±

Charlotte Knights AAA Ballpark in Third Ward

1,843 posts in this topic

Posted

As the minor league stadium is under construction, with the agreements signed with the county, the discussion on the design and construction and impacts of the stadium should be discussed in this thread.

The original thread for the baseball stadium in uptown and the plans for [bearden] Park in the area is archived here:

http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.ph...3549&st=780

The past discussion on whether major league or minor league will be built in Charlotte is in the following thread:

http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=20722

Here is a recent news article on the construction plans, which are targeting Spring 2009 for completion:

http://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/stori...4558400^1490154

Here is a rezoning that reveals the siteplan for the baseball stadium. The rezoning is simply for a technicality for accessing the site, so it is not a showstopper.

http://www.charmeck.org/Departments/Planni...ns/2007-136.htm

The details and tentative renderings for Charlotte Center City Property's campaign to get this stadium built in 3rd Ward can be found here:

http://www.charlottecentercity.org/nav.cfm...&subcat=137

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 

Posted (edited)

FINALLY! I've been watching survey crews and others doing this and that on the site. I didn't realize they would begin right now. I have to admit I am more happy that they can finally start on the park. That element of this whole deal will come together quickly (though it will be ringed with construction to the east, west, and south! No matter, I'm hopeful that I'll be walking the pooch through Third Ward Park no later than Spring if they have started the stadium, maybe sooner!

Edited by Charlotte_native

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

It's really hard to believe they are going to complete it in this timeline.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

It's really hard to believe they are going to complete it in this timeline.

Stadium? Who knows, but I would assume building an outdoor facility like this could be done in 2 years. Especially with site work basically done other than grading. I don't care at all about baseball (sorry, I don't) but really think it will be fun on easy days at work to call friends, play hookie, buy cheap tickets, and join the festivities.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Is it in stone that it's going to be 10,000 seats? How stupid are these people? This is ridiculously small for this population! Come on! This isn't Durham. I'm thinking 15,000 minimum.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Is it in stone that it's going to be 10,000 seats? How stupid are these people? This is ridiculously small for this population! Come on! This isn't Durham. I'm thinking 15,000 minimum.

Take a read through the thread. Perhaps they can add some, but there are site constraints that affect the seating and size of the facility.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I certainly hope that IF sometime down the line MLB came along, the stadium could be expanded to 35k or so. That aside, this looks great, and it really will add to the amenities and attractions in third ward. :thumbsup: Here's the rendering and the site plan:

stadium_rendering_lg.jpg

site_plan_lg.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Maybe getting ahead of myself, but how cool would if be if Green's Lunch was named as the Official Hot Dog of the new ballpark. It would be a tribute to its Third Ward roots, and would give a nice hometown feel.

The current concessions in Ft. Mill are kind of generic. MLB parks frequently offer a local twist to the food offered at ballparks, and there is no reason this should be any different.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Is it in stone that it's going to be 10,000 seats? How stupid are these people? This is ridiculously small for this population! Come on! This isn't Durham. I'm thinking 15,000 minimum.

10K seats is a good number for a minor league team, it keeps the stadium and the fans in a smaller more intimate setting and thereby makes the games much more fun and increases fan involvement in the game itself. Besides, if you look at the numbers in the article, with 72 home games, even the league leading team (Lousiville) isn't quite at 10,000 fans per game. Finally, an occasional sold out game does wonders to creating buzz, desire to see future games, and increasing the fanbase itself.

As to an expandable stadium, there is seemingly no room at this site for such a thing, and would better served by a new venue anyway - this field is for a minor league team and doesn't really need to be larger, and also would not likely interfere with a major league stadium nearby should one ever locate to CLT.

Edited by nowensone

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

If only we had the grid network represented in that first pic. :blink:

I'm kind of hoping that MLB doesn't come to Charlotte. It seems that a minor league park would serve Charlotte just as well. Likewise I think the city's residents are happy with having the Checkers instead of the Hurricanes for hockey. I do wish the 10K number was a little higher though, but perhaps they will see the need or at least the future need and plan accordingly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I have to say, that I'm disappointed with the siteplan. Why do the need that pull in with surface parking spaces along MLK? Why not do a pull in that is part of the street like Imaginon did?

