241 replies to this topic

[Cotuit]

Soren, on Mar 10 2005, 07:33 AM, said:

1. Increase RIPTA trolley service to gradually replicate a streetcar system.  Keep this as cheap as possible for users.  Have this become so ubiquitous that Providence residents have to consider why they are *not* using it for trips in town. Replace these weird circuitous routes with direct lines into Kennedy Plaza from anywhere in the city.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've been thinking about this, I have a few ideas for routes that I'm going to try to draw something for. I'd also like to get rid of the stupid tourist trolleys, they're cute, but terribly uncomfortable, and don't work in the snow. There are modern looking cars that could be sent out on these routes and be very distinctive. We need the trolleys to morph into a handful of key routes that run on very short headways that residents and visitors can rely on. When someone goes somewhere served by the LINK system, they would know, that they're return bus is never more than 10 minutes away. No need to check schedules or anything.

[DaveRPI]

Vallon, on Mar 9 2005, 04:07 PM, said:

Obviously you wouldn't want to disturb dense neighborhoods. In evitably when you're building an interstate you're going to have to do some demolition of existing buildings. You hope that when you're doing it you're not going to have to do what New York did with the Bronx... cutting a channel for 95 through the heart of that community...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i understand your points and agree with most... disturbing dense neighborhoods does not bother me at all though. would everyone rather disturb suburban or rural neighborhoods instead? to me thats the same thing in most cases. things change all the time. put a train or highway thru rehoboth and see how many urban villages, condo complexes, apts, and even shopping plazas spurt up thru there. how do you think rt 95, 195, and 295 were put into RI? they cut right thru neighborhoods. ive heard of many very dense neighborhoods in RI that were cut out due to "for the good of the many." planners determined the best paths for future use and the paths with not too many property casualties and they put a superhighway in. when you look back, what a great and bold decision they made. can you imagine them trying to put rt 95 in now!!!! haha yeah right! can you imagine RI without rt 95? can you imagine our economy without it? we wouldnt have even been the speed bump on the way to the cape! we would have been the state everyone drove around because it takes 2 hours to travel thru a 30 mile wide state! bold changes are the only ones that work. going halfway only leaves you open to attacks from competitors. This is why foxwoods keeps adding on- thats why the they want to create a power block- thats why paolino wants his towers over 20 stories, etc. so i agree with your bold ideas, but there are so many nimby's, so many people who have nothing better to do than to offer an opposing position because they do not want change, so many people who are uninformed about how things grow, and so many people who only care about themselves. or are there only a few speaking for the many? i think this website says it all. the many are speaking here finally, but the "many" are the ones who do not speak up when so many projects get presented and the "few" are the ones who do and then create a situation where the public believes they are a legitimate majority opinion. blah blah blah, sorry i get typing and off topic so many times... lol

ok to summarize...

we need a huge, bold, and forward looking transit system presented now. it takes forever to get these things built and so many people will pick and pry things away from the overall proposal that by the end it will only be half as large. so i say go so big that when it gets built its the original size we wanted it anyways! and i dont even mind if the gov't runs it... rail needs to be there, its just like the highways from the 60's to me....

[eltron]

DaveRPI, on Mar 10 2005, 12:35 PM, said:

how do you think rt 95, 195, and 295 were put into RI? they cut right thru neighborhoods. ive heard of many very dense neighborhoods in RI that were cut out due to "for the good of the many." when you look back, what a great and bold decision they made.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think MANY, MANY people would disagree with you here, myself being one of them. I would argue that they in most cases the planners of the time made huge mistakes, to in many cases horrific consequences, and we are now spending billions, if not trillions (The Big Dig says hi...) to at least partially alleviate those mistakes.

I could imagine a quite wonderful Rhode Island without a route 95, or at least one that didn't rip a giant gash through the city and some of its most interesting neighbhorhoods.

[Liamlunchtray]

eltron, on Mar 10 2005, 11:43 AM, said:

I could imagine a quite wonderful Rhode Island without a route 95, or at least one that didn't rip a giant gash through the city and some of its most interesting neighbhorhoods.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I cant imagine RI without 95, but I would certainly love it if it didnt split the city. I think that decking it over is far and away the best idea (At least from Atwells to Broad st)

There were certainly a lot of mistakes made in building the interstate system, but there was also a huge amount of good that came out of it. With most of the mistakes it is a hindsight is 20/20 kind of issue. It would have been hard for them to know how drasticly 95 would split the city before it was built.

