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Greenville, Lockwood, Tryon Hills, Druid Hills, Double Oaks Neighborhoods

125 posts in this topic

Posted

This area is predominantly an industrial, but it does have a number of minority neighborhoods. They are often forgotten in urbanization and development circles, because they are neighborhoods that have generally been lacking in projects outside of the housing authority.

I was not familiar with all of these neighborhood names, but they are defined by the city's neighborhood quality of life study here:

http://ww.charmeck.org/qol/cwac.htm

Greenville is the most known and stable of the neighborhoods in this area, as it is both the farthest from industrial uses and among the closest to downtown. Lockwood is a name I wasn't familiar with until researching it, but it is directly northeast of 4th Ward between Tryon and Graham.

In 1998, the city got federal approval for a Hope VI project called the Park at Oaklawn

http://www.crosland.com/apartments/propert...ark_at_oaklawn/

You can read more about the conversion plan here:

http://www.cha-nc.org/documents/HOPE%20VI%20Properties.pdf

The only Planning Department plan I see for the area only encompassed most of the neighborhoods I have included in this thread, but it specifically focused on the Statesville Avenue corridor.

http://ww.charmeck.org/Planning/Land%20Use...ille_Avenue.pdf

The neighborhoods I have listed include large sections of industrial areas, but do include housing areas that have around 10,000 residents. As the area is fragile socially, and is known for its industry, crime and poverty, these areas have generally been bypassed for growth outside of direct public investment in housing. However, we have recently seen Wilmore become a valuable neighborhood and many projects coming to westside neighborhoods, especially Wesley Heights, and Optimist Park and Belmont begin to see regeneration and growth.

Now, on the fringes of uptown, we are starting to see growth due north into the neighborhoods included in this thread. Technical Noah Lazes' Uptown Village and NC Music Factory is within the traditional boundaries of the Greenville Neighborhood, although the interstate has caused that to be generally considered part of uptown lately. We now know that there is a plan to put townhomes on 12th Street just beyond Brookshire Freeway from uptown in a project called City View Terrace. It will be 58 units starting at $300k. While this is technically beginning to pioneer out into these neighborhoods, it is south of the Seaboard Railroad tracks, so it is still the traditional uptown neighborhoods rather than the other neighborhoods beyond that.

http://www.charlotte.com/485/story/351306.html

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Posted

It's been a while since I've been down there, but growing up I had family in some of those neighborhoods. Most of the projects were badly built decades ago, and some of the neighborhoods along La Salle near 77 and Norris Ave are a patchwork of rental duplexes, but there are some areas mixed within (like the bungalow section of Druid Hills - bounded by Statesville-Norris-Graham-Woodward, or - I think it's Lockwood - along Plymouth/Sylvania/Keswick between Graham and Tryon) that are comparatively well-built neighborhoods.

Double Oaks was for decades in very bad shape; when construction began on 77 it really went into a spiral. I recall my dad telling me that the Double Oaks project was built on top of a WWII-era landfill, and that later the initial plans for 77 were to tie Oaklawn in to the 77/Brookshire interchange, which would have consumed far more of those surrounding communities, but complaints or a petition drive forced modification of those plans.

The oldest section of Druid Hills was (also according to my dad) one of the first suburban Charlotte neighborhoods to experience white flight - he did yard work there when it was still an entirely white neighborhood (Statesville Ave was - in the 1940s - the line of segregation, which at some point during the decade shifted east of N Tryon Street).

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Posted

Thanks for the links!

My company is located immediately north of the the JT Williams neighborhood. We have a few acres here and have been thinking about expanding, although we've run up against some pretty negative voices in the planning commision as far as rezoning. (Our land is north of Carmine and is used for light distribution.) The land we own is divided between I-1 and residential. Our warehouse itself is on the I-1 land, but BD would work. With this report I can see that our long-term plan should fall right in line with the community plan. One of their goals is to encourage neighborhood employment. We already have 6-8 people who walk to work.

Anyway, it's a curious area indeed. On one hand, the neighbors who've lived here a long time are great, but there is an element that is just terrible. My employees who walk to work feel like they are walking a gauntlet. Truly you don't want to be here after dark. Our building has been broken into three times this year, most recently the night before last.

