Charlotte Knights AAA Ballpark in Third Ward

[ah59396]

I'm fairly certain you can supplement "any recent expansion city" in place of Charlotte. It's not Charlotte that is the issue; creepy stalker-like dedication to a sports franchise takes time. Geez guys, even the Panthers have only been here since '95. I've always said, you need at least a generation for a team to truly capture a market. I was 11 when the Panthers got here and regardless of whether they are 15-1 or 1-15, I cheer for them. So do all my close friends that grew up here. As we have children (then force them to cheer for the Panthers regardless of their wants or desires) you will see that tract of bandwagon fans continue to shift.

But it's unfair to say "Charlotte has lousy fans" then compare it to say, the Bears. That team has been in that town since 1919. They've had a little time to saturate the market.

With that said, I'll say what I always do about MLB baseball in Charlotte. It wouldn't work.

[cltbwimob]

-"You'll see just as many people at a Bobcats/Nets Monday game as you would a Charlotte MLB team/Royals game during the week. "

I doubt that. Milwaukee, for example, is a smaller metro area than Charlotte yet landed in the top ten in attendance last year and currently holds a top ten spot this year. The Bobcats are the most horrid team in what may be the least popular sport of the major 4. They average less than 15k per game. It's an apples to oranges comparison...If you want to compare MLB to the NBA lets look at the Hornets. They averaged approximately 24000 per game for several years. Since the Colisseum could only hold that many, that means that 24000 people were coming to weeknight games (360+ sold out games). All this happened when the city was much smaller than it is now, mind you.

-"A baseball is all about tradition. That's why minor league is right... the players are not your teams identity because they are usually in rehab or development roles."

First, the Cardinals are still the Cardinals even without Mark McGuire, the Orioles are still the Orioles without Cal Ripken, the Red Sox are still the Red Sox without Roger Clemens etc...to imply that a baseball team's identity at the MLB level is only a function of the talent in the starting lineup is misleading (though I am sure that is not what you meant to imply). Second, there is virtually no identity in Minor League ball especially for a city itself. If you could give me the names of 10 AAA teams outside Charlotte without looking them up, I'd be impressed, but I would be willing to bet that you could name most if not all MLB teams and the cities they represent without thinking hard about it. Major League Baseball helps provide major league identity.

As far as winning teams go, look at attendance records for the Panthers. I have only found one instance where they finished outside the top ten in attendance...and they finished 12th that year. The Panthers certainly aren't a great football team most years, and many years they aren't even good; yet BoA stadium on Average is 98-99% sold out on Sundays (Also cf Hornets attendance vs winning seasons). For a team to do well in Charlotte in terms of butts in chairs, the secret formula has thus far been poven by both the Hornets and the Panthers to be: strong sense of community, and a good marketing campaign. In other words, Charlotte loves it's teams if they first love Charlotte. Provide no love to the city (see Bobcats...I know they are starting to come around) and you will get no love from the city.

-"With that said, I'll say what I always do about MLB baseball in Charlotte. It wouldn't work."

I believe if it can work in Cincinatti, Kansas City, Milwaukee, and Pittsburgh, then it can work here as well. I just found out the other day that over 3.6 million people live within a 75 mile radius of Charlotte, (and these may have been based off of the 2000 Census). 75 miles is a fairly easy commute for a sporting event. The only resaon the MSA/CSA isn't larger, is because there are four other metro areas directly adjacent to the Charlotte region that likely steal some of the population that may otherwise be considered a part of the Charlotte region...As long as that is true, and as long as there is a differentiation between CSAs and MSAs, studies making statements such as the market is too small for MLB will likely be skewed and will not necessarily reflect the catchment are that Charlotte has when it comes to professional sports.

At any rate, none of us are sure whether or not this thing will pass. The way I see it, it is currently 4-4 with 3 unknowns on the city council. The 4 Democrats that voted to send it to the city council will likely vote yes; the lone vote against was a Republican, and I imagine the other Republican will follow suit; and there are currently 2 Democrat dissenters. The other 3 will likely determine the fate of this thing, with a possible veto by the mayor should it go through.