Liam

[eltron]

Liamlunchtray, on Mar 10 2005, 12:59 PM, said:

With most of the mistakes it is a hindsight is 20/20 kind of issue.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is certainly true...
which is exactly why we shouldn't make the same mistakes twice. All of the rail and alternative transit that has been talked about in this thread is exactly what is needed here, not a single additional highway, but even within these "alternative" systems, it is important to take into account the people who will be directly affected by their path.

The urban highway system OVERWHELMINGLY displaced poor people, between 80 and 85% of people displaced were poor urban dwellers. And what happened to them? They were moved to the Projects, another failed experiment that we are now spending billions of dollars and tons of effort trying to correct. This doesn't even count the thousands of cool historic structures (those same ones we love in our communities now) that were lost to the wrecking ball forever...

But really, we live in another time now, I think we understand complex urban systems much better now and we can do better...remember, being bold does not beget being smart.

[DaveRPI]

i dont know if horrific is the correct term for the split. its staggering how many businesses use our proximity to 95 as a tool to make money. even towns go out of their way to say we are in the 95 corridor to attract business and tourism. you cannot please everybody. i agree that there are mistakes made. mistakes are always made in everything we do- thats life. i just got all excited with these ideas and i was thinking about change.- especially economically. i really like the vision for GE that walsh put forth to drive business and i was thinking how it applies to so many other areas. a stance must be taken and we must run with it or not even bother because only doing things half way is wasting our time. whats our main goal? for RI to prosper? B) not everyone will be happy because tough decisions will need to made and there is always opposition. it becomes like taxes and death. for construction projects in new england you could prolly say its inevitable. here's a new slogan... death, taxes, and opposition to building heights and traffic...

by the way, RI's highway layout is pretty good if you think about it, cept for a few nutty interchanges in prov and S-curves in the bucket
very direct routes, by-pass roads, lots of exit ramps, etc
the providence chamber of commerce even endorses this fact in one of their publications... i forget which yr's issue it was in, hmm...

the problem with all this rail talk is that there is no room to put these rail lines or trolley lines in without stepping on a lot of property owners toes, and, being the way things work now, good luck getting anything built within the next 20 yrs!

if toursim is one of the top 4 industries in RI, we should really think about how a rail system would compliment this... and, how tourists from the 75 mile region around Prov, not just far away places, would be attracted. think about how many people go into boston for day trips... you could expect some of the same down here

if you came to visit RI, would you want to hop on a RIPTA bus and drive an hour between your hotel at the airport to downtown prov then to the bucket to see slater mill, then hop another bus back to prov, etc...? tourists do not want to ride city buses.

but its fun talking about stuff like this with you guys, i love hearing all these different ideas and opinions. its given me so many new things to think about...

[Vallon]

glassandsteel, on Mar 10 2005, 07:10 AM, said:

There are so many reasons to justify this that it's absurd to not already have it  included in a logical, region-wide, growth plan that benefits all cities and towns involved equally.  There is a huge difference between the debate of "property rights" and the need of a state/region to have an infrastucture and zoning plan that prevents economic cannibalization. 
There is a reason that gas and housing prices are obsene, it's the same reason that our taxes go to waste and the school systems suck.  Rail transit may seem like it has nothing to do with these things, but the most productive way to alleviate symptoms is to try and cure the disease.  Imagine living in a place where the car and the television were NOT dominating influences in your life.  Obesity, cancer, heart disease, social apathy, drug abuse (real abuse) of epidemic proportions, resource gluttony, etc?  Couldn't have anything to do with a life of; fast-food, driving everywhere you go, sitting in traffic, a "television program"med youth with nothing to do, thinly stretched school systems, or the needless resources used to live ideally where you can avoid human interaction, right? 
This sort of transit restucturing is not an option but a necessity that could help us absorb the shock of a global resource strain and physically (it's a start) "regroup" our communities.  Cars, gas, maintenance, and insurance are expensive to most people.  For something that originally represented personal freedom, isn't it a sign that we can barely get by without them now?  If we go another decade without huge progress regarding infrastructure and zoning then we can expect suburban areas to start collapsing under their own weight and wreak havoc on our economy.  All our money will be in the hands of the profiting few and our jobs will be overseas.  Boo-hoo.  The sad part is that I bet this forum is the most intense conversation on the subject going on in our area right now, but how likely is it that it will be of any consequence?
If I come off as being on a soapbox then let me know, that's not how I mean to sound.  I (like Soren) just agree with Cotuit that it's more than a matter of convenience, it's a real issue with a rippling effect.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wow... That was an excellent post... Thank you for participating in this thread and for sharing your thoughts with us. While you can question whether or not others see things the way that we do outside of the forum - the only way that anyone will is if we who do see these glaring problems raise our voices and offer real solutions. That's what leadership is... and it doesn't have to come from those holding the reigns of power and money - it can and should come from the people. If enough people become involved and show their interest for a project like this - then those in power will have no choice but to listen. The people of Rhode Island SHOULD and DO have a say in the future of their state. But if we don't excercise our freedoms and don't take the steps necessary to spread these ideas - then we only have ourselves to blame if nothing changes.