A couple of years ago, we had a guy walk in on our counter who tried to get us to sell him some of our land cheaply, or donate it to him. He claimed he was representing some company that was going to work with the city to revitalize the area. There was nothing we could find on his firm and basically we shut the door on him. Several neighbors came to me asking who the guy was and if they "had to sell him their homes". I told them no and that it sounded like a scam. They were relieved, but I'm afraid that guy must've gotten ahold of a few people in the neighborhood.

Anyway, this area has had more than a few things dumped on it: the homeless shelter, the asphalt plant that NoDa didn't want, and a would-be truck stop that doesn't have the proper zoning as such.

I won't even go into the drug salesmen or prostitutes. Just take a slow drive down Carmine and see how many people come out of the cracks trying to sell you something.

We'd love to help improve Statesville avenue, but there are a lot of elements working against us.

Okay, I've vented :-)

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Posted

Thanks for the added history, davidals. I think this area really has a steep uphill trek to get to be a mixed income urban district. I think it has tremendous potential, given that it has recognizable street names, numbered streets, and a grid that could fairly easily be restored. I should say first that I am not truly hoping for 'gentrification' in that it becomes a wealthy area and pushing out the poor and the industries. But I hope that it eventually gets brought into the current economy with protections for the poor that are there, but having a place for denser living that can include a diverse set of people.

I have long believed that the part of this area that is closest to uptown could eventually be converted to a fairly dense area. Those industrial sections would be great for massive dense projects, as the industry moves away from the center of the city. The crime and the perception of crime hold this area back from being successful in the current environment, but it can be overcome by a small scale leap frog, just like it has so far for Optimist Park. For example, if City View Terraces are successful, I could see other projects being proposed along 12th to connect to Alpha Mill. I then could see that growing past the rail line, perhaps to the large parcel between the two rail lines, Graham, Church and Liddell. I could see the potential for some growth to the five points area of Graham, Statesville, Dalton and Liddell, although I concede it is not as likely as other areas.

My goal for the city is to convert all of the neighborhoods that are within a 2-3 mile radius of downtown from their troubled, late-20th Century status to more integrated urban neighborhoods with infill and older homes. It relies mostly on imagination and boldness of middle class pioneers, as well as some social change within the minority (mostly black) communities that are there now. I know those changes are very hard, and are very charged and intense due to an oppressive history. But I think there are now models to follow for neighborhoods to become stable middle class area with the poor living among them reaping the social benefits of improved quality of life.

I think that unless some people try to make this type of thing happen, then we will remain to have a very visible and symbolic separation of races and classes in the city, which reduces the trust in the city. It was my FIRST impression of Charlotte, and I almost did not move here because of it. The perception of crossing a railroad line to see a huge difference is quite creepy. It says a lot about the city, and we must improve the situation. Having racial or class based boundaries that developers can't cross holds the city back. That is my theory.

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Posted

Thanks for adding the Thread for this area, I live in the Park at Oaklawn and have been watching the growth and changes all throught these neighborhoods for a few years now. As has already been stated here, it is a challenged area, but it is also moving along nicely in some parts. What is now the Park at Oaklawn, used to be the one of the worst crime areas in all of Charlotte(Earl Village I think? someone correct me if I have the wrong name), but today, I watch all different types of people in our neighborhood walk with children or alone, day and night and I have personally never felt unsafe or like I was in danger. Granted a few blocks away this isn't the case, but it is a slight victory, and with some of the new developments in the works in the same areas, I hope this trend can continue. The newest addition has been mentioned in a few other threads, North End Square, right on the edge of Greenville along Statesville and Oaklawn, condos and retail planned.

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Posted

Interesting thread Dubone. I've always thought that this intersection in Lockwood on Graham would be an amazing instersection to re-develop with a core of mid-rise buildings that frame the street - it would have really cool form. The center area could be some sort of monument/green space with landscaping & benches. Its a very close location, just on the other side of 277 from uptown.

2026806265_975a9060cd.jpg

what i had in mind was something similar to the Courthouse neighborhood of Arlington, VA. A great urban area, nothing too vertical, extremely mixed-use.

