Parking problem downtown - too much of it? Not enough?

[GRDadof3]

Speaking of parking (it will be the #1 contentious issue for downtown over the next 3 - 5 years, I'm betting):

http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2015/10/heres_the_meter-less_plan_to_e.html#incart_related_stories

This is interesting:

While a city parking lot on Ionia was half-empty that day and many of the metered spaces on the west side of Ionia were unoccupied, the un-metered east side of Ionia was jammed with vehicles.

Of course the un-metered side of the street was jammed with cars. You offer two EXACT products side-by-side and people will take the less expensive one.  Plus, if the metered spots were empty, and the Mason ST lot was empty, you have no demand for your services. If you were a business you'd have to shut your doors. Wow. 

 

 

Edited October 8, 2015 by GRDadof3

[x99]

Of course the un-metered side of the street was jammed with cars. You offer two EXACT products side-by-side and people will take the less expensive one.  Plus, if the metered spots were empty, and the Mason ST lot was empty, you have no demand for your services. If you were a business you'd have to shut your doors. Wow. 

You would think they would lower the cost of the lot to a point where people actually parked in it.  Anything beats nothing.  But that would be too easy and make too much sense.  

[getemngo]

MLive published an article about parking on Black Friday. It should be noted that the photos were taken late morning and early afternoon.

I've noticed that Meijer has been selling off a lot of outlot space at a lot of its stores in the last few years, and some of them (such as 54th & Clyde Park, thanks to Belle Tire and Panera Bread) have seen a pretty sizable parking lot reduction because of it.

[joeDowntown]

46 minutes ago, getemngo said:

MLive published an article about parking on Black Friday. It should be noted that the photos were taken late morning and early afternoon.

I've noticed that Meijer has been selling off a lot of outlot space at a lot of its stores in the last few years, and some of them (such as 54th & Clyde Park, thanks to Belle Tire and Panera Bread) have seen a pretty sizable parking lot reduction because of it.

The parking lot I'm always amazed by is the Southwest corner of Woodland Mall (by JC Penney) - It is a weed-filled lot that NO ONE parks in. I know they knocked down a few buildings and put it there to meet parking requirements but it is such an under-used waste of space... I think they should re-think the number of spaces required.

Joe

[GRDadof3]

54 minutes ago, joeDowntown said:

The parking lot I'm always amazed by is the Southwest corner of Woodland Mall (by JC Penney) - It is a weed-filled lot that NO ONE parks in. I know they knocked down a few buildings and put it there to meet parking requirements but it is such an under-used waste of space... I think they should re-think the number of spaces required.

Joe

 

Or the parking lot in front of ToysRUs. It's only full when the Christmas Tree "farm" is set up there. 

[x99]

And so it begins ... The business community and the public against "buses and bikes Bliss".  Pam Ritsema finally comes out and says we need parking (because the business community is freaking out) and there is NOTHING AVAILABLE SOUTH OF PEARL, and Rosalyn Bliss declares that there is "parking available right now" and discussion of a ramp happens only when "loss of current parking spaces" occurs because of a new development.  Really?  Downtown has no parking availability and the mayor just shrugs it off like "no biggie, we'll deal with it later"? 

http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2016/02/money_for_new_ramp_sought_to_e.htmld

[GRDadof3]

8 hours ago, x99 said:

And so it begins ... The business community and the public against "buses and bikes Bliss".  Pam Ritsema finally comes out and says we need parking (because the business community is freaking out) and there is NOTHING AVAILABLE SOUTH OF PEARL, and Rosalyn Bliss declares that there is "parking available right now" and discussion of a ramp happens only when "loss of current parking spaces" occurs because of a new development.  Really?  Downtown has no parking availability and the mayor just shrugs it off like "no biggie, we'll deal with it later"? 

http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2016/02/money_for_new_ramp_sought_to_e.htmld

I read that. Looks like the ramp behind the arena is a no-go. The whole attitude in the article is a bit disappointing. 

Maybe the city could partner with Ellis and build a new ramp next to the Keeler Building? 

 

[joeDowntown]

It is frustrating. Bikes, car share programs and buses may help (though just a drop in the bucket), but I think they need to be careful here. As more people love downtown, they'll want to work downtown. Which means companies need to locate downtown (and not everyone from said companies will live downtown). But they won't come downtown if they feel like parking is a major issue (price and availability). I hope they are coming up with a comprehensive plan and not grasping at straws. 