I've been considering writing in to local papers ... to increase awareness of the issues discussed here. I'm just one person... but if we make a concerted effort to get these proposals and ideas out into the populace then WE CAN make a difference.

Again... good post, and keep them coming.

[Cotuit]

DaveRPI, on Mar 10 2005, 06:41 PM, said:

if you came to visit RI, would you want to hop on a RIPTA bus and drive an hour between your hotel at the airport to downtown prov then to the bucket to see slater mill, then hop another bus back to prov, etc...? tourists do not want to ride city buses.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I wouldn't want to ride on a RIPTA bus in the condition the system is currently in if I came to Providence as a tourist. However, tourists are not automatically against buses. The Newport trolleys are filled to overflowing during the summer. I don't think anyone would want to be an hour on a bus from T.F. Green to Downcity, but there's no reason they have to be, we have the technology to get masses of people from the airport to Providence quickly and efficiently. I think people would love to take a bus from PVD to Pawtucket for Slaters Mill or a PawSox game. I don't want to deal with driving and parking in a strange city when I'm on vacation. As the baby boomers age we're going to see the bus tour market boom. If we have attractions and a way to get people around Providence easily, bus loads of seniors from around New England will come here and spend money.

[glassandsteel]

Vallon, on Mar 10 2005, 05:48 PM, said:

I've been considering writing in to local papers ... to increase awareness of the issues discussed here. I'm just one person... but if we make a concerted effort to get these proposals and ideas out into the populace then WE CAN make a difference.

That is exactly what can come from these sort of discussions. I am very well aware that many of the topics that are discussed in these forums may not really interest most people, and that is understandable, but if we can continue to bounce thoughts off of each other and develop a thorough understanding of our local environment and the practical solutions to it's ills then it'll become something that you'll carry with you all day.
I think this forum really can become an incubator for social action. This isn't about any particular agenda but respectful strangers conversing about what is going on in their collective home and what can be done about it, a concept that has suffered just as much in recent decades as our cities have.
I will hear out anybody's plan of action.

[Soren]

glassandsteel, on Mar 10 2005, 10:42 PM, said:

That is exactly what can come from these sort of discussions.  I am very well aware that many of the topics that are discussed in these forums may not really interest most people, and that is understandable, but if we can continue to bounce thoughts off of each other and develop a thorough understanding of our local environment and the practical solutions to it's ills then it'll become something that you'll carry with you all day.
I think this forum really can become an incubator for social action.  This isn't about any particular agenda but respectful strangers conversing about what is going on in their collective home and what can be done about it, a concept that has suffered just as much in recent decades as our cities have. 
I will hear out anybody's plan of action.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nicely put. I think you've neatly stated the best that this forum can be as a productive and creative tool to facilitate change.

[Cotuit]

You can also speak to the mayor directly at one of his monthly mayor's nights out. The next is scheduled for March 30th. He actually proposed a metro-wide transit task-force late last year. I don't know where that stands now.

[Vallon]

DaveRPI, on Mar 10 2005, 11:35 AM, said:

i understand your points and agree with most... disturbing dense neighborhoods does not bother me at all though. would everyone rather disturb suburban or rural neighborhoods instead? to me thats the same thing in most cases. things change all the time. put a train or highway thru rehoboth and see how many urban villages, condo complexes, apts, and even shopping plazas spurt up thru there. how do you think rt 95, 195, and 295 were put into RI? they cut right thru neighborhoods. ive heard of many very dense neighborhoods in RI that were cut out due to "for the good of the many." planners determined the best paths for future use and the paths with not too many property casualties and they put a superhighway in. when you look back, what a great and bold decision they made.

