74 replies to this topic

[BUILDIT]

Nostyle, on May 18 2008, 12:08 PM, said:

Pittsburgh's two stadiums sit across the river from downtown and really make no effort to mesh with the rest of the city. Having said that, this layout is a good example of how the surface lots for a football stadium and a baseball stadium can overlap in an urban setting:



This is more or less what we'd be doing here in Charlotte...minus the river that cuts Pittsburgh's stadiums off from the rest of the Center City. Take a look at other cities on Google (rather than me posting more pics here). Lots of cities do the same thing, putting their stadiums in close proximity for the sake of overlapping parking lots...Denver, Seattle, Philadelphia, etc. Look, the damage is done with BofA Stadium...might as well make the most of it with this baseball stadium.

as does the Ravens/Orioles set up

As far as TWC "The Cable Box" Arena, there is definitely potential. During the ACC Tourny, my god, it was awesome. There were people everywhere, hot dog vendors on the street, just a lot of stuff going on. It was great, but that doesnt change the fact that, on off nights like right now, the arena is desolate, and a massive section of town that serves no purpose. Now, if it wasnt built, would there be people in that same spot? Probably not, and frankly I want the Bobcats in uptown, but for future, we should be careful how and where we build these arenas.

[Nostyle]

BUILDIT, on May 18 2008, 12:20 PM, said:

If they were serious, they should look into doing something like the Power & Light District in Kansas City where they allow Alcoholic Beverages to be carried outside and have an aggressive retail, restaurant, and residential strategy for the new buildings along the street, not compromising with developers.

Just as a general point, there will always be ways that things can be done better, and you brought up a good one with the Kansas City Power & Light District without even realizing it. Right now people are up in arms over the dress code required in this new entertainment district. It is being called a race-motivated dress code. This is just another example of how even things that seem to be done right can have issues that you don't realize. IMO it's good that we are constructively criticizing Charlotte, but at the same time, step back and realize that there is a lot of good stuff happening here that we should be very happy about.

[BUILDIT]

I really cannot talk about the dress code and it being racist as I dont know the code or really the whole story, but I think it is fully within any restaurant or entertainment areas rights to have a dress code, clubs do, and it has nothing to do with whether I am white or black, as do fancy restaurants. That seems iffy to me.

[voyager12]

I too am annoyed and distressed by Uptown's fragmented "life'. We have a few nice islands of interest but it is more than swallowed up by depressing surface lots and prime land being sat on by you know who..... I take heart with the long range plans ( Blkyn Village, Brevard Corridor) etc but it's hard to be upbeat about that because it's so pie in the sky uncertain. The new City Public Market will be a great addition and compliment the LRT and encourage more sensible urbanity if done right. I would also like to see less reliance or obsession perhaps on high dollar restaurants.. how about some more casual sidewalk cafes? Uptown's laser focus on the high life gets old after awhile, we should not just have a vertical Ballantyne vibe in our urban core.

[brianrri]

Having moved to Charlotte in 2005 I have been encouraged by ongoing transformation in the city center. I am not a native therefore I cannot know for certain what works best now as opposed to "what was there before" but yet I like what Charlotte is becoming. This city should be the envy of most mid-sized cities IMO. I had relatives down a few months ago from up North and as we drove through uptown they were very impressed with the city but when we got to the area around the Greyhound bus station on Trade street they remaked about how it suddenly became a "dead zone". I think thatthis area should be a primary focus of redevelopment to connect it to the rest of the downtown Renaissance.
The BOA stadium, well I agree that that area needs help. The city should encourage building human-scale things around it and find a way to also connect it to the rest of Uptown.

Edited by brianrri, 18 May 2008 - 06:51 PM.

[Andyc545]

brianrri, on May 18 2008, 08:49 PM, said:

I had relatives down a few months ago from up North and as we drove through uptown they were very impressed with the city but when we got to the area around the Greyhound bus station on Trade street they remaked about how it suddenly became a "dead zone". I think thatthis area should be a primary focus of redevelopment to connect it to the rest of the downtown Renaissance.

Luckily, the multimodal station and the Polk building are all important candidates for this critical transformation. There are a few other opportunities, including where the ABC store was suppose to go diagonally from Trademark, as well as a few surface lots that are sitting helplessly.

