Charlotte Knights AAA Ballpark in Third Ward

[kermit]

Is it just me, or does anybody else wonder where all of these new fans are going to come from? I actually like the proposal for the new stadium and I think the price point is great, but it's hard to imagine a lot more families driving into the city during week nights for baseball games. I don't mean to be overly negative, but it seems like some of the suburban population considers it an impertinance to get in an out of Uptown during games.

Keep in mind there is a substantial number of folks who live in the inner-ring burbs (Noda, Elizabeth, Sedgefield, Madison Park, Park rd, Southpark, Dilworth, WIlmore etc.) who are VERY reluctant to drive down to Ft Mill at rush hour for a ball game (I am one of those folks). A new intown stadium should have the benefit of a transit option to bypass 6pm traffic on 77 -- with a bit of luck this transit option will extend all the way to U City a year or two after the new ballpark opens. The intown stadium will also make baseball more convenient to a substantial number of suburbanites in N Meck as well.

Also significant is that the Checkers manage to consistently draw 6,000 on weeknights and 10-12,000 on weekends for minor league hockey -- a sport that has many fewer cultural attachments to the region than baseball. In addition Checkers tickets are more expensive than what the Knights are proposing (and don't even get me started on beer prices at the arena).

Disclaimer: While I believe that uptown baseball is, on balance, a good thing for Charlotte. I am uncomfortable will $11 million more in public subsidy. Having said that, I don't see it as an inappropriate use of the hotel / tourism tax money which must be spent on projects which benefit the tourism industry.

[queensguy06]

There's a good article on CNBC's website today about urban baseball stadiums boosting development and business around them. Granted, the article focuses on MLB as opposed to AAA baseball, and while some of the aspects obviously do not translate one to one, this certainly strengthens the argument for the Knights in an otherwise desolate area of Uptown.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/46923563/

[cityboi]

I have a question. Does Charlotte have a lot of local based non-profit foundations? I ask because it seems like to me Charlotte could use Greensboro's model for its downtown ballpark which was built in 2005. Since Greensboro had a tough time getting taxpayers to approve building a ballpark, Greensboro's ballpark was built privately and paid for by local foundations. Greensboro basically did what Memphis did to build its AAA ballpark. The Knights need to figure out a way to get rid of some of these hurdles and look at how Greensboro and Memphis built their ballparks. If Greensboro and Memphis can do it, Charlotte can too. I think it will be in important development tool for Charlotte. Durham, Greensboro and Winston-Salem are seeing projects pop up next to their downtown ballparks. An urban apartment complex is already under construction across from NewBridge Bank Park in Greensboro and a full service grocery store is on the way. A second phase could include a mid-rise or high-rise over looking Greensboro's ballpark. A mixed-use residential project is currently being planned for land next to BB&T ballpark in Winston-Salem and Durham has seen its share of investment with office space and a performing arts center. Charlotte needs to make this happen. Yes I would prefer a stadium that can be upgraded to major league standards but it looks like that's not going to happen. So either Charlotte has the uptown AAA ballpark or no downtown ballpark at all. Honestly it looks like Major League Baseball won't be coming to Charlotte for a long time anyway.

AutoZone Ballpark in Memphis

NewBridge Bank Park in Greensboro

Apartments going up next to Greensboro ballpark. Future phase could include retail and a high-rise.

BB&T Ballpark in Winston-Salem

Durham Bulls Athletic Park

buildings popping up around DBAP

Edited April 3, 2012 by cityboi

[Urbanity]

^Charlotte has one of the (if not the) highest concentrations of non-profits and foundations in the state, but despite the $11m ask - I don't think money is the real issue here.

As a big cheerleader and proponent for Downtown baseball, I think the lethargy of this project (thanks to Jerry Reese) has made this less of an necessary impact project (and maybe now a questionable one at that) in many eyes (Citizen, Corporation and Civic Leaders). With the Epicenter, NC Music Factory, Culture Campus (with three new museums and performance space) and even to a small degree - The NASCAR HOF. Add the Panters, Checkers and Bobcats already playing in the downtown, Charlotte doesn't really need a baseball stadium as a neighborhood catalyst.

I think a larger issue now facing the city is to get people to stay (live /work) downtown versus just play - and that calls for a next stage level of amenities: Completion of the Romare Bearden and First Ward Park, Streetcar through downtown and completion of BLE to UNC Charlotte, Gateway station with connections to the airport, and Shopping.

Don't misunderstand - I WANT baseball in downtown, but I think downtown doesn't need it as much as other downtown wishlist items that seems to grow less wish and more need as the city grows.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Urbanity

[Urbanity]

City staff recommends giving $9 million for Knights ballpark

Still has to go before the City's economic Development committee for a vote (where I'm sure it will pass) and the full city council (where I'm not as certain).