Excellent point! I agree with everything you said... I wasn't suggesting that you can only build in areas that are undeveloped. That's part of the problem with RI right now... this massive urban sprawl that exists. I was just stating that those submitting any proposal have to be mindful of how that proposal will impact existing neighborhoods and structures. With any major construction... old buildings, and roads have to make way for new and improved ones.

While 95, 195 and 295 were great achievements at the time they were built - this generation is called to greater accolades that will face the problems of our current era. I think the points made about our impending energy crisis are well made. We cannot continue to depend on oil to fuel our cars and buses. It's not just a matter of war and diplomacy. Government officials frequently say, "we can't depend on foreign oil". But that reality is, the majority of oil that America needs to maintain it's infrastructure does not lie under American soil.

Why have people been working on "alternative" vehicles for years? Why have people been encouraging new forms of energy? New ways to heat our homes? I'll tell you why... We're running out of oil... All government studies say that the majority of the planet's oil wells will be dried up 50 to 100 years from now. Right now we're involved in wars overseas in the heart of the planet's remaining oil stores. We're at the mercy of foreign nations for our heating oil and gasoline. They set the market, and American's have to pay whatever they demand. So it's not just a problem that our kids are going to have to face... it's a problem that all of us are facing right now... and we haven't even touched on the environmental issues.

We hear about depletion of our Ozone Layer... Global Warming... Polar Ice Caps melting... Yet what has America done to correct this? Pollution regulations can only do so much... Our planet is interconnected. America's air quality suffers from what people do across the globe... and they in turn suffer from America's pollution. If we faced America's problems in the here and now, instead of letting our children fix our mess... maybe we will truly be able to give them a brighter America than the one we currently inhabit.

Rhode Island is unique in so many ways from the 49 other States that comprise our Union. We have the smallest state, yet we have an opportunity to be a microcosm of what America could be. We could be the model state with the model city that's the first to embrace and correct the problems of the 21st Century. Rhode Island was the first state to ratify our Constitution, and it could be the first state to ratify a new infrastructure and new balance that would redefine our communities and help Rhode Island to thrive well beyond this century.

There was a time where Newport was the shipping capital of America... more so than New York. We were the State to bring the Industrial Revolution to America... and America thrived as a result. So what will our legacy be now? What can we do to better our state... our communities, and serve as glimmering example for the promise of America?

We could DO something. We could not wait around for the demise of the Oil Age... and remove Rhode Island's depedency on oil completely in the present. We could create a whole new revolution. A revolution brought on by bold thinkers that were not afraid to envision and construct an infrastructure that is useful, efficient and clean. We could make Rhode Island the new "it place", where the rest of America and the world goes to see "how we do it". We could take advantage of a new energy and transit market that WE'VE created. We need ships to come to America, instead of us shipping billions of gallons of oil here from Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Iran. This is how America will prosper... this is how any great civilization prospers. We cannot allow complacency to hinder America's ingenuitive spirit.

So how do we do it?

That's up to you... That's upto what ideas you lay out. I have a few ideas...

