THE Downtown Market updates

[x99]

 

[Okay, I gave up on trying to get the quote feature to work properly in the updated software... So insert GRDad quote here:  " Plus, it wasn't ever meant to be a place where you could do your grocery shopping. I remember at a huge press conference for the unveiling of the plans and several reporters/people asked if this was going to fill the downtown "grocery market" need, and they definitely said "NO." It's a foodie destination, and a way to get more people interested in local food businesses."  ]

 

I disagree.  GRCF said (in 2010) that "we believe in [the Downtown Market's] mission to educate the community and bring fresh foods to an area with limited access..." when giving a grant for $150k.  The 2010 background sheet prepared by Grand Action kicks off by noting local interest in building a "year-round, public indoor market".  In 2012 from The Rapidian: "This is not your typical farmers market,” said Jon Nunn, executive director of Grand Action. “We will provide a resource to fill a void in what is virtually a food desert. Our focus is inclusiveness and will be reflective of the needs of the entire community. We also see ongoing partnerships developing with the education and healthcare communities,” he said.  

You really had to read pretty far down the page and in between a lot of lines to figure out that Grand Action/Downtown Market's vision of a "public indoor market" was not what most people would think.  Nunn's buzzword laden jargon up above says the place will be exactly what Mr. Levi I-have-a-Master's-degree-in-"community sustainability and food systems" Gardner thinks it ought to be (and which almost everyone seems to agree it is not).  So if you judge the place by its primary PR campaign, it is quite clearly a failure.  If you judge it as a place that caters to upper middle class people who might otherwise shop at Whole Foods, it doesn't do all that well there either.  I may disagree with some of the the Rapidian article, but by and large the analysis is spot on if you accept the premise laid out by Jon Nunn back in 2012.   

The only way the Downtown Market has been a success to date is if it is judged as a development catalyst, and even then whether this was $30 million well spent is subject to debate.  Had they spent half that to build a more reasonable building and rented it to Whole Foods for free, the area would have been set on fire.  I'm not willing to hand out a free pass just because someone did at least some good with an awful lot of money to build what still smacks of a fairly aimless vanity project.

Edited September 3, 2015 by x99

[EastownLeo]

The Market did open with a produce section inside its space.  The produce was not local, not organic, and that vendor soon pulled out.  One reason could have been because outdoor vendors were competition, especially during the summer months. The prices were market rate but why choose a non-local onion for $1  when you can get a local onion for $1.50. 

The initial visitors to the market were not those that lived in the area, or those with limited income.  Those with high income and make the trip downtown are not the type of buyers that are pinching pennies.

I was sad to see the produce shop go, but I was never sure how they fit in when everything thing else around them was pushing "local, sustainable and organic".

[GRDadof3]

The Market did open with a produce section inside its space.  The produce was not local, not organic, and that vendor soon pulled out.  One reason could have been because outdoor vendors were competition, especially during the summer months. The prices were market rate but why choose a non-local onion for $1  when you can get a local onion for $1.50. 

The initial visitors to the market were not those that lived in the area, or those with limited income.  Those with high income and make the trip downtown are not the type of buyers that are pinching pennies.

I was sad to see the produce shop go, but I was never sure how they fit in when everything thing else around them was pushing "local, sustainable and organic".

 

$1.50 for an onion!!?? Highway robbery.  

There is a produce section, in the Northwest corner by the coffee shop, called Relish Green Grocer. Supplied by local farms. 

Have y'all been to the Downtown Market lately?  

 

Edited September 3, 2015 by GRDadof3

[GRDadof3]

[Okay, I gave up on trying to get the quote feature to work properly in the updated software... So insert GRDad quote here:  " Plus, it wasn't ever meant to be a place where you could do your grocery shopping. I remember at a huge press conference for the unveiling of the plans and several reporters/people asked if this was going to fill the downtown "grocery market" need, and they definitely said "NO." It's a foodie destination, and a way to get more people interested in local food businesses."  ]

 

I disagree.  GRCF said (in 2010) that "we believe in [the Downtown Market's] mission to educate the community and bring fresh foods to an area with limited access..." when giving a grant for $150k.  The 2010 background sheet prepared by Grand Action kicks off by noting local interest in building a "year-round, public indoor market".  In 2012 from The Rapidian: "This is not your typical farmers market,” said Jon Nunn, executive director of Grand Action. “We will provide a resource to fill a void in what is virtually a food desert. Our focus is inclusiveness and will be reflective of the needs of the entire community. We also see ongoing partnerships developing with the education and healthcare communities,” he said.  