While it seems to make sense to at least keep the same number of seats as their current stadium (10,000), it isn't clear why they aren't at least making better use of the space they have to provide more seats along the 1st and 3rd baselines. It seems to me that that section along 4th street is a total waste of some prime land. What is it, first of all, that is along 4th street with all the squares and the rainbow at the end, is that seating? Why is there no seating directly abutting the outfield on the 4th street side, around the curve? It seems to me, they should provide that seating along the 1st and 3rd baseline sections, all the way to the end, and then in that section around the curve direction behind the outfield.

They could have then left that 1.5 acre site along 4th Street for office or residential development or at least air right development. They could have offered some of the stadium space to the office tenants to sweeten the deal. Maybe it all would have complicated everything too much. But I think the only 'small' part of site is the shortest dimension between Mint and Graham, but they have more than enough space on the other dimension to add a year-round use.

Also, I'm really burned up that after all of us saying they need to put street retail space on the outside of the stadium, it doesn't look like they are even trying to do that anywhere.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Well, none of us can say that we weren't warned that this would happen. Metro.m has stated several times that this is the unfortunate way that sports facilities end up in this town. I find that extremely discouraging considering the chance for the perimeter of this facility to be chock full of street level retail but instead it may be true that this will end up being just like the Panther's stadium. I hope for the city's sake that retail will end up being a part of the end result. I have been for baseball up to this point, but if it ends up being JUST a facility for baseball and nothing else then I refuse to support it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I'm not a fan of the site plan at all. If the space is too small, it's too small. Seems like we're losing park land to end up with a less than adequete baseball stadium, not a great trade off. I'd love the ballpark to be uptown, but it should be a showplace...not a thing they've settled for.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I'm not a fan of the site plan at all. If the space is too small, it's too small. Seems like we're losing park land to end up with a less than adequete baseball stadium, not a great trade off. I'd love the ballpark to be uptown, but it should be a showplace...not a thing they've settled for.

From what i understand they are still working on the design and will be for about three more months... Im not saying that the plan will be exactly what we want... but everyone is critizing a plan that isnt definite and possibly not even close to what will be built.. so why wont you all be patient and maybe just a little positve about the future stadium/park that we are privileged to have in our center city.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

^ Only if we can be sure that the next 3 months will see some positive ironing out of the plans, I would not assume that patience will beget such an outcome, while b!tching often does. :D I am fine with the 10K seating capacity, I think it will make for a more intimate and community oriented ball park, though agreed that the retail is a must.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I'm criticizing the overarching elements. Finalizing a plan is not the same as developing the general design strategy. Those major things, like whether they are going to try to fit other uses on the site are done very early. This is a siteplan include in a zoning petition, so it has a reasonable chance of being mostly final.

I don't think that early pessism was much of a warning of anything, as it included other warnings of every other possible negative scenario, such as the creation of a dead zone. Now, we can say confidently that this will be far from a dead zone, with so many residential towers and office towers going up nearby. But at that time, there was a strong possibility that this project could have included retail, as the people who made this plan happen (Michael Smith at CCP) are also pushing heavily for street retail in other parts of downtown. It made absolute sense to expect that they would at least try to include it here. At this point, it is an error by those civic leaders that CAN be rectified. I just hope the city council, who have been more critical of this project, can step up and request they at least try to meet the goals of the UMUD zone they are in.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I think it's a little early to be overly critical of the site plan. The main purpose of the rezoning is to allow for vehicular loading area access on MLK. Afterall, they have to be able to unload food concessions somewhere at the stadium. The other change being sought it to "reserve the right to subdivide and create lots within the site" without limitations on setbacks except for at the street. This seems to indicate that the land along Fourth Street will be developed. I think it's entirely plausible that the Knights are focused on getting their stadium built. Retail and restaurants can always be added later. Besides, ecomonically I don't think that retail or a restaurant could survive in that location right now. It's too far removed from day workers and there's not enough residents. Shop owners would starve. I'm willing to bet that in two years you'll see a restaurant/bar in the outfield with an observation deck and other retail filling in the block. In two years Catalyst, Twelve, and the park will be complete -- then retail has a chance of making a go of it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Considering that the retail spaces in the last sports-related project to be built (the arena) sat vacant for 2+ years, I can certainly understand if the Knights are hesitant to include retail plans in the design--especially if it involves more $$$ to create retail floorplans, rather than just having a vast open space with a wall fronting the sidewalk. However, I think they'd be safe (and wise) to include retail plans along the side that faces the park. Other than that, I really wouldn't fault them for making the other sides solid walls--for the time being.