-Creating new rail cars... perhaps even tram cars... that run on electricity or possibly magnetic (MAGLEV). Create safe tracks and rail crossings. Possibly use high-speed tracks with trains that act as shuttles... One train that goes back and forth on a regular schedule. The less travel time, and more frequent "trains"... the more fluid traffic is.
-Utilizing Rhode Island's rivers to create new energy... Isn't that why Samuel Slater came here in the first place? Utilize Rhode Island's natural resources... but do so in a way that does not pollute our waters, or our air. We have the means to do this now... and we SHOULD.
-Create an independent power grid that is centralized in Providence... No threats of massive Northeast blackouts.
-Create new jobs in technology... specifically... fuel cell automotive technology... which could lead to a new market for fuel cell cars for RI. Given RI's location on Narragansett Bay... and it's location between NY and Boston, the Ports of Providence as well as Quonset could thrive again as shipping centers for this new auto technology. This would bolster the state's economy... and create more jobs for Rhode Islanders. Creating a new clean commuter rail system, clean energy and clean cars would change the face of Rhode Island... and help us all to breathe easier... and not worry about the demise of oil.
-Create Rail Stations along the existing 295... and the completed East Bay section which would connect at Warwick and Attleboro. These stations should have parking areas to allow people to park there and ride into the city via commuter rail. There could also be a commuter line that would follow the path of 295... linking suburban RI.
-I think we should get away from buses as we know buses... they're dirty, create pollution and only inconvenience drivers along our roads. Moving the majority of the bus traffic to commuter rail would make sense. There could be street car/tram system that could link urban areas in Providence and perhaps other cities... but those should be localized. If we can create new buses that are fueled by the same fuel cell technology... then they might be beneficial to a new RI transit system.
-I believe Cotuit suggested linking the commuter rail with ferries... that's a great idea. Linking different methods of transportation is key.
-I think we need to seriously look at the urban sprawl in RI and how it's destroying our communities. Creating 5 mile long interconnected malls along Route 1 in Attleboro for example. Creating 45 traffic lights on a 2 mile stretch of road to accomodate every single giant store that our commericial society has to offer. I thought that's what malls were supposed to be? A place you could go and find anything you wanted in one place. We still have that... except now that one place is one road cutting through the heart of a residential community. It doesn't make sense to me. Malls have multiple floors and escalators that allow to access different levels.. there's more space that way. How many of these giant sprawled out stripmalls with even larger lakes of asphalt surrounding them are multi-level? Everything's easily accessible on the ground floor... but these spaces are so large it's almost grotesque. Traffic jams along these corridors are a daily occurence... and nuisance for locals trying to drive home from work. The Holiday season traffic jams are legendary. So how do we solve this problem?

What if we actually had malls that were malls? You can throw your Home Depot and Walmart on the bottom floor as your "Anchors"... and then you can build up on top of that? Why not? Why not have these shopping areas closer to the city... perhaps on the edge of the metro ring? (around or off of 295). Why not have frequent rail service from these shopping areas to the rest of the state... eliminating these annoying traffic jams. It's safer, cleaner, and more efficient to have people traveling this way. At least then you'd have the light shoppers off the roads. But of course... when you want to buy plywood at Home Depot - you're not going to want to carry that onto the train with you. So we obviously need to keep the highways open so that pickups and SUV's can roam (new fuel cell ones of course). HOWEVER, if you have other rail lines radiating out from the city... where the majority of people in RI work... then those people riding home don't have to deal with the mall traffic. It's not a perfect idea... but it's on the right track. We need to have new regulations which limit where and how businesses can build. If we explain these new regulations and show people how this works better - businesses will adapt and thrive when they see how it works better.
-We need to recreate the heart of our communities. Some communities around the state either lost their center long ago, or it was never part of it's design in the first place. New residential developments would have to incorporate a center at it's core which would mix municipal services like fire, police, schools, libraries and light commercial zoning.

It's just a few ideas...

Perhaps someone could create a separate thread where all of our ideas are listed and incorporated into one single posting that's edited as more people contribute. That way we can keep track of how things grow... We could also throw a poll in there.

DaveRPI, on Mar 10 2005, 11:35 AM, said:

can you imagine them trying to put rt 95 in now!!!! haha yeah right! can you imagine RI without rt 95?  can you imagine our economy without it? we wouldnt have even been the speed bump on the way to the cape!  we would have been the state everyone drove around because it takes 2 hours to travel thru a 30 mile wide state! bold changes are the only ones that work. going halfway only leaves you open to attacks from competitors. This is why foxwoods keeps adding on- thats why the they want to create a power block- thats why paolino wants his towers over 20 stories, etc. so i agree with your bold ideas, but there are so many nimby's, so many people who have nothing better to do than to offer an opposing position because they do not want change, so many people who are uninformed about how things grow, and so many people who only care about themselves. or are there only a few speaking for the many? i think this website says it all. the many are speaking here finally, but the "many" are the ones who do not speak up when so many projects get presented and the "few" are the ones who do and then create a situation where the public believes they are a legitimate majority opinion.

I can't imagine RI without Route 95... and at the same time... I can. However that vision is further down the road then the ones being discussed here. Route 95 was vital for Rhode Island's growth... but it's not enough anymore. More bold moves must be taken to ensure that RI continues to grow generations from now...