It seems like a really complex and potentially growth limiting situation  I hope they aren't taking it as lightly as this article seems to suggest.

Wonder why the arena parking ramp is off the table? 

Joe

 

[GR_Urbanist]

Whether Bliss likes it or not, GR will need to build a massive parking garage, or two strategically placed smaller ones, if we are expected to be competitive.

The one I remember from my trip to Seattle was 10 stories tall and a full city block long, and located right next to the heart of the city's massive shopping district.

Street view

This is a city that, while they encourage the use of mass transit, and have a very well-developed system, they arent as myopic as GR in thinking that bikes and buses "should" be what everyone uses or that jacking up the parking prices wont adversely affect people coming downtown. Not to mention the lack of spaces somehow wont be a problem for a business whose staff may live in whole other counties.

 

 

[GRDadof3]

I was over on the West Side on Bridge Street the other evening, and could envision it becoming quite the destination for restaurants, bars, and workers, even better than East Hills or Wealthy Street (more akin to a Chicago transit stop neighborhood). If I had a staff of 20 - 30 workers, I'd more likely consider setting up over there vs downtown now, especially with the parking situation. In addition to office space by New Holland, all Rockford would have to do is level those storefronts by their HQ and put up an office building with ground floor retail and parking behind it, and I bet it'd fill right up. 

I think especially with a weekend like this one, it's particularly unrealistic that a whole mess of people are going to bike or stand at an open air bus stop. 

[mgreven]

4 hours ago, GRDadof3 said:

I was over on the West Side on Bridge Street the other evening, and could envision it becoming quite the destination for restaurants, bars, and workers, even better than East Hills or Wealthy Street (more akin to a Chicago transit stop neighborhood). If I had a staff of 20 - 30 workers, I'd more likely consider setting up over there vs downtown now, especially with the parking situation. In addition to office space by New Holland, all Rockford would have to do is level those storefronts by their HQ and put up an office building with ground floor retail and parking behind it, and I bet it'd fill right up. 

I think especially with a weekend like this one, it's particularly unrealistic that a whole mess of people are going to bike or stand at an open air bus stop. 

Yep. Bridge Street is so close to DT and has so much potential. Those storefronts between Seward and Stocking need to go and something like you envision should take their place - I think that's the plan - I hope they do that sooner rather than later.

[GRDadof3]

12 hours ago, mgreven said:

Yep. Bridge Street is so close to DT and has so much potential. Those storefronts between Seward and Stocking need to go and something like you envision should take their place - I think that's the plan - I hope they do that sooner rather than later.

I thought they were talking about doing something more like Gaslight Village, but with all of the success with office space along Seward and American Seating Park, I think office and retail would do well. OST has got to be pushing to capacity. 

[mgreven]

What would be the difference between a Gaslight Village and what you're thinking? Wouldn't retail on the ground floor and offices on the upper floors be the idea with significant parking behind? (keeping kinda on topic..)

[GRDadof3]

1 hour ago, mgreven said:

What would be the difference between a Gaslight Village and what you're thinking? Wouldn't retail on the ground floor and offices on the upper floors be the idea with significant parking behind? (keeping kinda on topic..)

I'm talking 5, 6 stories minimum, with ground floor retail. Not 2 story buildings. 

Maybe even a small scale corporate HQ's. There's certainly room for an office building, residential and quite a bit of retail on that block (with on site parking, lots of it). 

Technically they own all the way to Stocking, so that could be added as well. Daytime workers could help support the businesses in that area, residents could help support the nightlife. Walk to the Y. I'd even like living there. 

 

[mgreven]

I like the way you think, Jeff. It would be a great place to live/work. 

[joeDowntown]

Repeating a question that got lost in the shuffle, but has anyone heard why the ramp behind the arena is off the table? 

I thought this was an ideal spot for a large ramp. The arena needs access from the south so they could never sell off the whole lot, it provides a good balance of daytime and night time parking not, and it could have been a massive ramp that could free up space in other ramps close to the core. 

Any thoughts? Too high of price tag? Renewed interest in arena expansion (just tossing that out for fun). Confused why it's off the table as an option. Seems like they could have provided good acces to the arena while covering that block with a large ramp. 

Joe

[Guest]

They can't build a parking lot south of the arena because of the laws relating to the bonds that were issued when the arena was built.   Apparently a parking ramp connected to the arena is not allowed to make money and a ramp can't be built for another 10 years or so.   That's not a great explanation, but I'm not clear on the details.   The Celebration Cinema development would have a 1,000 car garage if it happens.   The city says they won't issue any more extensions on the purchase option, so we should know fairly soon. 

