown Greensboro and he knows the market. He has the credibility unlike some other developers. But anyone who says Greensboro is just a big suburban town either doesnt know Greensboro that well. If you want to call Greensboro a big suburban city, than you might as well call Charlotte, Atlanta, ect suburban cities because they both follow the same Growth patterns Greensboro does.

Edited August 20, 2008 by cityboi

[RALNATIVE]

I am really not sure why some on this fourn are so obsessed with high rise buildings in downtown Greensboro.

Having read these threads for a while now, it has become clear that the driving force behind this obsession is the simple fact that they feel since Charlotte and Raleigh are getting towers and upscale retail, why can't Greensboro...

This seems to be a recurring theme, which is very lame.

[cityboi]

Having read these threads for a while now, it has become clear that the driving force behind this obsession is the simple fact that they feel since Charlotte and Raleigh are getting towers and upscale retail, why can't Greensboro...

This seems to be a recurring theme, which is very lame.

nobody is saying that at all

[triadguy37]

If Roy Carroll says he has plans to build an office tower, I believe him. We are talking about a developer who has done something people thought would never happen (renovation of the Wachovia Building). He has a track record of building a high-rise project in downtown Greensboro and he knows the market. He has the credibility unlike some other developers.

I am sure Roy Carroll has good intentions and probably would like to see an office tower built downtown, but I personally don't think that will happen anytime soon. We all have good intentions and comment on things we would like to see, but when reality hits, that is a different story. Please tell me who you think would fill this 40 story office building? I don't understand your reasoning behind this.

But anyone who says Greensboro is just a big suburban town either doesnt know Greensboro that well. If you want to call Greensboro a big suburban city, than you might as well call Charlotte, Atlanta, ect suburban cities because they both follow the same Growth patterns Greensboro does.

I have lived in this city since I was born going on 40+ years now, so I think I now Greensboro well. The topic of this post is Downtown Greensboro Developments and we are not commenting on Charlotte or Atlanta, but since you asked, I do think they are large suburban cities, but they also have large urban cores, and they also have interstates running through or beside the city. Even the size of downtown Winston-Salem with I40 running through it has a very impressive downtown and will continue to grow since access to downtown via I40 is relatively painless. I have had friends from other Triad cities tell me many times that they did not know Greensboro had a downtown. One friend thought downtown GSO was High Point Road in the 4 Season Mall area. Charlotte, Raleigh, and Winston-Salem all have large skylines that demands your attention when passing by and even from a distance. Greensboro's downtown is kind of hidden and really not visible to folks who pass through via I40/I85.

Edited August 20, 2008 by triadguy37

[coastalmindset]

I have lived in this city since I was born going on 40+ years now, so I think I now Greensboro well. The topic of this post is Downtown Greensboro Developments and we are not commenting on Charlotte or Atlanta, but since you asked, I do think they are large suburban cities, but they also have large urban cores, and they also have interstates running through or beside the city. Even the size of downtown Winston-Salem with I40 running through it has a very impressive downtown and will continue to grow since access to downtown via I40 is relatively painless. I have had friends from other Triad cities tell me many times that they did not know Greensboro had a downtown. One friend thought downtown GSO was High Point Road in the 4 Season Mall area. Charlotte, Raleigh, and Winston-Salem all have large skylines that demands your attention when passing by and even from a distance. Greensboro's downtown is kind of hidden and really not visible to folks who pass through via I40/I85.

While I've only been here 15 years I agree that most large scale cities are suburban at their root with large scale urban centers. And I agree that these "urban cores" develop in part from the ease of interstate access. From the center of downtown Greensboro to I-40 (the closest interstate) it is roughly 2.5 miles, so for new developments in downtown Greensboro, especially all these proposed high rises, wouldn't it make more sense to grow toward the south side of the city which would grow downtown closer to I-40? Maybe the city planners should look at that if they really want to push the growth of downtown. I would think that would help set a boundary for its urban core while at the same time making it more accessible for visitors.

As we become more energy conscious, people will want more and more to live close to work and while this theory would support the growth of future downtown developments in some cities, Greensboro has continued to bring in jobs that leave people living in a suburban environment due in part to our cities design. Shipping, logistics and large scale manufacturing simply don't work in our current downtown environment. The land isn't there, what is there isn't cheap and it's not close to reasonable transportation. The Hwy 68 area will continue to grow at a much faster rate than downtown because these industries can thrive there. While in 10 years there may be a shift that brings large scale developments to downtown Greensboro I would doubt we will see many large scale developments downtown in the next few years without a shift in our economic position. As you mentioned downtown will remain an entertainment and dining destination.

[cityboi]

I am sure Roy Carroll has good intentions and probably would like to see an office tower built downtown, but I personally don't think that will happen anytime soon. We all have good intentions and comment on things we would like to see, but when reality hits, that is a different story. Please tell me who you think would fill this 40 story office building? I don't understand your reasoning behind this.

