The Gateway Site

[Greenville]

The city could buy back the Gateway Center property at the original purchase price. Once getting the property back, the city would offer to jointly build a combined city-county administration building with the County. The city would provide the land and the parking, which is already in place at the existing garage. The city would reimburse itself from the land purchase by selling the existing city hall. The county could pay for the new building since it would need most of the space, and is getting the land and garage for free. I would expect the building would need to be at least 10 stories, maybe 20. Operating expenses and management of the building would be shared based on square footage used per government. Florence City/County already does this in their City-County Complex facility, so there is an example to follow. I believe Orangeburg has a similar setup for a joint facility as well.

Pros:

* Since the land and building would be under the direct control of the city, there would be no chance that the building would be lackluster or not the 'landmark' that they (and we UPers) all want.

* Virtually every floor would have incredible views of both Downtown and Paris Mountain (and on a clear day even farther). Not a bad thing when the President of some major business or industrial prospect is chatting with the City/County officials about moving to the area.

* County employees would be closer to the restaurants DT, whereas it is quite easy for them now to just leave the suburban parking lot and head south.

* The Gateway site egress has always been a BIG issue in the private sector projects, but that wouldn't apply here so much, because there is no 'competition' to a government building.

* The County Square property could be set up as a TIF district to provide additional funding of this plan.

* The County Square site redevelopment would be a catalyst to better connect DT with the residential areas and the Master Plan for Haynie-Sirrine. There is a vast amount of vacant land on Church St that would increase in value substantially. Without a doubt, the Church Street corridor would see more interest from developers. This would be simultaneous to the streetscaping that is already set to take place on Church St.

* The city’s recently revised master plan calls for expanded development in BOTH the County Square and Bi-LO Center areas.

* The County would be free of the County Square building, which is expensive to maintain.

* The vast, 30 acre County Square site would be available for sale with no acreage 'held back' for a replacement county facility. The sales price would certainly pay a big chunk of the expense of the new building.

* The 30 acre canvas that County Square would provide could be developed very densely and its incredible views would be a major selling point for condos, offices, etc.

* A gaping hole in DT area (Gateway site) will not only be filled, but would be a major showplace and an icon of local pride and progress. Asheville already does this with its City Hall.

* The City Hall site would be available for redevelopment, just as it is increasing in value due to the Main and Broad project. Once the economy turns, it would no doubt get some interest.

* Whatever went to the city hall site could potentially (and hopefully) have more of a 24-hour impact on DT and Main Street, which a City Hall would never be able to do.

* The county offices would be immediately adjacent to the county's other major building, the courthouse, for whatever benefits that might bring.

*Working in the same building would allow personal relationship to develop between the staffers and public officials of the two governments. That would be a good thing.

*The city could get the first floor council chambers that it wants.

* Construction costs are down due to the recession, so this is an opportune time to get a relative bargain on the construction. It would also boost our down economy.

* This would be a bold project that would encourage the private sector to do likewise. Private money follows public money, and this would be a significant expenditure of public money.

* The functions currently served in the Municipal Court building on North Main (next to the 400 North Main condo) could be moved to the new building as well. This would free up that site for sale to a developer also. The city has considered this idea in the past.

* Between the Municipal Court Building, City Hall and County Square, about 35+- acres of land would be added to the tax rolls, in exchange for about 3 acres at the Gateway site.

* Given the location, it would allow a new building to be added to the skyline, that would NOT interfere with the pedestrian scale of Main Street.

Cons:

* It would be a complicated deal that would require both governments to come to a major agreement.

* There would have to be contracts for the city hall and county square properties, before the plan could go very far in implementation.

* The adjoining properties that are owned by Canal Insurance would have to be added as well, so there would be that expense. All of the property in the Church-E. North-Beattie block is not one parcel.

I realize it would have been better to do this before selling the parcel in the first place, but that is water under the bridge.

This is an outstanding proposal, vicupstate! I like it a lot. Please take this to the appropriate leaders in our city and county governments and don't leave until they agree to make it happen.

[gvegascple]

If the next developer wants to do something besides a highrise, they should consider somewhat of a destination development with unique restaurants and/or retail that is not offered anywhere else in the area (and definitely not downtown). Have a small lifestyle center with 3-5 stories. Ground-level restaurants could include places like Dave & Buster's, a fun bar like Yard House, Grape Wine Bar, BD's Mongolian Barbecue, etc. Have a well-known fitness center there for residents to use (and perhaps downtown workers at Liberty Square as well). Make this the "really fun" area/entertainment district. The Bi-Lo Center would complement that really well.

