[gatesofmemphis]

I think #1, Overton Square-CY-Fairgrounds, would have been a wiser choice from initial ridership. But I don't think the Pauline-Lamar-Airways is as brain-dead as I had originally thought. It passes by or through many areas that are nice, or could be -- the rebuilt Lamar Terrace (which is looking kind of cool, so far), Central Gardens, Cooper-Young, Glenview, South Parkway, the Airways Shopping Center. It's between Airways/Lamar and I-240 that you might worry about our visitors.

If they emphasize rapid transit, with stops only at the Airport, Memphis Depot/Kelloggs, Airways/Lamar, South Parkway, Lamar/McLean, Lamar/Bellevue, Pauline/Lamar, ???, design the whole process for security, and emphasize 2 core constituencies -- travelers and people on the way to work -- it could be a success.

But if they don't have a vision for the thing -- if they treat it as a bus on rails -- it will be a failure vs. its costs.

This post has been edited by gatesofmemphis: 21 January 2007 - 12:40 PM

[tnse]

It'd be great if they could take advantage of some of the University population since students would provide a good base of ridership. Does anyone else agree? The premier undergrad colleges in Memphis are U of M, Rhodes, and CBU. Seems like though they are relatively close by, Rhodes and U of M might not be in the vicinity where a light rail line might pass. But wouldn't CBU be close enough to Overton Square and Cooper Young to be a stop on the way to the airport? And maybe it could be a good stop for the Children's Museum and even the Libert Bowl (if it survives) at the same time?

[tnse]

For those interested in the light rail topic, see this link:

http://smartcitymemp...-advantage.html

[memphislightrail]

I found this forum form a post on my blog. I'm glad to hear that people are talking about light rail in Memphis. I have a post on my blog asking people for questions they want to ask the chief planner for MATA Tom Fox about light rail in Memphis. I plan on sending them along to Tom and then posting his reply on my blog. Its a great chance to get those burning questions answered. Just go here and leave a comment with your questions.

I agree that the Lamar Corridor makes the least sense. The problem is that the medical district extension was such a fiasco and disrupted businesses so much that nobody wants to have any to do with light rail. The fear is that it would put them out of business. Light rail may be good for business when its in place but will never win support from businesses if it construction puts them out of business. Portland did it right with their downtown street car system. They partnered with businesses to ensure that disruptions to businesses and shoppers was to a minimum. There is even an anecdotal story of the construction workers stopping to help unload a delivery truck when construction obstructed the delivery vehicle access to the business.

[gatesofmemphis]

memphislightrail, on Jan 31 2007, 10:43 AM, said:

I agree that the Lamar Corridor makes the least sense. The problem is that the medical district extension was such a fiasco and disrupted businesses so much that nobody wants to have any to do with light rail. The fear is that it would put them out of business. Light rail may be good for business when its in place but will never win support from businesses if it construction puts them out of business. Portland did it right with their downtown street car system. They partnered with businesses to ensure that disruptions to businesses and shoppers was to a minimum. There is even an anecdotal story of the construction workers stopping to help unload a delivery truck when construction obstructed the delivery vehicle access to the business.

How many businesses on Madison went under during that time?

[idlewild]

well j-wags is no longer there so i'm sure it was disrupted by it. other than that i don't think anything was hurt that bad.

[G-townTN]

I am confused on how this could affect business for those on madison. I understand the whole point of construction blocking traffic and causing people to take a different route, but the return should be much greater now that it is done. For one thing a lot of the construction could potentially be done at night, it happens all the time in the state and I don't see why this should be any different. Also, the businesses should encourage things like rail because a person is more likely to walk in one of those businesses if they are on the trolley as opposed to being in their cars.

It seems to me that there are very few people in memphis that actually see the need for change. With out a true respect for the idea that the world is changing everyday and you have to keep up to survive, we will never be able to compete with the cities around us. How does Fed Ex stay so competitive in today's business world, I am pretty sure they have not kept the same business plan as they had when they started the company, they have changed as the world has changed.

From an engineering and environmental stand point, we really need to focus on the future, which very much includes light rail. If we don't, the roads are going to become more congested and more gas will be wasted. A fellow I work with used to work in an engineering firm in texas. He said when he came to work in Tennessee a couple of years back it was like he stepped back in time. The problems dallas and houston faced 20 years ago are the problems we are facing today. Why don’t we learn from their mistakes and come up with a better plan that will reduce congestion and move people around in the most efficient way possible.

