Division / Wealthy and ICCF

[x99]

Maybe they are not business executives like they are in DC or NY, but "business people" and other choice riders are comprised of the full strata of society - income, ethnic background, working/student/unemployed, and age.

I always love it when someone posits that people with any significant amount of money would ride a bus in this town. My whole point, originally, was that the Div/Wealthy project needs to have parking unless its going to cater to lower-income people without any disposable income. No one seems to be disputing that point. Do we really need another debate about mass transit? Do we really need to yank out the numbers again that show it costs more to operate that it does to buy used cars and gas for the people that ride it? Seriously, it does. The answer is to build parking lots. Build lots of them. There, I said it. You want a successful city, and want to deal with GR's demographics and population reality? Build one where you can park for free, and hide it from the street. Cars rule. Live with it. Thank heaven ICCF is at least getting that part of this dead on right.

[gvsusean]

I always love it when someone posits that people with any significant amount of money would ride a bus in this town. My whole point, originally, was that the Div/Wealthy project needs to have parking unless its going to cater to lower-income people without any disposable income. No one seems to be disputing that point. Do we really need another debate about mass transit? Do we really need to yank out the numbers again that show it costs more to operate that it does to buy used cars and gas for the people that ride it? Seriously, it does. The answer is to build parking lots. Build lots of them. There, I said it. You want a successful city, and want to deal with GR's demographics and population reality? Build one where you can park for free, and hide it from the street. Cars rule. Live with it. Thank heaven ICCF is at least getting that part of this dead on right.

Wait! The secret to successful cities is to build giant parking lots? OMG I knew we were doing something wrong! *rolls eyes

[Jippy]

x99, lest we forgot how this transit/parking conversation ever began, it began with you! You surmise that anyone with "significant income" (not really sure that I know what that means, but I will play along) will never enter a bus unless they are provided with a well-furnished and expansive sea of parking, and evidently we now need lots of them. I feel like I have entered the twilight Urban Renewal Era all over again. While I would not dispute that some well-placed park-and-rides would be helpful at the southern end of the Silver Line, the idea that disposable income residents will only drive unless given a parking lots is quite ridiculous. My whole point is that choice riders come in all stripes. Some live in the burbs, some live downtown, and some live in the streetcar neighborhoods just steps away from a bus stop. Thus parking certainly plays an important role in the evolution of Grand Rapids, it is not the linchpin of success for the bus system. Reliability, predictability, cleanliness and frequency are going to be much more important drivers to its success.

[organsnyder]

You want a successful city, and want to deal with GR's demographics and population reality? Build one where you can park for free, and hide it from the street. Cars rule. Live with it.

Tell that to the current real estate market (at least here in GR). My wife and I recently purchased a new house, and houses with the attributes we were looking for — walkability, neighborhood stability, etc. — were selling within weeks, if priced right. Houses in the outer ring of the city limits, such as the Calvin College area, were staying on the market much longer, even though they were priced lower per square foot, were newer, and had nice yards.

Downtown has seen astounding growth over the past decade — even with the supposed lack of parking. Compare that to the suburban centers: the new ones (Celebration North) are doing well, but others (Roger's Plaza) are failing. If parking is the panacea you're making it out to be, why isn't Wyoming's sea of empty parking spaces and easy highway accessibility leading to a flurry of redevelopment?

[x99]

Downtown has seen astounding growth over the past decade — even with the supposed lack of parking. Compare that to the suburban centers: the new ones (Celebration North) are doing well, but others (Roger's Plaza) are failing. If parking is the panacea you're making it out to be, why isn't Wyoming's sea of empty parking spaces and easy highway accessibility leading to a flurry of redevelopment?

I look out my window, and what do I see? Parking ramps everywhere, staring back at me. Does anyone really think business people downtown ride the bus? Does anyone really think people living in pricey downtown condos are riding the bus? I lived downtown. No one--but no one--took the bus. I live in a "walkable" neighborhood. Still no one takes the bus a mile and a half downtown. Everyone has cars. There is no lack of parking--not even a "supposed" lack. There's just a lack of free parking. Downtown has seen growth because it had nowhere to go but up, and a few rich people turned on giant fire hoses of cash to save it.

As for Wyoming, let's not gild the lily. Wyoming isn't going anywhere because its old, dirty, and littered with junky 900 square foot ranch houses that no one wants. It has all the charm of an old gym sock. Wyoming pooped out because of population shift. Celebration North is doing good because people with $50k+ incomes live there. Rivertown, too.

And Jippy, I'm not saying that anyone with a "significant" income won't get on a bus unless they have a big parking lot. I'm saying anyone with a "significant" income isn't going to ride a bus, period. Buses are silly. Trying to plan for people to ride the bus is stupid. Plan for people to drive, and you do better. For that, ICCF gets bonus points. Will parking alone build a successful urban development? No. But failure to include adequate parking will certainly cause failure.