I have lived in this city since I was born going on 40+ years now, so I think I now Greensboro well. The topic of this post is Downtown Greensboro Developments and we are not commenting on Charlotte or Atlanta, but since you asked, I do think they are large suburban cities, but they also have large urban cores, and they also have interstates running through or beside the city. Even the size of downtown Winston-Salem with I40 running through it has a very impressive downtown and will continue to grow since access to downtown via I40 is relatively painless. I have had friends from other Triad cities tell me many times that they did not know Greensboro had a downtown. One friend thought downtown GSO was High Point Road in the 4 Season Mall area. Charlotte, Raleigh, and Winston-Salem all have large skylines that demands your attention when passing by and even from a distance. Greensboro's downtown is kind of hidden and really not visible to folks who pass through via I40/I85.

"I am sure Roy Carroll has good intentions and probably would like to see an office tower built downtown, but I personally don't think that will happen anytime soon. "

We all have a right to our opinions. But im sure Roy Carroll knows what he is talking about being that he is more experienced than any of us in this field.

I just think its 1990s thinking that a city has to have a freeway going through downtown. There is a city in Canada, cant remember the name, that has a downtown with a skyline as big as any major city in this country yet the nearest highway to downtown is miles away.

The great thing about downtown Greensboro is that it doesnt have a freeway going through downtown and dividing neighborhoods from the central business district. There is a natural connection with downtown and its surrounding neigborhoods (walkability) and to me that represents the kind of urbanism cities are now striving for. We have to look no further than Charlotte where the cities wants to cap I-277 that loops around uptown Charlotte.

But Business 85/40 is far enough away from downtown that it doesnt disturb the neighborhood/downtown connection yet its close enough for easy access.

Edited August 20, 2008 by cityboi

[triadguy37]

We all have a right to our opinions. But im sure Roy Carroll knows what he is talking about being that he is more experienced than any of us in this field.

If I remember correctly, it was about a year ago that Ray Gibbs said big things were going to happen according to your post. Ray Gibbs says this, Ray Gibbs knows this, and we are all still waiting for this announcement. Ray Gibbs is long gone, and there has been no big announcement. Now it is Roy Carroll says this and knows this. Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with being a big dreamer and everyone wants their city to grow, but I don't think downtown Greensboro is headed in that direction. Since you are so obsessed with high rises, have your ever thought about moving to a bigger city like New York, Chicago, San Francisco, Miami. These are all big cities with great urban cores that are continuing to see big time development like you want to see in downtown Greensboro.

Edited August 20, 2008 by triadguy37

[Beany]

Don't pay any attention to the gso haters.

[JerseyBoy]

Don't pay any attention to the gso haters.

It seems to me that these "gso haters" live in Greensboro, so I wouldn't dismiss their comments just becuase they are not pollyannaish. If you want to negate what someone else is saying, feel free to offer up your opinion.

[Beany]

Just because someone says they live in Greensboro doesn't mean they for a fact do. But nevermind that it really doesn't matter one way or the other. Certainly everyone is entitled to their opinions but when someones posts are continually meant to diminish a city then its not cool. Some people want to paint Greensboro as a suburban wasteland, created from poor development patterns, with little urbanity and little future for growth outside warehouses and distribution centers at the airport. While at the same time they trumpet W-S for having a superior urban core with a much brighter future for urban developments in their downtown. And it is certainly okay for people to feel that way. They are entitled to that opinion. But its obvious by the patterns of some people's post that their intent is to diminish the ideals of greensboro and their promoters for urban development. There are very few posters for Greensboro on here. Do you think people could be more hospitable and open to what is going on gso?

Edited August 21, 2008 by Beany

[crowe1856]

I've often felt like I was one of the few "glass-half-empty" people around this board when it came to the subject of Greensboro, so it's been interesting to read the recent posts from others who publicly recognize challenges such as the shortcomings in infrastructure and lasting impact of horrific decisions made during '60's/'70's urban renewal.

I for one grow weary of hearing how terrific everything is because we have a few new nightclubs & condos. One only need look at the DGI website & see that the baseball shaped parking deterrents at the ballpark are listed on the interactive downtown map as "public art" for an example of how silly it can all get. If that's what's considered culturally significant, then I've got some hella good "art" to show you in front of the new Target.

That said, I understand people's right to be enthusiastic. Having come here four years ago from a city of comparable population (248K) but with a downtown 2 to 3 times bigger than Greensboro 's (not to mention an overall land mass some 50 sq miles smaller), I admittedly didn't care for the city much at all. However, developments such as Southside and Center Pointe are truly worth celebrating. Heck, even the turnout for this year's July 4th celebration versus that of four years ago led me to remark that there may be hope for this town yet.