You really had to read pretty far down the page and in between a lot of lines to figure out that Grand Action/Downtown Market's vision of a "public indoor market" was not what most people would think.  Nunn's buzzword laden jargon up above says the place will be exactly what Mr. Levi I-have-a-Master's-degree-in-"community sustainability and food systems" Gardner thinks it ought to be (and which almost everyone seems to agree it is not).  So if you judge the place by its primary PR campaign, it is quite clearly a failure.  If you judge it as a place that caters to upper middle class people who might otherwise shop at Whole Foods, it doesn't do all that well there either.  I may disagree with some of the the Rapidian article, but by and large the analysis is spot on if you accept the premise laid out by Jon Nunn back in 2012.   

The only way the Downtown Market has been a success to date is if it is judged as a development catalyst, and even then whether this was $30 million well spent is subject to debate.  Had they spent half that to build a more reasonable building and rented it to Whole Foods for free, the area would have been set on fire.  I'm not willing to hand out a free pass just because someone did at least some good with an awful lot of money to build what still smacks of a fairly aimless vanity project.

 

Actually if Whole Foods opened there, all of the lots around it (and the buildings) would be sitting vacant still because the land value would have tripled in price and not been economically viable as development projects. The only reason why Klingman's and Baker FINALLY got redeveloped was because of the LIHTC program. There's no way either building could have gone market rate with the work that needed to be done in them, otherwise they would've been redeveloped a long time ago.

The Downtown Market seems A LOT like the Milwaukee Public Market, which I think was one that they compared it to during design phase.

It all seems like nuance to me, and a lot of empty complaining. Through the programming in the DTM, they are serving the nearby neighborhoods in providing educational programs around agri-business and community gardens. On the same level as Baxter Community Center for instance? Or Feeding America West Michigan? No, but did people REALLY believe this was going to be a Baxter Community Center type place? Is that actually what people wanted downtown? 

I think people claiming that it's a "failure" don't really have any basis for it. Ask the businesses how it's going. Why, as soon as some of the vendors closed up, were they replaced immediately by another? Why would businesses like a meat market and a fish market with a very short shelf life of their product continue to do it 2 years later if it wasn't working? 

 

Edited September 3, 2015 by GRDadof3

[arcturus]

Was there yesterday.  Yes a nice day but man, was it busy!  Outdoor bar and swap meet in the parking lot going on.  

[ant33]

Decent article about the downtown markets progress through the first two years..

http://www.grbj.com/articles/83351-downtown-market-thriving-despite-bumps

[x99]

Decent article about the downtown markets progress through the first two years..

I know, I know, this is a typical GRBJ fluff piece (and they all are), but seriously--How do you blow your utilities estimate by $200,000.00?  That's insane.  You need to do a bit of reading between the lines to get the story that the whole concept was not well thought out, that the right "stakeholders" were not consulted, demand metrics were dramatically off, the farmer's market is flailing, the "teaching kitchen" concept was a fiasco, and that for two years they have essentially been winging it and trying to pivot from failure to success.  This has not gone like other Grand Action projects.  The article could have more appropriately been titled "Downtown Market Struggles, But Keeps Trying".  Saying it is "thriving" is a bit of stretch.... Oh, well.  At least the retail sales are meeting projections, even if the projections were a little laughable compared to what any "normal" retailer would need to see with that sort of space.  Here's hoping they still manage to pull it together.

[GRDadof3]

Permits have been issued for 435 Ionia (DTMarket): Interior buildout of new restaurant in new vacant space including replacement of some storefront windows with new operable units. according to the city's commercial permit report. 

I assume it's for Social Kitchen.

 

[GRDadof3]

Woot! I've been waiting for this infill in the market since the day it opened. Must have started this over the Thanksgiving break? 

Part of their recent application was to open this up to the outside and create a patio along Ionia, much like Slow's. 

 

 

 

[getemngo]

I tried out Slow's on Saturday. Very good food (I had a sandwich), but I was surprised that at 5:00 there was no line and the dining area was maybe 2/3 full. Maybe it was because of Thanksgiving weekend... but I drove by just before 6 last night and Slow's looked awfully deserted. My Detroit friends say that at the Detroit location, an hour+ wait is typical. Hopefully it does better at lunch than what I've seen at dinner.

[ctpgr34]

The 2 times I have been there for lunch there was no line, 1/3 full. 