Interesting that staff decided on a recommendation for $9m vs. the original $11m ask. No details on the cause of the difference.

Read more here:

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2012/04/04/3150906/city-staff-recommends-giving-9.html#storylink=cpy

[ah59396]

I actually really like this plan. Especially the part where the Knights don't get the money until 2015. I.E. after they are already generating revenue in Uptown.

[HopHead]

City staff recommends giving $9 million for Knights ballpark

Still has to go before the City's economic Development committee for a vote (where I'm sure it will pass) and the full city council (where I'm not as certain).

Interesting that staff decided on a recommendation for $9m vs. the original $11m ask. No details on the cause of the difference.

Read more here:

http://www.charlotte...l#storylink=cpy

I'm sure Jerry Reese can find a way to turn this into another lawsuit...

In addition to this, the Knights indicated today that they have signed on two longer term corporate sponsors as part of their agreement with the city. No names were released yet, but I'm guessing one of them is probably Duke Energy. Maybe Chiquita too?

[49er]

By the time this thing gets built MLB attendance in small markets will have devolved so far that it probably would not need to be expanded to attract a team

[dubone]

Well, the economic mood is picking up, so I bet it is possible they can line up the financing and the sponsors they need to cover the rest.

I think $9m is a pretty modest sum, especially since they will easily recoup that money. I still don't fully understand what this whole thing is about spurring development, as there are not that many parcels left that couldn't also be theoretically spurred by Bearden Park, the streetcar, Gateway Station, etc. The arena didn't really fill up the parcels around it as well as hoped.

[Urbanity]

According to a Knights Press release issued yesterday the Knights have secured two long-term corporate sponsorship which was a requirement for the lease agreement. The CBJ is reporting that one of these is for a naming rights partner.

In related news, Jerry Reese has been sighted shaking his fist and talking to himself as he heads back to the courthouse...

[southslider]

In related news, Jerry Reese has been sighted shaking his fist and talking to himself as he heads back to the courthouse...

Meanwhile, voters shake their heads, questioning where these millions can be found, when the City is simultaneously too broke to afford a capital program without a tax increase.

Reports are that the baseball subsidy can be funded roughly half from tourist taxes, plus another half from the incremental increase in tax base surrounding the stadium. So defenders can then claim citywide taxpayers aren't paying for it (if you ignore the diversion of the incremental increase to fund citywide needs).

And if that's such a good model (leveraging localized ROI), it seems streetcar (another development-focused investment) could also be funded by localized tax assessments and TIF, not a citywide tax increase.

My point is, sure, there is nuance to how the stadium can be subsidized, that makes it a wise investment with high return and little risk for taxpayers. But the political reality is that the voters see little distinction between the Arena, Whitewater, NASCAR, and Streetcar. And personally, I'm worried this latest "handout" will only further risk passage of the City's bond package.

[Urbanity]

^ I disagree with any statements that a $4.5m TIF payable in 2014/2015 from future development around the stadium is going to have much of an effect on funds that would be directed to other citywide services.

Overall though I don't think most people can appreciate that and ultimately share your concern about how this could affect the proposed bond package which could do so much for the city.

[dubone]

Well, if the plan had continued as promised years ago, where the funding that came from the county would be paired with private funds, then that would be 4.5m that would have likely come anyway from any development and been general funds for use on other projects. There is a lot of public and semi-public investment in this 10 square block area (park, NFL, Gateway Station, streetcar, Queen's University reuse of the courthouse), that the land would be developed anyway. Not to mention that in the current slump, it is hard to imagine baseball actually being the catalyst. That is, it would both be developed or stay fallow based on overall real estate market, independent of baseball, as this area already has enough momentum to get the development if the real estate market were growing again.

There are roughly 10 acres of developable land, including the nooks and crannies around the Duke substation and the block next to the future Greyhound/rental car/ parking deck project that I believe is part of the PPP for Gateway Station. That doesn't include any development parcels that may be a part of the stadium itself along 4th.

What I do like, is the idea that AAA baseball takes up the core of the wasteland in the area, reducing the supply of land to the smaller parcels to be developed with higher density.

It will be a very good thing if they add retail space all along the outside of the stadium under the seating, but I am skeptical since the arena's retail spaces haven't done that great, and even city projects like the convention center and the NASCAR HOF have eschewed street retail for cost savings. I wasted my time in multiple charettes about the city plan to make Brevard some amazing urban shopping street connecting the convention center with the arena, and then the city dumped a big deuce onto half that street by only putting a single retail space (Buffalo Wild Wings) into a 2 block section.

This section, however, could actually have a bunch of cool sports bars that could take the place of some of the tailgating activity that currently happens on football sundays that will be lost to this development. But hopefully it will also have potential for neighborhood supporting retail, too.