On another note, has MATA even looked at other cities to see how we can build the most effective light rail system? It doesn’t seem like it sense the want to build the first line down lamar.

[gatesofmemphis]

What I keep wondering about is the business opposition to continuing the Trolley. That opposition keeps being mentioned but everything I've heard is anecdotal. Is there official opposition from business owners (if so, who?), or does someone just have a friend who has a friend and they're opposed?

Plus, even if the business opposition was measured and measurable, will we do the same with the citizens of Midtown and Memphis who might want the Trolley to be extended. Why do their wishes count less than business owners?

Whether it's correlated or causal, the stretch of Madison between I-240 and Cleveland has substantially improved since the completion of the Trolley. And I don't think it was the Trolley that caused it to decline in the first place.

[idlewild]

well living in midtown and living on the route it would take, i say bring it. i would love to be able to take the trolley to work, and would now if the line didn't end about a mile west of my place!

[DoctorGonzo]

The problem with the Madison extension was they tore up the entire length of the line at once, blocked entrances to businesses, and generally messed things up for everyone but only inched their way down the street with the actual construction. So you had a massive amount of disruption in areas that didn't see any trackwork for a long time.

What they need to do is agree to do it in sections, and go to businesses in Overton and Cooper-Young and say "We're not going to do anything to your section of the street until we can actually devote enough time and resources to get it done quickly. Expect X number of weeks of disruption between Y and Z dates."

I'm sure something could be worked out if the effort was put into reaching out to the community, and it would likely produce much better results than a line few would feel safe enough to ride.

This post has been edited by DoctorGonzo: 31 January 2007 - 03:31 PM

[northernbizzkit1]

For the sake of convenience, I wish MATA could start a rapid transit line using existing rails from perhaps Central Station or wherever and run a train from downtown to the airport with few, if any, stops between the two just to test how many riders would use such a line. Using this data, they could then reevaluate their choice of path...I'm sure Lamar could use the trolley for a chance to revitalize its image; however, Cooper Young and Overton Square are existing, bustling neighborhoods that are just much more attractive to riders.

[Clobber]

I've thought about it, and saw a real cool bus system down in South America (Brazil or something), as well as the improvements to the LA system, and it got me to thinking, what are the advantages of a LRT over a rapid bus system? Is it merely an image thing (in terms of prospective customers)? Because if it were, then it seems the Lamar route would hurt that argument. Are there logistics that make rapid bus less economical than LRT? Comfort issues?

Any chance MATA changes its mind with the Lamar line and sends it to the CY alternative?

[tnse]

I'd like to again say that i think a route though Overton Square, past CBU, past the fairgrounds/Liberty Bowl/Childern's Museum, and past Cooper Young would be more ideal than Lamar. Those are destination spots for riders. Think of those heavy hitting spots and how much ridership is possible. I understand how people want to develop Lamar. But you don't build it hoping businesses will locate there. You build your base by going to places people want to go. Once the idea of light rail is established, then I think you can make a spur to Lamar if it is warrented. But if you start there and it languishes because no one wants to ride because what is the point if there are no reasons to stop, the whole project will be deemed a failure and never recieve additional funding or development. Anyone else agree or have comments?

[bluff2085]

tnse, on Jan 31 2007, 10:28 PM, said:

I'd like to again say that i think a route though Overton Square, past CBU, past the fairgrounds/Liberty Bowl/Childern's Museum, and past Cooper Young would be more ideal than Lamar. Those are destination spots for riders. Think of those heavy hitting spots and how much ridership is possible. I understand how people want to develop Lamar. But you don't build it hoping businesses will locate there. You build your base by going to places people want to go. Once the idea of light rail is established, then I think you can make a spur to Lamar if it is warrented. But if you start there and it languishes because no one wants to ride because what is the point if there are no reasons to stop, the whole project will be deemed a failure and never recieve additional funding or development. Anyone else agree or have comments?

Agreed tnse, going through midtown destination spots like the fairgrounds and CY is more appropriate IMO for some of the reasons you mentioned. But if ridership is low on the Lamar route or if it proves unsuccessful, Memphians will blame the path. Not to conclude that the Lamar route is doomed to fail, but I would be more likely to accept the position that Memphis simply isn't ready for LRT if a route through midtown hotspots was not a success; as opposed to crying 'what if' should the Lamar route not become a success.

This post has been edited by bluff2085: 01 February 2007 - 10:08 AM

[lahenson]

I've attended several MATA committee meetings on LRT in Memphis. Maybe I can clear up a few things.