I think any emphasis on high-rise development in Greensboro isn't specifically tied to Charlotte or Raleigh so much as it is keeping up with the Joneses in general. This is Urban Planet after all, and for better or worse, a city's downtown is often judged by it's skyline. There's an element of status that comes from tall buildings in the eyes of many, and truly it's one of the things which identifies a city- if someone shows you a picture of Charlotte vs Pittsburgh vs San Francisco, you can tell which city is which by skyline much easier than by pictures of random suburban office parks. Accordingly, it's something that gets folks excited.

It's not really my place to say if or when a new office tower will be built. I think without economic incentives it's unrealistic so long as there's cheaper land with easier access to be found elsewhere. Even if a corporation or developer decided to really make a splash and build a tower, the additional pressure put on downtown's transit infrastructure would be unpleasant. I know some argue that downtown's lack of a giant people moving asphalt scar enhances connectivity to surrounding neighborhoods, however can you really call sizable lengths of Edgeworth, Church, Eugene, Fisher, or the like all that walkable? Care to take a "stroll" from Blandwood to College Hill? I wasn't around, but it seems the "Main" street (Elm) was reduced to 2 lanes to make it more pedestrian friendly, and to compensate, many of the other streets were made less pedestrian friendly; four lanes or more with parking garages, empty lots, or brick walls facing the street. When you see pictures pictures of Greensboro from the '30's, '40's & even '50's, the number of historic structures that were razed and amount of density that was lost in order to accommodate the automobile is absolutely heartbreaking.

Regardless of the city's past or what any of us wet blankets may have to say about its present or future, it's not like the office tower subject is complete fiction. Even if we feel some get carried away with their enthusiasm, the second Center Pointe tower was recently in the press again and therefore subject to discussion. Personally, I'm more of a "wait and see" type guy, but then that really doesn't make for very interesting reading...

Edited August 21, 2008 by crowe1856

[JerseyBoy]

Just because someone says they live in Greensboro doesn't mean they for a fact do. But nevermind that it really doesn't matter one way or the other. Certainly everyone is entitled to their opinions but when someones posts are continually meant to diminish a city then its not cool. Some people want to paint Greensboro as a suburban wasteland, created from poor development patterns, with little urbanity and little future for growth outside warehouses and distribution centers at the airport. While at the same time they trumpet W-S for having a superior urban core with a much brighter future for urban developments in their downtown. And it is certainly okay for people to feel that way. They are entitled to that opinion. But its obvious by the patterns of some people's post that their intent is to diminish the ideals of greensboro and their promoters for urban development. There are very few posters for Greensboro on here. Do you think people could be more hospitable and open to what is going on gso?

Personally, I see a lot of potential in Greensboro, like we all do. Though this has to be realized by the people in charge of things (the mayor, city-council, county commissioners, DGI, etc.). Greensboro has decided that its new major is going to be "aerotropolis" with a minor in manufacturing and logistics. As we've already said, these types of industries locate in lowrise complexes where you can put up a cheap building for a low amount. I'd be willing to bet that there are twice as many employees along the 68 stretch than there are in downtown. Greensboro (or posters on this board) wants a dense skyline and manufacturing facilities. In my opinion, you can't have both unless you have corporate headquarters of companies that require a central location and have a strong presence in the city. If you want to be an "aerotropolis", then you're going to have to come to the realization that these companies do not locate in downtown, but near an airport (hence "aero"). Somehow, I'm getting that feeling from local Guilford County business leaders...

These leaders, in my opinion, have their heads in their asses. The transportation/logistics industry is very competitive with a few major known hubs, Charlotte and Atlanta, located very close to the Triad. This seems like quite a gamble if you ask me. If they want a vibrant urban core, DON'T ATTRACT THESE COMPANIES! I don't know how I can say it simpler. We're all desperate for jobs. We were once the manufacturing center for the country, if not the world, when it came to textiles, furniture, and cigarettes. But, this vision of becoming a logistics hub seems like nothing more than nostalgia by good 'ole boy leaders. The past is the past, move on already. Greensboro needs fresh leadership from a younger generation to really turn this city around and put it on a stable path towards the future.

Do you think people could be more hospitable and open to what is going on gso?

Personally, I'm not fond of lowrise crap that rapes our land; however that's my opinion. You may like it, and that is okay. Just because Greensboro is building a new shopping center or a subdivision doesn't mean I'm going to get out on Wendover with some pom-poms. I hate to be blunt like this, but that is my current attitude towards this city. I am just as critical, if not more, of my own city when it comes to building materials and land-use. One only has to know about the bad blood that I have with a local developer because of my harsh inner critic. For the record, I don't like how Greensboro has developed. I get sick to my stomach when I travel from 68 to MLK Drive/421. The decaying areas in between are the result of spreading out too far and not maintaining good infrastructure/planning policies. Retail centers have shifted more times then I can count on my two hands. That may be a little bit exaggerated, but there is some truth to it.