I wish ICCF wasn't putting the parking right on the street, but at least its there, so let's stop ripping on them for having "too much parking." That's a dumb criticism. Let's look at what actually matters, and what is causing the apparent problem of no tenants taking space. It ain't too much parking. My concern is seeing this development take off, mature, and continue to grow. What constructive ways are there to do that? Why can't they attract a grocery store tenant? Why are they having to cut buildings out the plan altogether? Is the "Division and Wealthy" stigma still too much to overcome?

[Quercus]

One thing I am glad to see is that ICCF is paying attention to reality, and designing with adequate parking. When it the people becomes so numerous that we really need to take a bus to avoid the hassle, the transit will follow. It isn't goign to happen in reverse.

The answer is to build parking lots. Build lots of them. There, I said it. Cars rule. Live with it.

How much parking is adequate? What do you think of the city's minimum parking standards? How often should parking lots be full? In my opinion, we need free market parking prices, not mandated, subsidized parking. May I suggest a book: The High Cost of Free Parking. When you plan for people to drive, it has enormous fiscal, environmental, and social costs, the likes of which we're only beginning to understand. Automobiles have their place, but to cater a city to them is municipal suicide.

The school is the worst thing possible, from a perspective of revitalizing this area. I can hardly think of a use that would be worse or more unfortunate.

Schools often anchor neighborhoods and give citizens a reason to be involved in the surrounding community. They also act as landmarks and meeting places for civic and private events; I can think of a few land uses that would detract more from this project and the revitalization of the area.

People who ride buses in this town are people who have to because they don't have enough money for a car...

This is an old stereotype of bus riders that's never been true. For many folks, riding the bus is a lifestyle choice: it has environmental benefits like reducing greenhouse gas production and the need for impervious surfaces; it makes time for other activities such as reading or watching tv on a mobile device; it's a more social activity and increases ones chances of bumping into a friend or making a new acquaintance; it's safer (bus versus SUV...bus wins); it can be cheaper and faster (for some reason no one likes to include the search for a parking spot in their automobile commute time-that feels like cheating to me); the list goes on and on.

Does anyone really think business people downtown ride the bus? Does anyone really think people living in pricey downtown condos are riding the bus?

Yes, business people ride the bus. Yes, condo owners ride the bus. I'm in the first camp and I know people in both groups. DASH is a big success and is one of the reasons the City is considering installing a streetcar downtown.

[GRDadof3]

Tell that to the current real estate market (at least here in GR). My wife and I recently purchased a new house, and houses with the attributes we were looking for — walkability, neighborhood stability, etc. — were selling within weeks, if priced right. Houses in the outer ring of the city limits, such as the Calvin College area, were staying on the market much longer, even though they were priced lower per square foot, were newer, and had nice yards.

Downtown has seen astounding growth over the past decade — even with the supposed lack of parking. Compare that to the suburban centers: the new ones (Celebration North) are doing well, but others (Roger's Plaza) are failing. If parking is the panacea you're making it out to be, why isn't Wyoming's sea of empty parking spaces and easy highway accessibility leading to a flurry of redevelopment?

Whoa, hold on a minute. Homes in some suburban areas are now selling pretty quickly too. I think you'd really have to do a complete analysis of "city" vs "suburban" homes to make any conclusive statement that people now prefer the city.

Also, as I understand it, the lack of parking at Icon on Bond was a big reason why those did not sell well as condos. The Boardwalk has ample parking in the ramp attached. River House couldn't even get started until they had a solid parking deal worked out with Bridgewater Place. 38 Commerce and Gallery each have attached convenient covered parking. The Fitzgerald has indoor parking. They pretty much all do. Apartment renters are a little more forgiving on the parking. You basically can't live downtown without a car, particularly if you don't work downtown.

[organsnyder]

Whoa, hold on a minute. Homes in some suburban areas are now selling pretty quickly too. I think you'd really have to do a complete analysis of "city" vs "suburban" homes to make any conclusive statement that people now prefer the city.

My argument was probably overstated, but I do think that comparing city vs. suburban neighborhoods within the same municipality is a more apples-to-apples comparison than comparing the city to the suburbs proper. In the latter comparison, there are other factors — schools being the most obvious — that impact the decision.

[fotoman311]

This is an old stereotype of bus riders that's never been true. For many folks, riding the bus is a lifestyle choice: it has environmental benefits like reducing greenhouse gas production and the need for impervious surfaces; it makes time for other activities such as reading or watching tv on a mobile device; it's a more social activity and increases ones chances of bumping into a friend or making a new acquaintance; it's safer (bus versus SUV...bus wins); it can be cheaper and faster (for some reason no one likes to include the search for a parking spot in their automobile commute time-that feels like cheating to me); the list goes on and on.