After the Madsion extension fiasco that devasted many businesses, many business owners on the Cooper-Young route voiced strong opposition to having the LRT routed thru Cooper-Young.

The Cooper-Young intersection would have needed to have been extensively rebuilt to handle the longer, modern LRT cars and thus changing the flavor of the area. Also, the vibration from the LRT would have severely affected several recording studios along or near the proposed route.

Despite all that, it appeared that the committee was ready to vote for Alternate 1 when Will Hudson (CEO of MATA) suggested that Alternate 2 be selected ... which it then was.

BTW, MATA has redesigned it website and no longer posts the meetings for MATATrac ...

The current plans for LRT are absurd for many reasons.

Yes, the most congested corrider which deserves priorty is the Poplar Ave. corridor. However, the freight line refuses to share the ROW that paralles much of Poplar. There is no room to build a grade separated LRT line and to put LRT in the street with traffic on Poplar would be sheer stupidity. In fact, putting LRT in any street with traffic isn't very bright but it would be a really bad idea on Poplar.

The only viable option for the Poplar Corridor is elevation. If you elevate, then the cheaper route is a monorail. One way to minimize that cost are private partnerships.

For example, I'm sure the Oak Court Mall would like to be a stop on a Poplar Corridor Monorail. Since a monorail is much quieter than light rail, it could actually pull into a stop on the second story inside of the mall. This would eliminate the need for MATA to pay for a elevators, etc. because they are already a part of the mall.

Labor is a huge portion of the operating costs. A monorail can show significant savings in operating costs by automation.

Elevate and automate.

[gatesofmemphis]

Why does the extension to C-Y have to be LRT -- why can't it be the trolley line, which is smaller and lighter? I'm not sure, but I have a feeling that the curve you see on the SW corner of Overton Square and used to be on the NE corner of Cooper Young were built for trolleys.

The trolley is slow, unless you're on foot, in which case it's great. And even the slowness -- how much of that is MATA not fixing the problem and how much is the nature of trolleys?

The Lamer/Airways and C-Y routes are presented as alternates (and are I suppose from a funding perspective) but they seem complementary rather than competitive.

[DoctorGonzo]

gatesofmemphis, on Feb 19 2007, 12:01 PM, said:

Why does the extension to C-Y have to be LRT -- why can't it be the trolley line, which is smaller and lighter

Trolley cars are simply not a way to build ridership, for that you need real LRT.

Since moving from Memphis, my entire commute is completed exclusively in one of these:
http://www.images.st...hat/type8-2.jpg
http://www.images.st.../what/type8.jpg

Once you give up driving, you really don't want to go back.

[tnse]

bluff2085, on Feb 1 2007, 10:03 AM, said:

Agreed tnse, going through midtown destination spots like the fairgrounds and CY is more appropriate IMO for some of the reasons you mentioned. But if ridership is low on the Lamar route or if it proves unsuccessful, Memphians will blame the path. Not to conclude that the Lamar route is doomed to fail, but I would be more likely to accept the position that Memphis simply isn't ready for LRT if a route through midtown hotspots was not a success; as opposed to crying 'what if' should the Lamar route not become a success.

Light Rail does not have to go down Cooper though. Could it not go down Madison, past Overton Square, then to East Parkway which turns into Airways, stop at CBU, past the fair grounds/Liberty Bowl and Children's Museum, stop right off Young and Airways, and then on to the airport? This way it does not disturb businesses on Cooper but still stops close enough to walk to Cooper-Young? Thoughts on that?

By the way, working at night is definitly the right idea.

[gatesofmemphis]

DoctorGonzo, on Feb 19 2007, 12:15 PM, said:

Trolley cars are simply not a way to build ridership, for that you need real LRT.

Agreed.

However, since they've already ended the Trolley Line halfway there, since it would go through or nearby many of the big tourist spots (Brooks, the Zoo, Overton Square, Cooper-Young, Liberty Bowl) outside of downtown, and for the LRT anti-reasons stated, extending a tourist friendly trolley line to C-Y would make sense. Plus it will be used by locals. It will be a tourist/local hybrid.

A complement, not an alternative, to LRT.

[memphislightrail]

I have posted Tom Fox's, MATA's Director of Planning, reply to questions brought up by readers of my blog. I thought those following in this forum would be interested in seeing the questions asked of Mr. Fox and his answers. Some of the questions brought up in this forum were addressed by his answers so its worth checking out. I would post it on this forum but I think it would be too long, plus I'm trying to get more readers to my blog. Enjoy!