2026807959_c3b9551165.jpg

anyone know what's around that intersection currently? are they industrial uses?

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Posted (edited)

Love the vision. Not sure how well I can explain what is where, but using your aerial photo, this is what is at that intersection:

Currently on the corner of Dalton and Graham you have a Dry cleaners an auto repair shop and then a Plumbing supply(Winnelson) is last before getting to Liddell. The other side of Liddell is a good sized plot of land that have been available for at least a year now. Just dirt currently, but it is across the bridge from the area that will be City View Terrace. Across from there on Graham is the Second Harvest Food bank, as Graham turns left onto Statesville. Next to that, down Statesville is what I think is a city building, I always see city owned vehicles in the lot. Across from there boardered by Statesville, Dalton and Graham is an empty (funny you should say)Courthouse looking building, available currently also, not sure what it used to be but looked to be industrial use.

Edited to add I forgot one corner - Adams Outdoor Advertising is on the other corner of Graham and Dalton - the billboard folks.

Edited by lefty23

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Posted

I'm not sure what the previous public housing was called at The Park at Oaklawn, but Earle Village was replaced by First Ward Place.

I think that the industrial building on the northern side of that 5 points intersection is a fairly attractive building from the 1950s. It seems a good way to kick off a more urban intersection like the one in Arlington.

http://www.northendsquarecondos.com

I hadn't even heard of NorthEnd Square! But that further underscores that the stability of Greenville and the improved planning and social stabilization of this area is creating a market for the middle class to move into the area. While it is a shame that urban renewal converted the historic grid in Greenville into curvilinear suburban road network. But otherwise, the Greenville neighborhood deserves credit for maintaining a strong community. The only time I have walked through Greenville, I was greated by a parade with a marching band and the whole community was out and about to see it.

I have mixed feelings with trying to brand this area 'NorthEnd'. On one hand, they ought to embrace the historic neighborhood names that already describe the area. On the other hand, this area truly was the north end of Charlotte until the post WWII period. There is often a need to brand the area as being more than the traditional neighborhoods when density starts to grow in previously industrial land that was not really strongly identified with the neighborhood. Historic South End was created because it really was substantially different than the traditional neighborhood that it historically was part of, Dilworth. It also helps to create a new identity as the area grows exponentially beyond the traditional size through infill. It part it creates an overlay where both 'South End' and 'Dilworth' apply just like 'Uptown' and 'Third Ward' both apply. As long as it is a grass roots campaign of people living and investing in the area, then I'm okay with it.

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Posted

Don't forget about the women's shelter that's there on the corner as well.

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Posted

I'm not sure what the previous public housing was called at The Park at Oaklawan, but Earle Village was replaced by First Ward Place.

Thanks for the correction dubone - I looked around, The Fairview Homes public housing projects were what the Park at Oaklawn replaced.

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Posted

Thanks for the added history, davidals. I think this area really has a steep uphill trek to get to be a mixed income urban district. I think it has tremendous potential, given that it has recognizable street names, numbered streets, and a grid that could fairly easily be restored. I should say first that I am not truly hoping for 'gentrification' in that it becomes a wealthy area and pushing out the poor and the industries. But I hope that it eventually gets brought into the current economy with protections for the poor that are there, but having a place for denser living that can include a diverse set of people.

Dubone,

You bring up some good points on the area in North Charlotte...specifically the neighborhoods Greenville, Lockwood, and the neighborhoods behind Lockwood (going away from Uptown- between Graham and Tryon from 24th st. to just past 30th st.) called Tryon Hills and Graham Heights.

Just to touch on a few points brought up in this thread, gentrification is already occuring in Lockwood. New or rennovated houses in Lockwood (1500-1700 sf) are already selling for over 200K. A decently built house that needs rennovation won't sell for under 150K. "Pioneers" have been working on impoving the neighborhood for the last 2 years and most of the crime is gone (I would actually feel safer walking down Sylvania/Lockwood than I would walking down parts of Mint st./Wilmore, Summit or Grandin/Westley Heights, Trade St./Biddleville, or The Plaza or Parkwood in Noda/Villa Heights/Belmont. There is a wave of young professionals that have began fixing houses up and moving in. That said, most of the residents of Lockwood are older black people...all very nice...but it is changing. A few investors own around 20 houses in the neighborhood...so it is only a matter of time before they start selling them off.