This is what I see as the best fit and compliment for the area, it will help support the Bilo Center and potentially help bring hockey back as well as do wonders for revitalizing some of the empty buildings accross from the Bilo Center on East North. I dont really care much for the whole Gateway concept, by being such a specific intent for the land, it limits how best it can be used and ultimately hinders it's success. I say let whatever will work the best there gateway or not. I still can't figure out how the traffic flow will work with this one though, seems like a potential cluster worse than the shops at Greenridge. We should be thinking of ways to re-route traffic anyway so we dont have high speed traffic bisecting main street where it does, and if so, that would remove this location as a gateway anyway (but that is another discussion)

[apaladin]

This is what I see as the best fit and compliment for the area, it will help support the Bilo Center and potentially help bring hockey back as well as do wonders for revitalizing some of the empty buildings accross from the Bilo Center on East North. I dont really care much for the whole Gateway concept, by being such a specific intent for the land, it limits how best it can be used and ultimately hinders it's success. I say let whatever will work the best there gateway or not. I still can't figure out how the traffic flow will work with this one though, seems like a potential cluster worse than the shops at Greenridge. We should be thinking of ways to re-route traffic anyway so we dont have high speed traffic bisecting main street where it does, and if so, that would remove this location as a gateway anyway (but that is another discussion)

IMHO what is sorely missing downtown is affordable housing. At least somewhat affordable. Would it be feasible to build a 10-15-25 story condo building with condos priced more reasonable say 150k to 300k? Most current condos downtown start at 300k and go way up from there. I think there is a real market for reasonable condos. I have lived downtown(lease) before and loved it. I want to go back downtown to live preferably sooner than later.

[Greenville]

IMHO what is sorely missing downtown is affordable housing. At least somewhat affordable. Would it be feasible to build a 10-15-25 story condo building with condos priced more reasonable say 150k to 300k? Most current condos downtown start at 300k and go way up from there. I think there is a real market for reasonable condos. I have lived downtown(lease) before and loved it. I want to go back downtown to live preferably sooner than later.

The most recent plan for the Gateway site (by the Marick Home Builder guys) was to have two towers - the shorter one, at 8-12 stories, was to be an apartment building. The taller one, at 20-25 floors, was to be a hotel and condos. My understanding, based on the limited information we received about the project, was that the apartments and condos were to be more affordable than what currently exists downtown. My guess is that they would have been in the range you mentioned. I agree that there is a huge demand for downtown living in that price range.

It is unfortunate that the plan did not workout, especially after Marick paid over 1 million for the site and spent time doing preliminary market feasibility studies. Maybe it was the economy, or maybe costs exceeded their initial projections - or maybe a combination of both. Hopefully the next developer will have a dynamic plan and be able to execute on it.

[gvegascple]

IMHO what is sorely missing downtown is affordable housing. At least somewhat affordable. Would it be feasible to build a 10-15-25 story condo building with condos priced more reasonable say 150k to 300k? Most current condos downtown start at 300k and go way up from there. I think there is a real market for reasonable condos. I have lived downtown(lease) before and loved it. I want to go back downtown to live preferably sooner than later.

Affordable housing and very expensive real estate generally do not go hand in hand.

[gvegascple]

The most recent plan for the Gateway site (by the Marick Home Builder guys) was to have two towers - the shorter one, at 8-12 stories, was to be an apartment building. The taller one, at 20-25 floors, was to be a hotel and condos. My understanding, based on the limited information we received about the project, was that the apartments and condos were to be more affordable than what currently exists downtown. My guess is that they would have been in the range you mentioned. I agree that there is a huge demand for downtown living in that price range.

It is unfortunate that the plan did not workout, especially after Marick paid over 1 million for the site and spent time doing preliminary market feasibility studies. Maybe it was the economy, or maybe costs exceeded their initial projections - or maybe a combination of both. Hopefully the next developer will have a dynamic plan and be able to execute on it.

I was skeptical of this purchase from the beginning. The plans seemed waay too grand for the developer and their track record. I thought they were just prospecting and would throw the property back on the market for a higher price after the economy improved.

[vicupstate]

They paid 1.8 mm in Jan 2008 when the market was still solvent. Now they want 2.9 million with the economy in the tank. We are going to be looking at that green wall for a long time to come, unfortunately.

Edited January 6, 2010 by vicupstate

[Greenville]

They paid 1.8 mm in Jan 2008 when the market was still solvent. Now they want 2.9 million with the economy in the tank. We are going to be looking at that green wall for a long time to come, unfortunately.

Is $2.9 million a legitimate asking price for that property? If so, they got it for a steal at $1.8 million two years ago.

[cutiger]

As of this morning, the for sale signs were gone. Not sure what that means...

[gman430]

As of this morning, the for sale signs were gone. Not sure what that means...

They're just redoing the signs. Nothing new.

[gman430]

Remember when? Five years later and we never even got a rendering:

Greenville Gateway Developers LLC complete purchase of downtown property

Land purchased near Bi-Lo Center

This past summer, a group of local businessmen said they planned to put a development on the former Memorial Auditorium site in downtown Greenville that would rise more than 20 stories.

Tuesday, the group, incorporated as Greenville Gateway Developers LLC, made good by forking over $1.8 million to complete their purchase of the 1.8-acre parcel between Beattie, Church and East North streets near the Bi-Lo Center.

Rick Thoennes III, one of the five partners, said the group plans to spend more than $100 million on the development. He said it would consist of "multiple towers that are connected in some form or fashion" and include a four-star hotel, two restaurants, apartments, condominiums and a fitness club. The partners plan to break ground in the spring of 2009, he said. 

"It will be a landmark in the state," Thoennes vowed. "Not just Greenville, but in the state."