[MJLO]

Granted I don't know the mayor but i can't see her allowing her personal philosophies to hurt the cities ability to attract new development.  Is she really parking averse, does she just not want the city going deeper into the parking business?  Or is she really enough of an ideologue to think if you starve the people of parking our city will be more transit dependent?  I do think that GR has the bones for people to function fine without an automobile, but the mindset isn't nearly there yet.

[Paramaribo]

11 hours ago, MJLO said:

I do think that GR has the bones for people to function fine without an automobile, but the mindset isn't nearly there yet.

Or perhaps GR changes its mindset about automobile ownership? What does it cost to own a car if you live downtown? Per month, $200 for payments, $100 for insurance, $150 for parking (anticipated inflation), and another $150 for gas, oil, maintenance, cleaning, etc.? For a relatively nice car, is $600 per month a reasonable figure?

An Uber trip from downtown to the airport (Cascade) costs about $15, so a similar commute might be $30 a day. Five days a week, outsource the commute and walk to restaurants, bars, etc. when home. Sounds ideal and costs about the same. Even if it costs a $100 more, eliminating a daily hike to a massive new parking ramp would be time saved, earned, and so on. 

 

[GRDadof3]

12 hours ago, MJLO said:

Granted I don't know the mayor but i can't see her allowing her personal philosophies to hurt the cities ability to attract new development.  Is she really parking averse, does she just not want the city going deeper into the parking business?  Or is she really enough of an ideologue to think if you starve the people of parking our city will be more transit dependent?  I do think that GR has the bones for people to function fine without an automobile, but the mindset isn't nearly there yet.

She's pretty fair-minded, and fairly business friendly (the Chamber endorsed her). But she might feel that a lot of her support came from the "urbanite" population and does not want to let them down.

To me, doing a "parking study" that the city spent a bunch of money on was a poor way to plan. Just because you have 40% of downtown parking spaces available does not really mean anything without proper context. They need to do a "mobility" study, and survey downtown business owners, shoppers, event goers, and residents about mobility patterns. Find out how many people currently ride the bus to work and set a reasonable goal for increasing that percentage. Find out how many people bike to downtown and find a reasonable goal to increase that percentage. Find out where the majority of downtown workers live and how they get to work, and give them incentives to try something other than driving. How many people walk to work downtown?  Who knows??

It also wouldn't hurt to survey companies that aren't downtown or even in the city, and ask them what would it take to get them into the city. 

But even the best cities in the country for bicycle commuting only have around 6% of the population doing it. That's in the best cities.  It's 4.1% in Minneapolis, with a similar climate to ours. Same with transit. I think most people would agree that Salt Lake City is a good city for Grand Rapids to aspire to, as far as growth goes. Yet even with a robust light rail system, only 2.9% of its population regularly takes transit to work.

So if you have 10,000 people using the parking system downtown, you can reasonably expect to mode-shift about 5% of those people to NOT drive, on a good day, with tons more money invested in our biking and transit system than we have now. That's 500 people, many of which may already be using alternative modes (hard to tell without the data). 

You will never get a desired result by penalizing people. There are far too many other options, for places to work, live and spend your disposable income. We're a compact metro area, and you can get virtually anywhere in less than 20 minutes by car. The alternative options are endless, other than downtown. The trend since UrbanPlanet started 10 years ago was a major shift TO downtown, and people wanting to move their workplace downtown. It's only in the last year or so that I've heard rumblings of the opposite happening. I now hear people say they no longer have business meetings, lunches or happy hours downtown. 

But without actually KNOWING what is going on, it's just soundbites and anecdotes. 

Even if you go all the way back to the beginning of this thread, the situation downtown was a lot different than it is now. There are still far too many surface lots, but some of those may need to be converted to parking ramps, and not just to handle whatever development goes on them but additional capacity. 

 

 

[GR_Urbanist]

10 minutes ago, Paramaribo said:

Or perhaps GR changes its mindset about automobile ownership? What does it cost to own a car if you live downtown? Per month, $200 for payments, $100 for insurance, $150 for parking (anticipated inflation), and another $150 for gas, oil, maintenance, cleaning, etc.? For a relatively nice car, is $600 per month a reasonable figure?