Edited April 23, 2012 by cltbwimob

[Urbanity]

BB&T signs naming-rights agreement with Charlotte Knights

[nonillogical]

I don't know how many people like me there are in Charlotte for it be a consideration, but I am not interested in going to an MLB game at all. However, a minor league game would be a fun, cheap and easy afternoon activity for me and a group of friends even though I'm not that into baseball. For the same reason I've gone to 4 Checkers games this season but only 1 Bobcats and 0 Panthers games. It just seems like a huge margin of error to try to predict attendance for an MLB team here, such that I can't imagine trying for one until people are obviously clamoring for it.

[ah59396]

the fact is, attendance is a small facet of a stable MLB team. we can predict all we want. but until someone in Metrolina comes forward with a legit proposal, 500 - 700M for a stadium, and a team willing to move...it's not going to happen. plus, Charlotte is probably 5th right now on a list of cities wanting a team. and i still think we'd have a tough time getting butts in the seats. a really tough time.

Portland

Las Vegas

Austin

Indianapolis

Charlotte

San Antonio

Vancouver

and I'm with you nonillogical, i love minor league ball. especially good ball like this. its a ridiculous value and in my opinion is a better representation of our national past time than what the majors are anyways.

Edited April 23, 2012 by ah59396

[HopHead]

BB&T signs naming-rights agreement with Charlotte Knights

I have to say, I definitely did not see BB&T becoming one of the big name sponsors for the stadium.

-"You'll see just as many people at a Bobcats/Nets Monday game as you would a Charlotte MLB team/Royals game during the week. "

I doubt that. Milwaukee, for example, is a smaller metro area than Charlotte yet landed in the top ten in attendance last year and currently holds a top ten spot this year. The Bobcats are the most horrid team in what may be the least popular sport of the major 4. They average less than 15k per game. It's an apples to oranges comparison...If you want to compare MLB to the NBA lets look at the Hornets. They averaged approximately 24000 per game for several years. Since the Colisseum could only hold that many, that means that 24000 people were coming to weeknight games (360+ sold out games). All this happened when the city was much smaller than it is now, mind you.

I think you took my post too literally regarding attendance numbers. Of course (one would hope) more than 14,000 would show up for a MLB game on Monday night. However, it's also a big difference in stadium size versus the arena (40k vs 19k). You can have 20k people show up for a game but the stadium is still half empty when it seats twice that.

[New Name]

Just curious if the list/priority was yours or someone else's? I'd say we should be #2/tied with Portland on that list.

Portland - I can see Portland getting another major league sport

Las Vegas - long time ruled out because of gambling/betting. this applies to baseball especially in my opinion.

Austin - No way for another central Texas team to work out. Rangers and Astros have market saturated.

Indianapolis - Could work, but CLT has a wider metro share. Indianapolis is isolated.

Charlotte

San Antonio - See Austin.

Vancouver - Won't happen. Montreal will be a black eye for quite some time.

*These are just my opinions.

[HopHead]

^I would put Portland and San Antonio as #1 and #2. San Antonio only has one major league franchise (and a very successful one) and a metro larger than Charlotte. Their only downfall is that they don't have the major corporate presence that may be needed. I think they only have two major Fortune 500s HQ'd there. They are also largely a military town. IMO, Charlotte is 4th or 5th on this list. I think Austin, while having some great amenities and booming economy may not be a true baseball market. Agree that Vancouver wouldn't be a market either. They'd much rather have the NBA back.

1) Portland, OR

2) San Antonio

3) Las Vegas

4) Charlotte

5) Indianapolis

6) Austin

Edited April 23, 2012 by dbull75

[ah59396]

I can't take credit for the list. Honestly I compiled that from the junk I've read over the past 5 years. I still wouldn't put us 2nd though. We are consistently ranked an already over-saturated sports market. Even if we are optimistically 3rd, that's still a long way out. The MLB is not expanding and the only team I can see leaving are the Rays. I'll take my uptown minor league ball and enjoy the crap out of it.