City officials have been trying to arrange development of the site for at least eight years and signed agreements to sell the property four times only to have the deals fall through, said Nancy Whitworth, the city’s economic development director. 

"It’s been a long time coming," she said. 

Plans for a federal courthouse on the property were scrapped after judges complained that the site — squeezed between two one-way streets — raised parking, security and accessibility issues. 

Tuesday, Thoennes and another partner in the latest development plan, Tim Roberson, said they believe they will succeed where others have failed because their development will be entirely residential. 

"I think that makes a big difference for that location," Thoennes said. 

He said hotel guests and fitness club members would park in a city garage across Beattie Street, while apartment and condominium residents would park underground. Everyone will have access to a shuttle service that will take them anywhere downtown, Thoennes said. 

The hotel will be "as nice, or nicer, than any hotel in Greenville," he said. 

Thoennes and Roberson said they planned to release additional details, including an image of the proposed complex, in about three weeks. 

"It will be a stunning building," Thoennes said. "It will be like something Greenville’s never seen here." 

They said construction should take about two years. 

Thoennes and Roberson identified Thoennes’ father, Rick Thoennes, as a third partner in the project. They declined to identify two other partners. 

Thoennes said the hotel would be on the bottom of one tower, with the condominiums above it. The apartments would be on the same level as the hotel, in a separate building, he said. 

Thoennes said a market study the partners commissioned "came back with everything we were hoping for." 

Roberson said condominium residents will enjoy striking views of the mountains. 

The younger and elder Thoennes are partners in Marick Group, a Greenville-based developer of residential properties. 

Roberson was formerly the chairman and biggest shareholder of Kyrus Corp., a Taylors company that sold IBM point-of-sale systems to retailers. Roberson sold Kyrus to Agilysys Inc. in 2003 for $11.25 million in cash, plus the assumption of $20 million in debt. 

The partners bought the property from the Greenville Arena District, owner of the Bi-Lo Center, in a deal brokered by the city. The Arena District got half of the sale proceeds, while the city got the other half. 

The Arena District will use its $900,000 to pay debt on the Bi-Lo Center and make capital improvements, said Ty Thornhill, chairman of the District’s board. 

"We feel like we’ve done our duty to make sure the right thing happened with that piece of property," Thornhill said. 

Thoennes said he and partners are talking to city officials about making public improvements in the area "to make it more inviting to get to Main Street."

[GvilleSC]

You got my hopes up that we were about to hear some news on this piece of property. Dirty trick. 

Edited January 9, 2013 by GvilleSC

[ausrutherford]

Didn't the land get resold recently...

[gman430]

Hopefully this proposal stalls:

Rick Thoennes, who has owned the property for five years, said he would like to see a four-story apartment building constructed that would blend in with the historic look of Christ Church and the Greenville County Courthouse, the closest neighbors.

“It’s very preliminary at this point,” he said.

Edited June 15, 2013 by gman430

[goodbye]

Interesting. I wouldn't be very upset about that if he hadn't already revealed his grand vision for multiple towers on this property.

[GvilleSC]

Could that even makes sense for how much that land is worth?

[deltad22]

What a complete waste of land that would be.  I understand the issues with getting in and out of the parcel of land, but come on!   Will a real developer please stand up and make something meaningful with this lot.  I cant imagine the city would be ok with a 4 story apt. building.  

[goodbye]

City leaders really need to have a long-term plan in place to regulate growth in the downtown area. They should consider the fact that prime commercial property in the "highrise district" is limited and unless they don't mind highrises in other parts of downtown, then they'll eventually face a potentially critical development dilemma.

[gs3]

Oh geesh.  A 4 story development on that site?  What a joke.  When will Greenville developers start thinking in a "city" frame of mind and stop thinking in a "Mayberry" frame of mind?

[scgubers]

Oh geesh.  A 4 story development on that site?  What a joke.  When will Greenville developers start thinking in a "city" frame of mind and stop thinking in a "Mayberry" frame of mind?

This is completely incorrect. Mind you before the recession major development after major development was planned by the very same developers. Massive towers, all with a "city" frame of mind. Money was easy to find and the land was relatively cheap, so why not dream big? Then the recession came and the developer's plans all flopped. Now they're fatigued and ready to capitalize on their expenses. Banks are loaning money to mid sized developments, specifically apartments. It has nothing to do with a frame of mind, but what banks and the market are demanding. 

[cutiger]

I'm hearing that this project plan is moving forward. 4 story apartments and a 5 story parking garage. I haven't seen a site plan yet.

[vicupstate]

I'm hearing that this project plan is moving forward. 4 story apartments and a 5 story parking garage. I haven't seen a site plan yet.

Why wouldn't the existing garage be used instead? 

[gman430]

Sounds nothing short of a big yawn to me. Hopefully the DRB says no.

Edited December 5, 2013 by gman430

[motonenterprises]

The city is probably just tired of this spot being empty. None of the big plans have ever panned out. Would definitely like to see something larger there, but it is what it is I guess.

Edited December 5, 2013 by motonenterprises

[gman430]

Soil driller now on site: