Parking problem downtown - too much of it? Not enough?

[Paramaribo]

Perhaps it's buried in this forum, but how much parking is managed by Ellis? It seems like they have little competition, and without competition, what incentive do they have to make one lot more attractive than other? Would consumers look for a lot if it was architecturally/visually appealing? Or if it offered additional services like car washing/detailing? I don't know. The multi-story lots are so bland and utilitarian, they're easy to miss, especially from the driver's seat.

[Veloise]

Perhaps it's buried in this forum, but how much parking is managed by Ellis? It seems like they have little competition, and without competition, what incentive do they have to make one lot more attractive than other? Would consumers look for a lot if it was architecturally/visually appealing? Or if it offered additional services like car washing/detailing? I don't know. The multi-story lots are so bland and utilitarian, they're easy to miss, especially from the driver's seat.

 

I can't answer the quantity question, but they do aim for quality, adding thousand$$ in holiday decorations to their properties. (Recalling a GRPress piece about the city's holiday parking special, and Ellis didn't like that.)

 

Also, check out their lot on Market after dusk. You could use the illumination to read the classifieds on the S-curve! Small aircraft use it as approach markings! Seriously, Ellis replied that all the bright lighting would "condition" itself and diminish to a lower candlepower.

 

This Streetview is old.

 

Found some updated images of the subject lot.

http://www.ellisparking.com/portals/0/Images/ServicesPageImage.jpg

 

Landscaping, street furniture, faux old-timey stree lights.

http://www.ellisparking.com/portals/0/Images/AboutPageImage.jpg

 

Vehicle detailing

 

Full disclosure: I have never parked in an Ellis lot.

Edited January 29, 2013 by Veloise

[GRDadof3]

I can't answer the quantity question, but they do aim for quality, adding thousand$$ in holiday decorations to their properties. (Recalling a GRPress piece about the city's holiday parking special, and Ellis didn't like that.)

 

Also, check out their lot on Market after dusk. You could use the illumination to read the classifieds on the S-curve! Small aircraft use it as approach markings! Seriously, Ellis replied that all the bright lighting would "condition" itself and diminish to a lower candlepower.

 

This Streetview is old.

 

 

That lot is well signed. But I parked there for lunch one time at Bistro Bella Vita and I believe it was $5 for an hour and a half. Haven't parked there since, unless it's for a Community Foundation event where they validate parking.

 

Ellis is highway robbery, and one of the Ellis' sit on the parking commission.

[jas49503]

people may complain about parking in grand rapids but I suspect that they would complain about the parking in ANY city. at least any city of any significant size.  A LOT of people are scared of not being able to find parking, traffic, being able to find the store they are looking for, etc. You can only make it so friendly before you just decide to bulldoze the entire thing and make the city one big strip mall. at some point the city has to realize that it can't be all things to all people, and shouldn't even try.  this isn't to say it shouldn't optimize the current parking situation to make it as user friendly as possible. 

[GRDadof3]

I think this whole issue came up again because of Schuler's? I agree, the city can't be everything to everyone. It should bag the 30+ year campaign to revive retail downtown and just allow any businesses to lease the ground floor retail spaces. In 10 years when there's enough residents downtown, the demand for retail will push out the office users (if the market acts the way it should). Fighting market forces and manipulating supply and demand hasn't really done much to make a major impact. If tourists and convention goers want to buy trinkets, they can always shop at the Amway Grand Hotel.

[wingbert]

To paraphrase 1 Corinthians: When I was a village, I managed as a village, I understood as a village, I thought as a
village: but when I became a city, I put away village-ish things.

[Veloise]

A little bird tells me that this topic will be a featured article soon.

[Jippy]

...I agree, the city can't be everything to everyone. It should bag the 30+ year campaign to revive retail downtown and just allow any businesses to lease the ground floor retail spaces. In 10 years when there's enough residents downtown, the demand for retail will push out the office users (if the market acts the way it should). Fighting market forces and manipulating supply and demand hasn't really done much to make a major impact. ..

 

I disagree. Downtown redevelopment is a ballet, and the entire enterprise of redeveloping downtown is a fight against market forces...market forces that have trended towards suburbanization over the last two generations. That fight has included massive amounts of public and philanthropic investments. Demanding some level of minimum commitment for the "price" of these investments is certainly not an unreasonable demand. While ground floor retail may not be the "highest and best use" in terms of the rents commanded for the location today, ground floor retail requirements adds to the vitality and attractiveness of downtown. Over the long-run, that requirement of clustered active ground floor uses should translate into more beds and desks downtown than by purely relying on today's market forces.

 

There are great examples of cities that do not have these requirements and they have suffered from it. Take a Google Streetview trip of downtown Tampa to see the alternative. Despite a stronger local and state economy, that downtown is a pedestrian wasteland. Big buildings. No ground floor activity. Few pedestrians,

 

My takeaway from this round of conversation on parking and retail are: 1) there are low-hanging improvements available to immediately elevate the parking experience, 2) we need to maintain realistic expectations of what type of retail is viable today, and 3) we need to nurture and invest in our existing retail corridors while laying the foundation as to where the true retail clusters should be located when market conditions better allow it. By doing these things, we will continue to attract additional residential and commercial development.  BTW, Milwaukee offers a great example of what quality retail could act like near their urban market. 

[GRDadof3]

I disagree. Downtown redevelopment is a ballet, and the entire enterprise of redeveloping downtown is a fight against market forces...market forces that have trended towards suburbanization over the last two generations. That fight has included massive amounts of public and philanthropic investments. Demanding some level of minimum commitment for the "price" of these investments is certainly not an unreasonable demand. While ground floor retail may not be the "highest and best use" in terms of the rents commanded for the location today, ground floor retail requirements adds to the vitality and attractiveness of downtown. Over the long-run, that requirement of clustered active ground floor uses should translate into more beds and desks downtown than by purely relying on today's market forces.

 

There are great examples of cities that do not have these requirements and they have suffered from it. Take a Google Streetview trip of downtown Tampa to see the alternative. Despite a stronger local and state economy, that downtown is a pedestrian wasteland. Big buildings. No ground floor activity. Few pedestrians,

 

My takeaway from this round of conversation on parking and retail are: 1) there are low-hanging improvements available to immediately elevate the parking experience, 2) we need to maintain realistic expectations of what type of retail is viable today, and 3) we need to nurture and invest in our existing retail corridors while laying the foundation as to where the true retail clusters should be located when market conditions better allow it. By doing these things, we will continue to attract additional residential and commercial development.  BTW, Milwaukee offers a great example of what quality retail could act like near their urban market. 

 

While I agree with what you are saying, it's not really working. And hasn't been working right for 30+ years. Yes, there have been a lot of retail successes downtown lately (MoDiv, Nate's bike shop, etc.) there are still a lot of "broken teeth."

 

If you go to a city that has a really great downtown retail district, it most likely has been a good retail district for a long time (survived the mass suburbanization of retail).

[GRDadof3]

A little bird tells me that this topic will be a featured article soon.

 

Oh yay. I was just thinking this discussion needed some good MLive trollership.

[jas49503]

While I agree with what you are saying, it's not really working. And hasn't been working right for 30+ years. Yes, there have been a lot of retail successes downtown lately (MoDiv, Nate's bike shop, etc.) there are still a lot of "broken teeth."

 

If you go to a city that has a really great downtown retail district, it most likely has been a good retail district for a long time (survived the mass suburbanization of retail).

any great downtown retail district that has been around for 30+ years likely has a large tourist following.  for every other city, they are essentially having to reinvent the wheel.  you can not separate downtown residential population from retail though.  this is due to the aforementioned problems with parking, etc. like the chicken or egg conundrum, you will not attract people without some retail though. the problem is how to attract retail without a huge population. once you've attracted a population base then you won't have to attract retail. retail will find you..

 

to compare downtown to 30+ years ago would be a mistake. there is a much greater affinity for downtown living now. a subset of the population has decided that to spend 20+ minutes in the car to get to work, a decent restaurant, etc., is not worth the extra work that the extra large yard you have is worth it.  

[Jippy]

The parking environment can certainly be improved, but I wouldn't go as far as to say that it is the primary problem. There are a confluence of circumstances, policy decisions, market forces, and development/design decisions that have led us to the retail market we have today. Parking is certainly one of the bundle of challenges. Mandating ground floor active uses ensures the minimum supply of space for retail.  Additional strategies are needed to address a supply of better establishments and creating greater consumer demand.  Artificially creating an active downtown retail scene is next to impossible, but there are certainly a myriad of policies that can facilitate a more robust retail scene. 

[SupercityGR]

if you build it, they will come???

[joeDowntown]

Talked to one of my co-workers yesterday who was griping about the lack of parking downtown. For reference, this person is a Kendall grad (spent a lot of time downtown) and my office is located in the San Chez building. I literally dragged them to the window and pointed out 5 parking ramps w/in 2 blocks, a surface lot, and the 4-5 lots behind the arena. Surprisingly, they had NO IDEA that much parking existed right around our building. There is definitely a parking perception problem, especially since this person is used to being downtown, spending time at school/work/coffee shops, etc.

 

It was quite baffling to me but I bet this happens every day. What to do, what to do?