Graham Heights and Tryon Hills basically blend together and are the next neigborhood directly behind Lockwood (going away from town). The wave of gentrificaton has already started hopping over Lockwood and houses in these neigborhoods are in the beginning stages of being fixed up.

I can appreciate your hope for the area not to gentrify but you know investors/developers take over where ever they see dollar signs...and there just aren't many areas close to uptown for them to do what they did in Noda, Willmore, Westley Heights, etc.

Here is what I think is going to happen in North Charlotte: Investors have already started buying up the houses and in some cases fixing them up to resell. It is one of the only areas near uptown that investors can buy cheap houses, fix them up, and resell for profit at prices under 200K (not in Lockwood anymore). There has to be a huge market for people that want to own a home near uptown but can't afford 200K + homes! Anyway, I think the window will be open for a few more years for this to happen before it is just like Belmont and Villa Heights, or other areas like them.

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Posted (edited)

Admin's note: preceding quoted post removed

I attended an event last night for North End Square Condominiums on Statesville Avenue (www.northendsqareconds.com). Does anyone have any feelings about this development? From what I hear is taking place on this corridor and to be only a mile and a half from uptown this seems like it will be solid project.

Edited by monsoon

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Posted

My feelings are I agree, I think it will be a solid project, I hope it moves forward sooner than later. To boot, I hope it somehow leads to the removal, improvement or demolition of the apartment complex right behind it.

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Posted

Some movement on the NorthEnd Square site...They have staked out areas all over the ground. I hope this means good things to come.

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Posted

My feelings are I agree, I think it will be a solid project, I hope it moves forward sooner than later. To boot, I hope it somehow leads to the removal, improvement or demolition of the apartment complex right behind it.

The apartment complex is owned by a group out of Tennessee. The developer of the North End Square project has been in conversation with this group but they have not come to any terms at this point.

On the other side of the site, across Stateville Avenue is the Rite-Aid and Hercules business park sites. The 22 acre Hercules parcel has been acquired by a local group and should be unveiling plans in the near future. The same group is aggressively pursuing the 35 acre Rite-Aid parcel. This deal was delayed due to the acquisition of Eckerd by Rite-Aid. Plans for both sites are expected to be mixed-use with the majority being retail.

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Posted

Some movement on the NorthEnd Square site...They have staked out areas all over the ground. I hope this means good things to come.

Construction is scheduled to begin 3rd quarter 08'.

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Posted

I hope the Rite-Aid warehouse stays.....the brick detailing is exceptional, plus it is relatively historic. It was a bomb making factory for WWII. They can tear down the annexes, but I'd be pretty upset it the main building is demoed.

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Posted

I have often questioned why this area hasn't gotten as much traction as other that abut the Center City. Clearly, it lacks the appeal of a South End, but it is really close and for the most part, very clean. With such large scale developments like Double Oaks on the table, it looks like this is going to be a good area.

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Posted

The apartment complex is owned by a group out of Tennessee. The developer of the North End Square project has been in conversation with this group but they have not come to any terms at this point.

On the other side of the site, across Stateville Avenue is the Rite-Aid and Hercules business park sites. The 22 acre Hercules parcel has been acquired by a local group and should be unveiling plans in the near future. The same group is aggressively pursuing the 35 acre Rite-Aid parcel. This deal was delayed due to the acquisition of Eckerd by Rite-Aid. Plans for both sites are expected to be mixed-use with the majority being retail.

I had heard the Eckerd Plant was being pursued, and figured the Rite-Aid deal changed things. That is great news on the other nearby parcels. Some Retail in this area sounds good. Thanks for the update.