Quote

The BOA stadium, well I agree that that area needs help. The city should encourage building human-scale things around it and find a way to also connect it to the rest of Uptown.

This is true. Hopefully what Novare is producing by placing a grocer in the bottom of the parking garage that faces the stadium that this will encourage growth and movement in that direction. There are a few added opportunities in the future, including that staging site for Wachovia next to the stadium. I believe one of the reasons for there being a dead zone around here is the lack of connectivity between the uptown side of 3rd Ward and the Warehouse District side of 3rd Ward. A lot of the connectivity is frowned based on the train tracks, Panther's training fields, and other poor development that should be changed. The stadium itself, I believe can be worked around and used intelligently to make it a symbolic area rather than to just give up hope on this area altogether.

[Spartan]

FWIW I think that the new park in 3rd Ward will be a huge destination for center city residents. Right now the cemetery and Frazier Park are the closes things we have. There is some retail being built in Catalyst. Perhaps the new park, if it turns out to be a draw, along with the new residential towers will generate some more demand for retail.

[DCMetroRaleigh]

One of the things I like about downtown Winston's attempts to revive its downtown is that that city is luring the creative class to its center city, with its Arts District, Theater District, and Piedmont Triad Research Park. Not to sound like a Richard Florida acolytye, but I think that a vibrant center city needs the creative class to thrive. I am all for massive scale developments and condo towers, but the most exciting center cities tend to have lots of lower scale assets such as row houses, sidewalk cafes, bookstores, nightclubs, and parks. People want a cultural and social experience that they can't get at the suburban mall when they come to a center city. They want to see the diversity, the hip, the pulse of a big city buzzing.

[voyager12]

^ I agree that not enough attention is being focused on the amenities you listed at the end of your post. That's why I spend almost all of my leisure time in Dilworth/Southend, PM/Elizabeth, and NoDa. Uptown is centered around "destination" attractions, the ring districts and old city suburbs seem to playing the role of walkable areas on a small scale. Seems counterintuitive to me but I am grateful for the litttle we do have.

[Mobuchu]

DCMetroRaleigh, on May 18 2008, 11:52 PM, said:

One of the things I like about downtown Winston's attempts to revive its downtown is that that city is luring the creative class to its center city, with its Arts District, Theater District, and Piedmont Triad Research Park. Not to sound like a Richard Florida acolytye, but I think that a vibrant center city needs the creative class to thrive. I am all for massive scale developments and condo towers, but the most exciting center cities tend to have lots of lower scale assets such as row houses, sidewalk cafes, bookstores, nightclubs, and parks. People want a cultural and social experience that they can't get at the suburban mall when they come to a center city. They want to see the diversity, the hip, the pulse of a big city buzzing.

Just curious, what is Winstons strategy to making this happen. I'm sure everyone on here would love to have a more diverse demographic uptown, but how do you make that happen with land values so high? Without local gov. helping out, all you cando is make units in apt and condo buildings tiny. When the affordability of living uptown was discussed in another thread, people complained that those units in the mid 100k range were too small and nobody would want to live there?

Edited by Mobuchu, 19 May 2008 - 09:44 AM.

[DCMetroRaleigh]

Mobuchu, I am not in the know about the mechanizations behind the revival of Winston's Art and Theater Districts, so I will do some research and report back later. But in the meantime, here is some video from WXII on the Arts District.

[DCMetroRaleigh]

This article gives a generalized account of how the Arts District came to be:

http://triad.bizjournals.com/triad/stories...mp;surround=etf

In a nutshell, this portion of the article succinctly summarizes why Winston was successful with this district:

"Each summer since the late 1990s, the Summer on Trade music series has attracted people from all over Winston-Salem to the arts district. At first, they just listened to the free concerts. Then they started wandering into the shops. Then they started coming back during the week."

Edited by DCMetroRaleigh, 19 May 2008 - 10:14 AM.

[1979Heel]

Winston-Salem has had an arts legacy for years, stretching back to the creation of NCSA in 1963 and maybe even earlier, considering the relocation of WFU in 1956 and Salem College in Old Salem. Charlotte's arts scene, such as it is, has had to be built from the ground up and with scant help from either local universities or the state goverment.