[carolinagarnet]

A few restaurants and sports bars at the base of the stadium might complement the bars at the French Quarter and maybe even some of the higher end retaurants at the Duke Energy Center. I know straight retail can be difficult to justify in areas with low residential density, but you could create a third nightlife district that might look somewhat like small scale version of Chicago's Wrigleyville. I think this would allow the 5th Street bars to act as the heavy dancing/drinking area, Epicenter to act as the out-of-town/clubby area, and Third Ward to act as a laid back sports bar area. Let's hope if the stadium goes through that they strongly consider this possibility.

[Niner National]

A few restaurants and sports bars at the base of the stadium might complement the bars at the French Quarter and maybe even some of the higher end retaurants at the Duke Energy Center. I know straight retail can be difficult to justify in areas with low residential density, but you could create a third nightlife district that might look somewhat like small scale version of Chicago's Wrigleyville. I think this would allow the 5th Street bars to act as the heavy dancing/drinking area, Epicenter to act as the out-of-town/clubby area, and Third Ward to act as a laid back sports bar area. Let's hope if the stadium goes through that they strongly consider this possibility.

You're forgetting Music Factory.

Until we add several thousand residents to Uptown and surrounding neighborhoods, I'm not sure Uptown can sustain another nightlife district.

[carolinagarnet]

You're forgetting Music Factory.

Until we add several thousand residents to Uptown and surrounding neighborhoods, I'm not sure Uptown can sustain another nightlife district.

I can see the argue about the area cannibalizing drinkers, but I don't know that it would compete with Music Factory or Epicenter at all. Those districts draw the kind of people that are looking for the opposite of low-key sports bars. Similarly, the kind of people going to Dandelion and Prohibition are looking to dance or mingle. What I envision is a much more laid back scene, similar to why you might find in the French Quarter or Dilworth Grill. If anything, the area would compete with the bars in South End, Elizabeth, and the other surrounding neighborhoods. That said, I tend to think that clustering bars turns an area into more of a desination. Given how packed every single bar in Uptown and Montford are on Friday and Saturday nights, there might be a case for spreading some of the crowd to Third Ward.

[nonillogical]

I can see the argue about the area cannibalizing drinkers, but I don't know that it would compete with Music Factory or Epicenter at all. Those districts draw the kind of people that are looking for the opposite of low-key sports bars. Similarly, the kind of people going to Dandelion and Prohibition are looking to dance or mingle. What I envision is a much more laid back scene, similar to why you might find in the French Quarter or Dilworth Grill. If anything, the area would compete with the bars in South End, Elizabeth, and the other surrounding neighborhoods. That said, I tend to think that clustering bars turns an area into more of a desination. Given how packed every single bar in Uptown and Montford are on Friday and Saturday nights, there might be a case for spreading some of the crowd to Third Ward.

If retail spaces are built into the stadium and surrounding new developments like we hope they will be, then the first wave of tenants almost definitely WILL be bars and restaurants. Unfortunately the kind of places that tend to make the best laid-back sports bars are not brand spanking new retail spaces, and since there's nothing left to really re-purpose in Third Ward now, that's all there will be for some time and it will probably take a while to settle into the kind of vibe you envision. Hopefully plenty of residential gets built in and those bars can get adopted by locals, as opposed to bars that hope to purely cater to game day visitors.

[ah59396]

From the magical world of twitter land....

Warren Cooksey ‏ @WCooksey

Dep City Mgr Kimble states new Knights proposal: $522,000/yr from hotel tax for 20 yrs, $2.5 mil over 20 yrs frm stadium prop. taxes.

Natalie English ‏ @cltlobbyist

New city staff proposal: City contribution will stretch to 20 yrs. The TIF will be only on property in block of baseball stadium. #cltcc

Natalie English ‏ @cltlobbyist

Under this proposal, the #cltcc contribution would be $8.5 million, down from $9 million proposed on 4/4. #Knights requested $11 million.

Natalie English ‏ @cltlobbyist

The motion passed 4 -1 and will go to the full council. #cltcc #Knights

So it looks like this thing has been trimmed some more and will likely be a "go".

Edited April 19, 2012 by ah59396

[HopHead]

Here's a little specifics on where the $8.5 million would come from:

1) The current hotel/motel taxes would produce $6M of that total.

2) The remaining $2.5M would come from a portion of new property taxes generated by the stadium and a proposed on-site hotel.

I'm curious about where this on-site hotel would be. Anyone ever see where this me located? I know we all want a W Hotel to complement the uptown Ritz-Carlton, but some how I can't see it being built here.

Edited April 20, 2012 by dbull75

[dubone]

I love that the Knights will pretty much be given something, but that it is still predominantly on their heads to make it happen. I know times are different, but seriously, they said last time no new public money. But if this is the last little bit to get them over the hump, then so be it. But at some point we will need to actually hold them to their deadlines. The only thing that makes it little rush is that the market would not likely absorb the land for development any time soon anyway (short of some land banking/parking lot situation). So why not give them some time to possibly make it happen.