[southslider]

What about Raleigh-Durham? Charlotte already has two major league teams, while the Triangle just has one.

[HopHead]

What about Raleigh-Durham? Charlotte already has two major league teams, while the Triangle just has one.

I think we were just referencing the cities that always get mentioned in the media as potential homes for MLB. I'm not sure I've seen Raleigh listed before. Of course that's not say Charlotte really needs a 3rd major league team either.

The MLB is not expanding and the only team I can see leaving are the Rays. I'll take my uptown minor league ball and enjoy the crap out of it.

Exactly. Not sure MLB needs anymore teams anyways.

Edited April 23, 2012 by dbull75

[cityboi]

BB&T signs naming-rights agreement with Charlotte Knights

BB&T Bank, which is based in WInston-Salem, currently has naming rights to the downtown ballpark in Winston-Salem (BB&T Ballpark) as well as Wake Forest's football stadium (BB&T Field) Hopefully there won't be confusion with stadium names. Most baseball stadiums are either "field" "ballpark" or "park" I guess the new uptown ballpark could be called "BB&T Stadium" That would be the only way to avoid confusion with the stadiums in Winston-Salem.

Edited April 23, 2012 by cityboi

[carolinagarnet]

I think Charlotte's lack of passion is a product of its status as a boomtown. Fan passion takes time to build and without knowing the statistics, I would guess that a fairly large percentage of people in the city were not born in Charlotte. Keep in mind that the Panthers and Bobcats are both young franchises when measured against the Chicago, New York, Philadelphia, Boston, or LA pro teams. As more people move to and raise kids in Charlotte, I think the passion will continue to develop. That said, I think adding an MLB team would put us in league with Cincinnati as an oversaturated sports town. Minor league baseball may not be sexy, but it accomplishes what I think the city would realistically need out of another sports franchise Uptown.

What bothered me for a while was the possible land use for that block in the long-term, but I have a feeling there would not be significant demand for that land within the next 10 years anyway. If this spurs development in and around the Third Ward, then it seems fine. I really wish the opening of the park and the stadium were separated by more time though so we could attribute development in the area to one or the other. I have a feeling the Knights are going to take credit for anything that is built there.

[cityboi]

Eventually Major League Baseball will come to Charlotte because its one of the fastest growing markets in the United States. But its just not Charlotte's time at the moment. Your have to figure that Charlotte already has two major league sports franchise and despite Charlotte's size and growth rate, outsiders still consider Charlotte a small market for professional sports. Its a tall order for Charlotte to support three at this time, especially major league baseball where there are so many home games and so many seats to fill. Major League baseball games are not cheap and corporate support is already stretched thin with two other major league sports teams in the city during hard economic times. Now I do wish this minor league stadium was designed to expand to a major league baseball stadium. But my guess is that Charlotte has the will and the way to build a major league ballpark on another site in the future when the time comes. Remember the Charlotte Coliseum was only 15 years old before it was demolished and a new arena was built. Until then let Charlotte enjoy minor league baseball in uptown Charlotte. Minor league baseball is more fan friendly and there is not a bad seat in the house. The ballpark will also attract additional development in uptown Charlotte. We can't wait 10, 15 or more years for major league baseball while Charlotte's team is playing in South Carolina. Knights Stadium in Fort Mill will be even more outdated 10 years from now. Downtown ballparks are the norm these days.

Edited April 24, 2012 by cityboi

[southslider]

Downtown ballparks are the norm these days.

The latest fad ballparks are retro and downtown, yes. But the authentic ballparks that have lasted the longest are not. Wrigley Field is not within Chicago's downtown, and that definitely adds to the experience. For comparison, just imagine if the Family Dollar strip center on Central Avenue were turned into a ballpark. That would be a more unique experience. Charlotte used to have its ballpark in Dilworth. But now, we just want to be like everyone else.