I'm a Charlotte native and plenty old enough to remember the center city in the early 1970s. It was pretty grim. The turnaround is nothing short of amazing. So when I read complaints about it, I am simultaneously thankful that 1) people care so much about it that they want it to be even better and 2) decisions were made over the last 30 years that have given us the excellent base to build upon today. Most of the mistakes in rebuilding the center city, such as leveling 2d Ward and building the I-277 loop above ground, were made in many other US cities as well and are not unique to Charlotte. For example, the Fillmore District in San Francisco was leveled as an "urban renewal" project and if the Loma Prieta earthquake in 1989 had not happened, there would likely still be the Embarcadero Freeway around downtown SF, and no restored Ferry Building and wonderful farmer's market.

[Justadude]

The biggest problem I have with the baseball stadium is that there are no specific plans to make it functional on non-gamedays. The small amount of retail is one thing, but the stadium itself could be a destination if properly designed. When the concept was first proposed, I had really hoped to see some kind of plaza, arcade or park incorporated into the stadium itself. What we have instead is a small park and a small stadium, which don't seem to connect with each other very much.

[dbull75]

Justadude, on May 19 2008, 05:01 PM, said:

The biggest problem I have with the baseball stadium is that there are no specific plans to make it functional on non-gamedays. The small amount of retail is one thing, but the stadium itself could be a destination if properly designed. When the concept was first proposed, I had really hoped to see some kind of plaza, arcade or park incorporated into the stadium itself. What we have instead is a small park and a small stadium, which don't seem to connect with each other very much.

Outside of having retail/restaurants wrapped around the stadium, what else could be put into a stadium that could be utilized on non-game days? The intent is to have a park next door which we all discussed in other threads. The problem with baseball/football stadiums is that they aren't utilized for anything else. Basketball arenas as we all know can accomodate many different things.

[Andyc545]

dbull75, on May 19 2008, 05:26 PM, said:

Outside of having retail/restaurants wrapped around the stadium, what else could be put into a stadium that could be utilized on non-game days? The intent is to have a park next door which we all discussed in other threads. The problem with baseball/football stadiums is that they aren't utilized for anything else. Basketball arenas as we all know can accomodate many different things.

Outdoor concerts? Smaller more condemned festivities, such as a Beer Festival I went to? Why not open the buildings to the public just to walk around, take pictures, etc? Just throwing some stuff out there that could, with a stretch, find use; not arguing you're point at all because it is more than true, IMO. Of course these things can be done elsewhere in center city, but with things that may take place in the arena that gives it it's multi-use functionality could be applied to the stadiums just on an outdoor atmosphere... They do have the luxury of being able to be well lit at night, much better than anything else of it's scale in uptown as well as host tens of thousands of people all within a border.

[kermit]

Mobuchu, on May 19 2008, 10:41 AM, said:

Just curious, what is Winstons strategy to making this happen. I'm sure everyone on here would love to have a more diverse demographic uptown, but how do you make that happen with land values so high?

just guessing here but I believe that space (land and vacant space in existing buildings) in downtown winston is MUCH cheaper than in Charlotte. This is a product of a much larger (and more industrial) downtown combined with less downtown employment. There hippness is a product of their economic decline (IMO)

[BullDurhamer]

I thought I'd jump in on this regarding the stadiums.

First of all, has there been a downtown baseball stadium built in recent years anywhere that hasn't spurred development or at least been a major part in it? I live in Durham and I can tell you that when the baseball stadium was built almost 15 years ago, there was nothing there and downtown Durham was a ghost town. You guys may or may not know this, but now that area around the ball park is a completely different area. It has gone from nothing to a boom spot with refurbished warehouses for office and retail which has spurred the development of a major performance arts theater and renovations of other warehouses into condos as well as the building of office buildings...all down town. Without a new ball park there, what happens? The same can be said in just about every city in America that has built a ball park in the last fifteen years. San Diego, Denver, Baltimore, and now Washington DC are three nationally that come to mind. Regionally, Greensboro is definitely an example. That's a downtown that has had very little going on until recently and the ball park is a huge factor in the rejuvination. Consider that about 70 nights a year during the summer, people come into the center of the city by the thousands. If you can come up with a better way to draw people into the center of the city to spend their money are shops, restaurants, and bars, I'm all ears. A downtown baseball stadium is almost always a WIN WIN for urban downtown development.