 

Joe 

[GRDadof3]

Talked to one of my co-workers yesterday who was griping about the lack of parking downtown. For reference, this person is a Kendall grad (spent a lot of time downtown) and my office is located in the San Chez building. I literally dragged them to the window and pointed out 5 parking ramps w/in 2 blocks, a surface lot, and the 4-5 lots behind the arena. Surprisingly, they had NO IDEA that much parking existed right around our building. There is definitely a parking perception problem, especially since this person is used to being downtown, spending time at school/work/coffee shops, etc.

 

It was quite baffling to me but I bet this happens every day. What to do, what to do?

 

Joe 

 

Screw those people Joe. If they can't figure out where a parking spot is in that area, then who needs em.

 

Charge them double too, while you're at it.

[John E]

Cars and Robust Cities Are Fundamentally Incompatible

http://www.theatlanticcities.com/commute/2013/02/cars-and-robust-cities-are-fundamentally-incompatible/4651/

Edited February 12, 2013 by John E

[Veloise]

Talked to one of my co-workers yesterday who was griping about the lack of parking downtown. For reference, this person is a Kendall grad (spent a lot of time downtown) and my office is located in the San Chez building. I literally dragged them to the window and pointed out 5 parking ramps w/in 2 blocks, a surface lot, and the 4-5 lots behind the arena. Surprisingly, they had NO IDEA that much parking existed right around our building. There is definitely a parking perception problem, especially since this person is used to being downtown, spending time at school/work/coffee shops, etc.

 

It was quite baffling to me but I bet this happens every day. What to do, what to do?

I see driver's ed vehicles downtown. Perhaps the DDA should invite the instructors to have their charges practice entering the parking ramps.

[Veloise]

This was a fun thread, found while looking for something else.

 

http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.php/topic/33976-retail-downtown/

[Veloise]

I can't answer the quantity question, but they do aim for quality, adding thousand$$ in holiday decorations to their properties. (Recalling a GRPress piece about the city's holiday parking special, and Ellis didn't like that.)

 

Also, check out their lot on Market after dusk. You could use the illumination to read the classifieds on the S-curve! Small aircraft use it as approach markings! Seriously, Ellis replied that all the bright lighting would "condition" itself and diminish to a lower candlepower.

 

This Streetview is old.

 

Found some updated images of the subject lot.

http://www.ellisparking.com/portals/0/Images/ServicesPageImage.jpg

 

Landscaping, street furniture, faux old-timey stree lights.

http://www.ellisparking.com/portals/0/Images/AboutPageImage.jpg

 

Vehicle detailing

 

Full disclosure: I have never parked in an Ellis lot.

Finally landed an illustrative photo.

[GRDadof3]

Finally landed an illustrative photo.

 

What was that illustrating again?

[Allison Slater]

The post was describing overly bright lighting, but the lights aren't on in the photo.  I'm just as lost as you are.

[Veloise]

What was that illustrating again?

From post #269:

I can't answer the quantity question, but they [Ellis] do aim for quality...

 

Also, check out their [Ellis'] lot on Market after dusk. You could use the illumination to read the classifieds on the S-curve! Small aircraft use it as approach markings! Seriously, Ellis replied that all the bright lighting would "condition" itself and diminish to a lower candlepower.

...

Landscaping, street furniture, faux old-timey street lights. ¹

http://www.ellispark...utPageImage.jpg

 

¹ See the photo I just added.

Edited February 25, 2013 by Veloise

[wingbert]

I know that personally, when parking my car in an urban area I always seek out the darkest, most dimly lit area.

[Allison Slater]

From post #269:

I can't answer the quantity question, but they [Ellis] do aim for quality...

 

Also, check out their [Ellis'] lot on Market after dusk. You could use the illumination to read the classifieds on the S-curve! Small aircraft use it as approach markings! Seriously, Ellis replied that all the bright lighting would "condition" itself and diminish to a lower candlepower.

...

Landscaping, street furniture, faux old-timey street lights. ¹

http://www.ellispark...utPageImage.jpg

 

¹ See the photo I just added.

 

Yes, we are quite capable of reading the post you quoted when you posted the image.  Our point is we don't see at all what the provided image is demonstrating relative to said post.  We don't know how your brain works and makes connections, you need to describe what your image is "illustrating."  Are you perhaps satisfied with the quality of the area and are pointing that out, or are you dis-satisfied with the quality and fail to see any with the lot in question?  Perhaps you're pointing out the number of lighting fixtures in reference to the statement about the lighting?  Are you suggesting a lack of decor previously mentioned for one of their lots out of many?  We don't really know what you're trying to describe/illustrate here.

 

The written word is a useful tool.

Edited February 26, 2013 by tSlater

[joeDowntown]

Or maybe the odd shaped orbs in the sky! Oh wait, that's just snow on the lens.

 

Joe