Edited April 24, 2012 by southslider

[nonillogical]

The latest fad ballparks are retro and downtown, yes. But the authentic ballparks that have lasted the longest are not. Wrigley Field is not within Chicago's downtown, and that definitely adds to the experience. For comparison, just imagine if the Family Dollar strip center on Central Avenue were turned into a ballpark. That would be a more unique experience. Charlotte used to have its ballpark in Dilworth. But now, we just want to be like everyone else.

I can think of a lot of redevelopment ideas I would prefer for the Family Dollar area than a ballpark though.

Wrigley Field's area is still more urban than anywhere we could put a stadium and a unique historic neighborhood, so I don't think its a fair comparison in metropolis-calibre cities. Also at that age and historic significance, it certainly doesn't matter as much where the stadium is located, its an attraction in itself. In more moderate or small sized cities with new stadiums, a downtown location is definitely an incentive for casual fans who feel it adds to the experience and I can't find much fault in following that trend.

[ah59396]

I agree. The ballpark uptown is the best place. Not only does it generate more foot traffic and buzz there, but it draws the random out of town fan. When I say that, I mean the guy staying in the hotel uptown for business who attends the game on a Wednesday night because he is bored and in town. That guy is not going out of uptown to see a ballgame...at least in my opinion.

[dubone]

We end up coddling the team too much in saying that. If Dilworth/Midwood/SouthEnd is too far for the hypothetical baseball watcher, then it will be too far for the 'next' big thing that comes along. If we can think of better redevelopment ideas for the Family Dollar shopping center, same goes for 3rd Ward.

Yet, with all the height restriction rules everywhere but downtown, the opportunity cost is much higher for developing the stadium downtown. The only way this makes sense to me is if it takes up the land for 20 years and then leaves downtown and we end up with more density through that manner.

MLB is a long shot, and there are plenty of other cities that warrant it even if they were expanding. AAA baseball will be a good entertainment addition, just like the Checkers are. But we have enough sports entertainment downtown, so it is not THAT worthy of a cause to get so much more public money support.

What would we get on this land if we gave 8.5m of city money, infrastructure money and virtually free land worth $25-35m for another corporate relocation?

[southslider]

The ballpark uptown is the best place. Not only does it generate more foot traffic and buzz there, but it draws the random out of town fan. When I say that, I mean the guy staying in the hotel uptown for business who attends the game on a Wednesday night because he is bored and in town. That guy is not going out of uptown to see a ballgame...at least in my opinion.

Except that was the same logic for putting the NASCAR Hall of Fame in Uptown. Does anyone seriously think that the Hall wouldn't have done better if it had gone in Concord or even Mooresville?

So why wouldn't baseball do better closer to where more fans actually live (dense neighborhoods) and play (entertainment districts like Plaza-Midwood, South End, or even Music Factory) than where you have hotels and employment? Besides, tourists don't exactly follow minor league baseball.

[ah59396]

Except that was the same logic for putting the NASCAR Hall of Fame in Uptown. Does anyone seriously think that the Hall wouldn't have done better if it had gone in Concord or even Mooresville?

I would argue it would have done worse. The hall gets a poor reputation because they over projected their numbers. Compared to other Halls of Fame however, it does fairly well. But your kidding yourself if you think MORE people would have went to a facility like that in Concord or Mooresville.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/story/2011-10-02/sports-museums-feeling-economic-pinch/51031494/1

While that link is slightly old, when compared to other sports "Hall of Fame" buildings, we do quite well. 262,000 people would not have went to the Nascar Hall of Fame in Mooresville. No way.