[GR_Urbanist]

With the Social Kitchen taking up this front space, what becomes of the seating that existed there? Is it just gone now?

[GRDadof3]

11 minutes ago, GR_Urbanist said:

With the Social Kitchen taking up this front space, what becomes of the seating that existed there? Is it just gone now?

Presumably so, although as a sign says near the work area right now "Additional seating available on the second floor. " 

I've heard that the market is looking at the seating situation and trying to add more on the ground floor (like they did near the fish market). Good problem to have I guess. 

[mpchicago]

It's my understanding that it was never the market's intent to have "food court" style seating on the main floor.  The balcony area was designed to be used for mass seating.  It's similar to what they have at the Milwaukee Public Market.  People just got used to having that huge area to sit, eat, and have their kids run around, but as we know that area was always intended for a full service restaurant, which it now will.  

Edited December 2, 2015 by mpchicago

[GRDadof3]

4 hours ago, mpchicago said:

It's my understanding that it was never the market's intent to have "food court" style seating on the main floor.  The balcony area was designed to be used for mass seating.  It's similar to what they have at the Milwaukee Public Market.  People just got used to having that huge area to sit, eat, and have their kids run around, but as we know that area was always intended to have a full service restaurant, which it now will.  

 

I think it will have a more exciting feel to it as you come in the entrance once this is finished. 

[keeselbmag]

Looks like Montello's is closing the Downtown Market location, effective tomorrow:

They announced it on their Facebook.

[GRDadof3]

1 hour ago, keeselbmag said:

Looks like Montello's is closing the Downtown Market location, effective tomorrow:

They announced it on their Facebook.

"You are in our prayers" 

Huh? Why are we in their prayers? 

 

[john_denver]

Maybe to fill that soon to be big open space?

[GR_Urbanist]

No way to spin this one. The Downtown Market just took a major hit to their reputation and image if they cant quickly fill this hole (as in before spring), as a butcher was a major part of their promotion of the market as a legitimate food source, or at least as an complete marketplace.

And if a major tenant like this couldn't stay afloat, then how many of the more niche ones will see this and say "what's our excuse for being here"?

[john_denver]

I assume it will become a  very nice food court.

[GRDadof3]

17 hours ago, john_denver said:

I assume it will become a  very nice food court.

Ha, I doubt it will be vacant for very long. 

[thebeerqueer]

On Tuesday, December 01, 2015 3:47:51, getemngo said:

I tried out Slow's on Saturday. Very good food (I had a sandwich), but I was surprised that at 5:00 there was no line and the dining area was maybe 2/3 full. Maybe it was because of Thanksgiving weekend... but I drove by just before 6 last night and Slow's looked awfully deserted. My Detroit friends say that at the Detroit location, an hour+ wait is typical. Hopefully it does better at lunch than what I've seen at dinner.

Had dinner at Slow's last night around 6:30 and there were maybe 10 other people in there and they're open until 9 PM. Makes me wonder how they're surviving. Catering??

 

 

On Friday, December 04, 2015 3:34:50, keeselbmag said:

Looks like Montello's is closing the Downtown Market location, effective tomorrow:

They announced it on their Facebook.

 

Also Thornburg and Company is out of their space. That might have happened a while ago and I didn't notice. That's a bummer, their barrel aged balsamic vinegar was super tasty.

[egrguy]

1 hour ago, thebeerqueer said:

Had dinner at Slow's last night around 6:30 and there were maybe 10 other people in there and they're open until 9 PM. Makes me wonder how they're surviving. Catering??

 

 

 

Also Thornburg and Company is out of their space. That might have happened a while ago and I didn't notice. That's a bummer, their barrel aged balsamic vinegar was super tasty.

Lunch?

I was there for lunch my past several visits and its been full. 

[GRDadof3]

2 hours ago, thebeerqueer said:

Had dinner at Slow's last night around 6:30 and there were maybe 10 other people in there and they're open until 9 PM. Makes me wonder how they're surviving. Catering??

 

 

 

Also Thornburg and Company is out of their space. That might have happened a while ago and I didn't notice. That's a bummer, their barrel aged balsamic vinegar was super tasty.

People tend to eat dinner close to where they live, unless it's a special occasion. No one lives near the DT Market, that has disposable income to afford to eat out like that anyway. 

The white collar people who work downtown keep it pretty busy at lunch. 

[arcturus]

Nice to have a restaurant willing to forgo added revenue because of location.  Not many have that option, especially in high rent districts.