An Uber trip from downtown to the airport (Cascade) costs about $15, so a similar commute might be $30 a day. Five days a week, outsource the commute and walk to restaurants, bars, etc. when home. Sounds ideal and costs about the same. Even if it costs a $100 more, eliminating a daily hike to a massive new parking ramp would be time saved, earned, and so on. 

 

If you dont eat at sit-down restaurants or want to drink beer every night, there is still nothing to do downtown even after 12 years of continuous development. No place to buy food or groceries, no place to by inexpensive brand-name items. Giving up the freedom of a car (costs and all) to live in a retail and activity desert isn't worth it. GR will need 10,000 more people living in a concentrated area (not in scattered apartments) to even think of anything useful to daily life of locating there so that people can seriously consider not having a car.

Uber seems to be an overrated trendy toy for people that think cabs and buses must be dirty and low class. It isnt a replacement in a city like GR for reliable transportation because there isnt remotely enough of them, and lots of people simply do not trust it. Most people simply will not want to depend on them to live their daily lives even if it may be cheap to use.

[jas49503]

I buy clothes in a store maybe once a Year. There still needs to be a grocery and drug store downtown but IIRC there have been two groceries announced in the recent past. I know about one of them personally so I don't think it is unreasonable to think in a couple of years anperson could do without a car depending on what part of downtown you choose to live in. 

[GRDadof3]

32 minutes ago, GR_Urbanist said:

If you dont eat at sit-down restaurants or want to drink beer every night, there is still nothing to do downtown even after 12 years of continuous development. No place to buy food or groceries, no place to by inexpensive brand-name items. Giving up the freedom of a car (costs and all) to live in a retail and activity desert isn't worth it. GR will need 10,000 more people living in a concentrated area (not in scattered apartments) to even think of anything useful to daily life of locating there so that people can seriously consider not having a car.

Uber seems to be an overrated trendy toy for people that think cabs and buses must be dirty and low class. It isnt a replacement in a city like GR for reliable transportation because there isnt remotely enough of them, and lots of people simply do not trust it. Most people simply will not want to depend on them to live their daily lives even if it may be cheap to use.

If I lived, worked and shopped downtown, I think I would end up feeling like I was living in a bubble. I need some diversity. 

[GRDadof3]

1 hour ago, Paramaribo said:

Or perhaps GR changes its mindset about automobile ownership? What does it cost to own a car if you live downtown? Per month, $200 for payments, $100 for insurance, $150 for parking (anticipated inflation), and another $150 for gas, oil, maintenance, cleaning, etc.? For a relatively nice car, is $600 per month a reasonable figure?

An Uber trip from downtown to the airport (Cascade) costs about $15, so a similar commute might be $30 a day. Five days a week, outsource the commute and walk to restaurants, bars, etc. when home. Sounds ideal and costs about the same. Even if it costs a $100 more, eliminating a daily hike to a massive new parking ramp would be time saved, earned, and so on. 

 

Sure, you and 499 of your closest friends can reasonably be counted on as a goal for this. But that doesn't nearly put a dent in the 10,000 people who use the parking system downtown (just the city's alone, not counting Spectrum or private lots), nor does it take care of future demand. 

If you look at the current Laker Line, which has a huge population of GVSU students using it, it's basically 100% subsidized by the university. You give people the incentive to ride for free, when parking is a hassle downtown, they'll do it. Same with Ann Arbor's bus system, where employers basically give away free bus passes to workers. They have a huge ridership on the bus system, nearly half of downtown workers. Because it's free to the user. Free vs $200/month for a ramp spot and gas and I'd look into riding the bus if I worked downtown. 

[x99]

For all the talk about new residential and new construction, the big point is being missed:  No one can move downtown right now because the parking lot is full.  For anyone who believes in the promise and viability of cities and urbanism, that is a disaster.  There definitely will not be retail, and there most likely will not be any new customer-centric office use.  New non-customer office use is also highly unlikely.  We have reached a point where existing businesses' ability to service customers is jeopardized.  

By letting the current situation go unchecked, city leaders are playing with fire.  They need to announce a ramp construction plan, and now.  

All this residential construction and stuffing IT workers and dozens of other low-level employees downtown with no plan for parking I'm sure seemed like a brilliant idea at the time.  They'll all take the Silver Line!  Or ride a bike!  Well, they didn't.  Oops.  Now what?  An announcement from Mayor Bliss that downtown is happy to have your business as long as your CEO, your employees, and your customers will all take the bus or ride a fat bike?  

Edited February 16, 2016 by x99