But you make a valid argument on the baseball field. The only issue I really have is, say you plop that thing down in Plaza-Midwood. How do people get there? 10,000 people driving down Central, Independence and Hawthorne? Plaza-Midwood or Matthews on a Thursday evening would be a gridlocked blood bath. Southend could work but I really believe part of the reason Uptown makes sense is because the infrastructure is in place. Additionally, there are already a large cluster of hotels and, as a result, out-of-towners in uptown to supplement additional people in the stands.

[Guest]

I disagree that visitors/tourists don't go to AAA games. I live in Brooklyn, and AAA is wildly popular for Coney Island and Staten Island Visitors, as well as Atlantic City. Not to mention Myrtle Beach more locally. Its a fun, cheap, and family friendly atmosphere that caters specifically to vistors and tourists. While Tourists might not come just to see our baseball team, its another great option for them to check out after they've finished their convention, pit crew challenge, visit to the museum, enjoyable time at discovery place or imaginon. Its one more notch towards making downtown a destination for more than just eating and drinking.

[nonillogical]

So why wouldn't baseball do better closer to where more fans actually live (dense neighborhoods) and play (entertainment districts like Plaza-Midwood, South End, or even Music Factory) than where you have hotels and employment? Besides, tourists don't exactly follow minor league baseball.

Plaza Midwood is one of the healthier indy retail areas we have so I'd rather the neighborhood keep heading in that small-scale direction rather than plop down anything that may alter that momentum. I could have seen it in Southend, but I'm not sure what site we still have that would be suitable other than maybe Scaleybark Station, but that has a decent-looking development outlook already, and although I WAS a fan of the idea of putting it on the Beazer site that option is gone. Also, even though most people will be returning home after a AAA game, I think building it in an area with exactly zero hotels would surely miss out on SOME ticket sales.

Edited April 24, 2012 by nonillogical

[Urbanity]

I disagree that visitors/tourists don't go to AAA games. I live in Brooklyn, and AAA is wildly popular for Coney Island and Staten Island Visitors, as well as Atlantic City. Not to mention Myrtle Beach more locally. Its a fun, cheap, and family friendly atmosphere that caters specifically to vistors and tourists.

Being from NY myself - you and I both know that Coney Island is itself a tourist attraction, and while I have never been to the Yankees farm team on Staten Island I understand that it has incredible views of downtown Manhattan so I can understand that being a draw as well as the fact that it is a Yankee farm team...

I don't know off hand the location of the Atlantic City or Myrtle Beach stadiums but considering those are cities built for tourism I can't say I'm surprised.

Maybe I am wrong, but my perception of the general tourist perception of Charlotte is that we are not yet a big enough "it" destination to visit and thus they are less likely to book extended visits here and explore all the neighborhoods outside of the central ones. If the stadium is downtown I think they would be more likely to attend a game then if it was out in a neighborhood not in walking distance to their hotel.

The other aspect we are forgetting here is that if the stadium does get built downtown there is a greater chance for Charlotte to land college baseball tournaments which is a whole other group of tourism dollars. I know there is talk of the ACC baseball games in particular if the stadium gets built. That's the main reason (along with the possibility of one off concerts) that the Chamber is probably in favor of the idea - not just because the baseball stadium as a Knights venue makes sense, but a baseball stadium downtown that can be leveraged for other events makes sense.

Just my two cents.

[cityboi]

The baseball stadium in downtown Winston-Salem is called "BB&T Ballpark" and it looks like Charlotte's uptown baseball stadium will also be called "BB&T Ballpark". But i'm sure Winston-Salem is delighted that its bank is slapping its name on a ballpark in the hometown of its megabank rivals.

http://www.charlotte...n-ballpark.html

Edited April 25, 2012 by cityboi

[HopHead]

Per an article from WCNC, the rendering of the new Knights stadium that has been circulating is actually copied from Huntington Park in Columbus, OH. Knights officials have said there will be a lot of similarities between the new stadium and Columbus' park, so they just used it for the time being. New renderings should be out soon.

http://www.wcnc.com/news/local/No-Accident-Charlotte-ballpark-rendering-is-actually-Columbus-stadium-148757805.html