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Posted

I have often questioned why this area hasn't gotten as much traction as other that abut the Center City. Clearly, it lacks the appeal of a South End, but it is really close and for the most part, very clean. With such large scale developments like Double Oaks on the table, it looks like this is going to be a good area.
Historically this area nose-dived when they built I-77 and the Brookshire freeway in the late 60s early 70s, which effectively cut it off from downtown. During this period there was also some pockets of urban renewal of the scorched earth type that didn't help. It should be noted however that when this was going on this section of town was more lively than South End which in the late 70s was littered with porno shops, massage parlors and boarded up buildings.

There is a definite bias in Charlotte against any areas that are not in the direction of SE Charlotte and the areas North of the city still suffer from this stigma which has a lot to do with why it has been ignored so long. It's similar to why gentrification has been going on in Noda for 2+ decades now without a lot of progress and why Plaza-Midwood is often referred to as the poor man's Dilworth.

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Posted

Historically this area nose-dived when they built I-77 and the Brookshire freeway in the late 60s early 70s, which effectively cut it off from downtown. During this period there was also some pockets of urban renewal of the scorched earth type that didn't help. It should be noted however that when this was going on this section of town was more lively than South End which in the late 70s was littered with porno shops, massage parlors and boarded up buildings.

There is a definite bias in Charlotte against any areas that are not in the direction of SE Charlotte and the areas North of the city still suffer from this stigma which has a lot to do with why it has been ignored so long. It's similar to why gentrification has been going on in Noda for 2+ decades now without a lot of progress and why Plaza-Midwood is often referred to as the poor man's Dilworth.

That being said, do you think this area can make a comeback? Do you believe a project like North End Square (www.northendsquarecondos.com) can serve as a catalyst or will this area still go unoticed?

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Posted

^Given they have already cooked up another nonsensical trendy name "North End" I don't know. It sounds more like a developer that found some relatively cheap land, wants to throw up a cheaply built condo project just so he can make his bucks as fast as possible. I don't see anything about this project to like and if it was located, say in the University area, it would be derided by most here as another cookie cutter mess. It's bland, boring and typical Charlotte.

Aside from that, the powers to be have decided this area will only be served by buses and cars for the forseeable future and it is too far away from downtown to benefit from it's proximity. It could go either way.

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Posted

Why would a "North End Square" web site use a south western perspective of uptown? Details people, this is UP.

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Posted (edited)

I like the fact that public and private investment is entering this area. I didn't realize how much the city has been working in this area but there have been a handful of projects already. I'm glad that an option to live less than a mile from downtown that has options under $200,000 is now in process. With the vast tracts up and down this corridor I think it has good potential to become another close-in area similar to Southend, Elizabeth, Central Ave. Do I like the North End name? Actually I'm fine with it. If places are going to get names I'd prefer something simple and to the point like this. Much better than the attempt with SoDa or with Seigle Point.

I hope this corridor blossoms -- it does have the potential. I'm glad, as well, that this is occurring somewhere other than south Charlotte. So often we hear that the city and the powers-that-be don't do as much for the less affluent parts of town, the predominantely black parts of town, or areas outside South Charlotte. At least this shows that isn't true. Is it equal? I don't know, but it is an investment.

As far as the developer for North End Square goes, I'm sure they are happy to make a buck, that is what makes these things happen, but I also like the fact that Bobby Drakeford has ties to this area with family, business, school, etc, and he is also African-American. So often we hear cries that gentrification is somehow racially biased but, IMO, this shows that business is business, changes to an area aren't necessarily racially motivated but financially motivated, and this isn't an outsider coming in to change an area -- it's an insider.

Edited by Charlotte_native

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Posted

Historically this area nose-dived when they built I-77 and the Brookshire freeway in the late 60s early 70s, which effectively cut it off from downtown. During this period there was also some pockets of urban renewal of the scorched earth type that didn't help. It should be noted however that when this was going on this section of town was more lively than South End which in the late 70s was littered with porno shops, massage parlors and boarded up buildings.

There is a definite bias in Charlotte against any areas that are not in the direction of SE Charlotte and the areas North of the city still suffer from this stigma which has a lot to do with why it has been ignored so long. It's similar to why gentrification has been going on in Noda for 2+ decades now without a lot of progress and why Plaza-Midwood is often referred to as the poor man's Dilworth.

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