We have a friend who drives every morning from her apt. on Fountain near College to a south DASH lot, just so she can socialize with her DASH friends every morning on her way to her job at Ottawa and Lyon. We give her crap about it all the time, since she could walk to work in ~15 minutes.

I have a co-worker who owns a decent size pickup and recently started riding the bus to and from work everyday from Wyoming because at $12/week, his bus pass is cheaper than his gas and maintenance on the truck. Plus, he called his insurance company and was able to get a discount for using transit for his daily commute. And he said he really enjoys the 10 minute walk to and from Rapid Central station. That's one less truck all those folks on 131 are fighting with each morning and evening.

People have all different reasons for riding the bus.

[Veloise]

Open house Saturday, 10 am - 2 pm.

I toured last month, and the places are very nice.

[RegalTDP]

Tapestry Sqaure?

 

Edit: I knew about the apartments. Didnt know about the spa, salon, sandwhich shop, coffee shop, or grocery store.

 

Bump - Just to get the last post back on the right thread.

 

The grocery store (i.e. who will fill the space) has been a big point of discussion here for a while now.  At this point, will they find anybody?  It's been a long time.  BTW, for all our complaints about surface parking, I still don't understand why they don't design for rooftop or basement parking.  So many supermarkets in downtown settings are designed that way.

 

On the other stuff: I hadn't heard about the day spa, sandwich shop, and coffee shop either.  Not bad.  Last time MLive covered this, there were unspecified letters of intent to fill those retail spots.  Nice to hear those are moving forward.

Edited December 5, 2012 by RegalTDP

[GR_Urbanist]

No grocery wants to locate to the area because they want to be able to at least make a profit. They just dont think that people from Heritage Hill/Uptown or from the area condos are going to support them enough. They dont want to have to be the EBT or Heartside Homeless grocery as un-PC as it sounds, not to mention all the hassel from litter, loiters, and shoplifting.

 

if anyone jumps in, it will be a very high-end place with odd hours and few traditional staples. A larger version of Grand Central Market.

 

As for the parking? Nothing short of a miricale will keep this place from looking like it was plucked out of28th street now that he message of desperation is the only thing going out about this site. If they get a mainstream grocer to move here, they will have 100% control over the look and layout, and that will not include one thing that will remotely try to fit in an urban setting.

[Jippy]

Most grocers have now adopted an urban format model. Meijer/Spartan, of course, only have suburban models, but it is only a matter of time -- they are leaving huge swaths of population to their competitors within their existing distrubtion areas, and they certainly are not exclusively low-income.  

 

In regards to if that will ever occur at this site, ICCF holds the cards as they can stipulate the layout in the purchase/lease of the property. Grocers will of course propose the 28th Street style first, but that doesn't mean they won't build urban. The City/DDA can apply a fair amount of leverage as well because the store will undoubtedly receive some hefty incentives from the city. These incentives should be contingent on a complementary design. 

 

Jonathan Bradford is right, it's only a matter of time.  With another approx 500 residential units/1000+ employees within a mile radius potentially coming online within the next 5 years, there will soon be sufficient demand in the store's market area. The US Census Bureau indicates that there are 8800 residents per grocery store -- and this doesn't take into account the size of the store (super stores vs urban stores are obviously different sizes and have different market areas). Clearly, there are more folks living within the potential market area at this location. I would make a bet that if Spartan, Plumbs or Meijer doesn't jump, a Walmart neighborhood center might waltz on in....that would be an ironic poke in the eye to the inventor of the super center.

Edited December 5, 2012 by Jippy

[Veloise]

Most grocers have now adopted an urban format model. Meijer/Spartan, of course, only have suburban models, but it is only a matter of time -- they are leaving huge swaths of population to their competitors within their existing distrubtion areas, and they certainly are not exclusively low-income.  

 

In regards to if that will ever occur at this site, ICCF holds the cards as they can stipulate the layout in the purchase/lease of the property. Grocers will of course propose the 28th Street style first, but that doesn't mean they won't build urban. The City/DDA can apply a fair amount of leverage as well because the store will undoubtedly receive some hefty incentives from the city. These incentives should be contingent on a complementary design. 

 

Jonathan Bradford is right, it's only a matter of time.  With another approx 500 residential units/1000+ employees within a mile radius potentially coming online within the next 5 years, there will soon be sufficient demand in the store's market area. The US Census Bureau indicates that there are 8800 residents per grocery store -- and this doesn't take into account the size of the store (super stores vs urban stores are obviously different sizes and have different market areas). Clearly, there are more folks living within the potential market area at this location. I would make a bet that if Spartan, Plumbs or Meijer doesn't jump, a Walmart neighborhood center might waltz on in....that would be an ironic poke in the eye to the inventor of the super center.