Secondly, regarding the football stadium. I agree that having football stadiums sitting in the middle of downtown with parking lots everywhere is a bad idea. This isn't what Charlotte has, however. The stadium is placed next to the freeway, a spot where it is out of the way. The suggestion was made to place the stadium out in the middle of nowhere. I can't disagree with this suggestion loudly enough. I've seen how that works in Washington. The Redskins stadium is out in the middle of nowhere in Maryland. How does it work? You get in you car and sit in traffic... and sit in traffic... and sit in traffic. Can you take the train? No, because there is no train going out to the middle of nowhere. So what you're doing is encouraging 80,000 people to get in their cars and fill up the highways. That in itself is reason enough to discourage this. On top of that, you're sitting in traffic forever. Then once you're there, you're stuck. No where to go. Come and go, that's it. The Redskins win and the gas stations win, but that's about it. Maybe there's a McDonald's the next exit up if you're 'lucky'. After the event is over, what do you do? Get in the car and drive away. What does Washington DC get out of this? Absolutely nothing. You can call BOA a deadzone, but I call it an opportunity to showcase your city to 65,000 fans 10 game days of the year or so. It is also an opportunity to give these folks a great experience in the city. Keep in mind that people will come into the city and stay in hotels during game weekends, bowl weekends, and concerts if they are ever held. If the stadium was out in Fort Mill, those folks wouldn't be spending their money in the middle of the city. With the stadium tucked away in the corner and out of the way, you have a very nice set up in Charlotte and a way to bring in what amounts to probably close to a million people in your city a year. Call me crazy, but I'd rather have the people coming in and staying at my hotels, eating at my restaurants, spending money at my shops, and opening all kinds of doors for future business than to have all of this go to exit 3 out in the middle of nowhere putting just that many more cars on the road and spurring more sprawling strip malls as a result of its presence. Think long term...as the city grows and the light rail gets bigger, you're giving people many different ways to get in. You've also already got the stadium on what was probably a relatively inexpensive piece of land at the time. In other cities, doing something like this would be astronomically expensive, thus they may not have some of the options that they may like. BOA is there and I think everybody is lucky it is there, tucked away in the corner. It isn't like it is holding anything back. It is hidden away as it is to be used when needed and to say out of the way when it isn't.

Edited by BullDurhamer, 19 May 2008 - 05:41 PM.

[monsoon]

^Maybe I am missing something, but isn't Durham's baseball stadium located in the corner of a freeway exit? Seems to me it's a bit of a stretch to imply this is the same situation as that in Charlotte. And in Charlotte's case this isn't an all or nothing proposition. Prior to this proposal there was an already funded plan to put a signature urban park in this location. A park will serve the needs of a much larger base of people and will do it every day of the week.

On you other point, cities should not be using tax money to build professional sports venues. There are plenty of studies that indicate they do nothing for the economics of a city as they divert money away from other activities that might have been placed there in the first place.

[BullDurhamer]

monsoon, on May 19 2008, 10:46 PM, said:

^Maybe I am missing something, but isn't Durham's baseball stadium located in the corner of a freeway exit? Seems to me it's a bit of a stretch to imply this is the same situation as that in Charlotte. And in Charlotte's case this isn't an all or nothing proposition. Prior to this proposal there was an already funded plan to put a signature urban park in this location. A park will serve the needs of a much larger base of people and will do it every day of the week.

On you other point, cities should not be using tax money to build professional sports venues. There are plenty of studies that indicate they do nothing for the economics of a city as they divert money away from other activities that might have been placed there in the first place.

the durham baseball stadium has been central to the revival of that half of the downtown area. i'm not sure what you're asking. as for charlotte, maybe there is a better location in the downtown area, i don't know the answer to that, but across the board, baseball stadiums in burgeoning downtown areas are seen as huge catalysts to their development.

and for your second point, i'm not in the business of arguing who should or should not pay for these things. i'm simply arguing that once the decision is made to have the stadium built, placing them in downtowns is a great idea, in the right places, like BOA seems to be over there by the freeway. again, if there's a better spot downtown for the baseball stadium, i'm very open to that idea, but i'm very confident that placing it someplace downtown will add significantly more to the urban fabric of the city than detract. again, there are plenty of examples in cities much larger than durham that are experiencing downtown revivals led in part by their baseball stadiums.