Edited by geekUSA1981

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

How old is that picture of the stadium though? The site plan that is posted just below it is from December 2005, well before any of the land transfer was finalized (or even officially proposed if I remember correctly). I knew they had selected an architectural firm but wasn't aware of any new renderings just yet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

How old is that picture of the stadium though? The site plan that is posted just below it is from December 2005, well before any of the land transfer was finalized (or even officially proposed if I remember correctly). I knew they had selected an architectural firm but wasn't aware of any new renderings just yet.

Just a guess, but I believe you will see the outer edges of the stadium be iron gates, which will open at the end of the game to allow for easy egress for attendees. Retail as part of the building itself will probably be limited to under stand concessions, and maybe a team shop, probably around the corner of Mint and MLK. Planning views for the surrounding sites call for mixed use residental over retail, low rise, maybe 4 - 6 stories. Think of the land between Poplar - Mint, 3rd - 4th. Also the south east corner of MLK and Graham, and across the street from the stadium on Graham. Between 4th and Trade on Graham will be the Amtak Station complex which has retail, and the land surrounding the Presto Grill has plans nearing completion that will also be mixed use. The 12 complex with the condos over the hotel will have ground floor retail as well.

Current Knight Stadium has long sloping stands and huge concourses. Do not expect that here. These will be steeper stands, and the 2nd deck will be covering the lower level more, and have more seats.

UD

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

The land swap is in place so we're getting a better park location and a revitalized 2nd ward. Thats what I cared most about. If this thing is not wrapped in retail or some other type of pedestrian interaction then scrap baseball and sell this land to developers!!! I will hold out until we see some more concrete details, but if nothing changes then this is a big missed opportunity for uptown.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

How old is that picture of the stadium though? The site plan that is posted just below it is from December 2005, well before any of the land transfer was finalized (or even officially proposed if I remember correctly). I knew they had selected an architectural firm but wasn't aware of any new renderings just yet.

The Odell drawings are old. Those renderings are from when there was a push to get the stadium in Wilmore/Southend. Ryan Homes are builidng condo's called 'the block' at that location right now. I wouldn't assume the new stadium will look anything like that rendering.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

What type of retail are people looking for at the stadium? Bars? Clothing? Convenience? Grocery? I'm not opposing, I'm just ignorant, so let me know what you're thinking. I agree with the earlier poster -- even in 2 years if/when the stadium is done, I think it will be too early for retail (whatever that is) in that area.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

To answer your question the point isn't in the particular retail but rather that sports venues create huge dead areas where they are created. That is because they are single use facilities that sit empty and closed most hours of the day, most days of the year. People who are interested in tax payer subsidized sports will say otherwise but there never has been a case where a sports facility did much for the area around it despite the promises. Downtown Charlotte is not developing into a real city center, but rather an office & entertainment park with homes that cater to just one or two demographics.

It was hoped the baseball stadium would at least address this by including some kind of retail element so we don't end up with for long sides that are void of activity most of the time. That does not seem to be the case so far with this design.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

What type of retail are people looking for at the stadium? Bars? Clothing? Convenience? Grocery? I'm not opposing, I'm just ignorant, so let me know what you're thinking. I agree with the earlier poster -- even in 2 years if/when the stadium is done, I think it will be too early for retail (whatever that is) in that area.

I think we are looking for anthing that can fill small slots like they have at the base of Bobcats Arena or in some of the parking decks. Considering the development coming all around this stadium, Novare's projects, a couple other residential towers within 2 blocks, 3rd Ward Park, and the number of office workers that work within a block or two and the many that park past this block and will walk past this stadium going to and from work, not including some street activity is a missed opportunity.

Since downtown has been getting such a variety of new facilities, residential condos, schools, museums, plazas, parks, etc., better planning for each site is important. If they don't add any retail to this it won't be the end of anything for 3rd Ward: Trademark, Novare, 300 South Tryon (2 stories of retail), and others are adding a decent amount of retail and restuarant that will surround the park, and Gateway is thriving, at least 2 more projects within a block or so might be announced this year, but a bit more certainly wouldn't hurt. I personally would love to see cafes and other on-street dining options around the park and this site fronts a large portion of it. So far the other three sides (if a development gets off the ground on one of the Preferred Parking sites on the North border of the park) will all have commercial or retail elements fronting the park.

Edited by Charlotte_native

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

±