Jippy, please post a link to your source, thanks! I was thinking of posting something very similar, but no longer have the bookmark for the Census-related site that pulls up individual tracts, population numbers, density, incomes, etc.

 

I do not see regular updates about residental units all occupied, retail bays spoken for, "we don't have a grocery store lined up yet" as being desperate. Just pieces of the puzzle falling into place. But then I live about 1-1/2 miles from the site, and would likely visit the future grocery store several times a week.

Edited December 5, 2012 by Veloise

[organsnyder]

Seems like a perfect location for a Ken's Fruit Market. They now have two locations (the original one in Alger Heights and their new one on Plainfield), and I recall seeing a quote from Aaron Courts (one of the owners) that they'd like to get up to 6-7 eventually.

[Jippy]

Veloise, I have seen more detailed analysis in the past that have had full breakouts for each use and required job/res unit required to serve, but the one I came across comes from ULI, which is a trusted source.

http://urbanland.uli.org/Articles/2011/May/ScullyRethink

 

I happen to live near an urban format grocery store, and I can attest that sporadic/large purchase trips are replaced by near daily small-purchase trips (which I tend to prefer). We also have evolved into a  smaller palette of needed items in response to the fewer product offerings in a small urban store, which simplifies life!

[egrguy]

The residential is full with the second phase to start next spring. mlive had a decent article o the spa. I'm hoping for something interesting for the coffee shop (we have many excellent choices in GR - Rowsters, Mad Cap, Kava House, etc) that I will be bummed if its a Tim horton or similar. Same goes for the sandwich shop.

[RegalTDP]

Most grocers have now adopted an urban format model. Meijer/Spartan, of course, only have suburban models, but it is only a matter of time -- they are leaving huge swaths of population to their competitors within their existing distrubtion areas, and they certainly are not exclusively low-income.  [...]

 

Jonathan Bradford is right, it's only a matter of time.  With another approx 500 residential units/1000+ employees within a mile radius potentially coming online within the next 5 years, there will soon be sufficient demand in the store's market area. The US Census Bureau indicates that there are 8800 residents per grocery store -- and this doesn't take into account the size of the store (super stores vs urban stores are obviously different sizes and have different market areas). Clearly, there are more folks living within the potential market area at this location. I would make a bet that if Spartan, Plumbs or Meijer doesn't jump, a Walmart neighborhood center might waltz on in....that would be an ironic poke in the eye to the inventor of the super center.

 

I agree it's only only a matter of time, and I don't buy the "Heartside has too much homeless/EBT" argument at all, mainly because lots of supermarket chains elsewhere in the country already put up urban format stores in high-homeless areas.  I suspect the reason Spartan and Meijer haven't moved to an urban format in GR is because they're already serving those costumers; they know they can rely on Center City residents to drive out to their stores.  So why build new a store to serve customers they have already?  Why take the mountain to Mohammed?  Those two chains won't move downtown with any sense of urgency unless the market changes.  Like Jippy said... If downtown keeps growing, and Plumbs or Wal-Mart (which would be hilarious) decided to put a location in central GR, Spartan and Meijer would be forced to actually compete for those customers, and would immediately take interest in that area.

 

But for now, whatever happens, I just really hope ICCF doesn't end up with another dollar store there.

Edited December 12, 2012 by RegalTDP

[dbrock1046]

Not sure if posting to the right place, but drove by St Marys/Mary Free Bed and looks like they have moved in some heavy machines for the building of the new addition.

[MiGuyz]

One of ICCF's Tapestry Square commercial spaces now has a Subway sign in the window. 

[Allison Slater]

Yet one more place to get an 11" footlong.  Oh goody.

[John E]

Yet one more place to get an 11" footlong.  Oh goody.

Did you see a meet slicer threw the window?

lol

[Allison Slater]

They don't slice their own meat.  They get it frozen, just like the bread which also comes frozen.  "Eat Fresh" hah, okay, I'll go to Jimmy John's then if I want to eat fresh.

Edited March 3, 2013 by tSlater

[GRDadof3]

They don't slice their own meat.  They get it frozen, just like the bread which also comes frozen.  "Eat Fresh" hah, okay, I'll go to Jimmy John's then if I want to eat fresh.

 

Subway's bread tastes like it's corrugated. Yugk.

[Gorath]

UPrep will have their ribbon cutting ceremony tomorrow (Wednesday June 12th). Not sure if that means construction is done, but this school should be ready in time for fall classes.

 

http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2013/06/uprep_academy_business_leaders.html

 

Edit: Fixed.  Thanks Dad.

Edited June 11, 2013 by Gorath