I do like that they'll integrate some other uses on the land like a hotel, which can also serve to add some hotel-motel tax money in, and further improve our capacity of hotel rooms in the city.

I am VERY pleased that the city will not TIF-away the whole neighborhood, as there are plenty of other projects like Gateway Station and streetcar that might deserve TIF funding more than a AAA stadium next to an NFL stadium.

[cltbwimob]

I hope this plan withers away. I am not against the Knights moving to Charlotte, but I am against the location of the stadium (Southend/NoDa would be more appropriate), and some of the terms of the deal. Additionally somehow the team that needed very little help from public funds is now requiring half or more of the stadium to be funded by public money. Also, it looks like 3 or 4 MLB teams may be up for grabs when you consider the talk about a 2 team expansion and the fact that the Rays and the A's are beating the new staium/relocation drum. It seems that if this goes through, Charlotte will have little chance a getting a major league franchise which should be the ultimate goal.

All-in-all, it seems as if the citizens of Charlotte are getting a raw deal with this one, and for a city that prides itself for being able to play in the big leagues (no pun intended) it sure is thinking small on this one.

Edited April 22, 2012 by cltbwimob

[jednc]

I hope this plan withers away. I am not against the Knights moving to Charlotte, but I am against the location of the stadium (Southend/NoDa would be more appropriate), and some of the terms of the deal. Additionally somehow the team that needed very little help from public funds is now requiring half or more of the stadium to be funded by public money. Also, it looks like 3 or 4 MLB teams may be up for grabs when you consider the talk about a 2 team expansion and the fact that the Rays and the A's are beating the new staium/relocation drum. It seems that if this goes through, Charlotte will have little chance a getting a major league franchise which should be the ultimate goal.

All-in-all, it seems as if the citizens of Charlotte are getting a raw deal with this one, and for a city that prides itself for being able to play in the big leagues (no pun intended) it sure is thinking small on this one.

I can't shake the same nagging feeling. This is nothing against the Knights at all...but I wish there was a "group" pursuing MLB in Charlotte. I feel like this stadium will lock us down in the minors for the foreseeable future. Charlotte was considered too small for the NBA and the NFL. I know the # of games is different in baseball and I've heard all the other arguments against, but what's the harm in trying?

[AuLukey]

I'm sorry, maybe I’m the only one holding this opinion, but Charlotte is way too "bandwagon" to sustainably keep a MLB team. Any year the Panthers or Bobcats have a terrible record, so too do the attendance numbers. I'm aware that the Bobcats are managing to keep attendance numbers decent despite their dismal season so far, but I feel like having such a poor history of city/team pride really holds Charlotte back. I remember seeing games in Chicago when the Bears were one of the league’s worst, but the stadium was still packed. Yes, I'm keenly aware this is not Chicago, but I get the feeling that a diehard fan is a diehard fan no matter where you go. Too many people in Charlotte jump on the "Go Panthers" bandwagon on their great years and then write them off the very next season. I feel like I'm at a tennis match when I go to Panthers games. A few select people will jump up and celebrate for a first down, or hell, even positive yardage, but the fact that most people just see (or at least act like) the games as a method of entertainment is so ridiculous to me. I'm hoping that the emergence of college football at UNCC will change this mentality over time, but I honestly cannot see enough people getting behind an MLB team to keep it going in the worst of times too. Charlotte lacks that local passion (please look outside of the members of this board when considering that fact.)

I'd love to be wrong, I would. If I had any hesitation about the matter, I wouldn't be writing this post. I feel like Charlotte's market and the general demeanor of this city just doesn't go far enough to support a MLB team. Our nation's greatest pastime doesn't seem so grand anymore; I just don't feel like Charlotte can get behind it enough to make it sustainable.

[HopHead]

^Generally speaking I agree with your take... Baseball is much harder to sustain considering it's 81 games per year. You'll see just as many people at a Bobcats/Nets Monday game as you would a Charlotte MLB team/Royals game during the week. Not to mention if it were a team like the Rays to relocate here, the only sellouts you'd get would likely be when the Red Sox and Yankees come to town. And lets be honest, do any us want to be on the hook for $500M (which is probably what an MLB stadium would cost) so you can fulfill the needs of Yankees and Red Sox fans? No thanks. People may complain about the arena being built downtown, but at least it hosts a multitude of different events. MLB here would be a disaster. I'm sorry. I just don't see how it would be feasible anytime soon.

Edited April 23, 2012 by dbull75

[New Name]

^+2. Charlotte is extremely concerned with "the next big thing" and "the winning team." This city lacks a common identity to build tradition, too. A baseball is all about tradition. That's why minor league is right... the players are not your teams identity because they are usually in rehab or development roles.