**Can someone please explain to me what a "NIMBY" is. I keep hearing the expression... but I have no idea what the heck it means.**

As far as nothing changing... that's only true because Rhode Island has lacked new strong leadership. I'm sure there's a variety of factors that have stopped brilliant plans in the past. For instance, when I suggested completing the 295 ring a few days ago... I had no idea that their were plans to do just that in the 1970's under the name "Route 895". I'm sure that corruption and greed have played their part. But we all tend to put off things that we don't want to face for one reason or another. It hasn't been a critical issue for Rhode Islanders... and as a result, there is no public outcry and officials can do what they want. If Rhode Islanders say what they want - and support this proposal, then the government that serves the people has to act on public demand. We CAN make a difference.

DaveRPI, on Mar 10 2005, 11:35 AM, said:

We need a huge, bold, and forward looking transit system presented now. it takes forever to get these things built and so many people will pick and pry things away from the overall proposal that by the end it will only be half as large. so i say go so big that when it gets built its the original size we wanted it anyways!    and i dont even mind if the gov't runs it... rail needs to be there, its just like the highways from the 60's to me....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Agreed... I'm doing my best, and so are you. We all want to see things change... otherwise we wouldn't come here to talk and share ideas. You and others have given me so much to think about, and I thank you. People like you that come here and present these ideas is why I'm quickly becoming addicted to this forum. When I come here and I read the responses to my posts, and read other's posts on here... I can't help but be excited by what everyone is bringing to the table. There's so many good ideas being presented every day and where one proposal may lack, others fill in the blanks. There's criticism of certain ideas and features... but all of it is constructive.

For a long time now my biggest aspirations have lied in music - but this forum is feeding a curiosity and fascination in me. I've always wanted to make a big impact on people... whether it's with my words or my music. Yet I see so many problems right now with how things work here in Rhode Island... a place i've always called home. It seems like there's so much room for growth and for new ideas... only limited by the community's acceptance of the status quo. It took booms of creativity and bold ideas to steer America into a new Transportation age... and a new age of Technology... yet despite all of America's advancements... our infrastructure is falling apart. America... supposed greatest nation on the planet is failing to push itself forward with the improvements and new thinking it so desparately needs.

So it's really making me wonder how I can make a difference with this mess. I'm only a high school graduate... I never studied urban planning, or architecture or business. Yet I feel like I have a good head on my shoulders, and a strong passion for creativity and solving problems through that creativity. I wonder how I can make a difference in Rhode Island's future... and the idea of being part of a new movement to reshape Rhode Island's communities excites me. The idea of pushing forward the ideas that are being discussed here by many bright and thoughtful people excites me. I want to make a difference... I want to see these ideas taken from these pages to our newspapers and magazines. I want to see these ideas reach the taxpayers of this state and let them think about the ideas we are discussing. I want to see tv reports and discussion on talk radio. I want to see a new age of growth and prosperity for Rhode Island's cities and communities.

I think the way we do that is by putting all of our heads together and coming up with a solid, well-thought out, calculated plan. We need to dream big, and we need to answer every question to truly get these initatives from our dreams to the desks of legislators and officials. We need to poll... and get as many ideas as possible from Rhode Islanders... We need to make a comprehensive plan that covers and incorporates as many good ideas as possible into a solid proposal - and then get the word out through the Media. We have numerous writers here that could submit articles and designers that could submit renderings. We could push for this, and make our voices heard if we all made a commitment to doing this.

So let's keep things going. Let's continue to share ideas and fine-tune things. Let's get all these ideas out... and piece it all together into a solid proposal. If we put all of our heads together - we can spark discussion, and more importantly raise awareness of these glaring problems with our state's infrastructure. We dream big, and we want great things for our cities and our state. But if nothing more comes from this proposal than awakening Rhode Island to these problems then we've done something big. Others might slam our proposal or dream up their own solutions... but the only way anything is going to get done is if people realize that there is work to be done.

Thanks for reading... and for participating...

--vallon

[Cotuit]

Holy impassioned speech Batman!

It's getting late for me to properly respond to such a long and well thought post. I have some points of agreement, and a few places where we're not on the same page. This is a long term discussion, I have plenty to say, later...

I will help you with this for tonight though:

Vallon, on Mar 10 2005, 10:18 PM, said:

**Can someone please explain to me what a "NIMBY" is. I keep hearing the expression... but I have no idea what the heck it means.**

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not In My Back Yard. Someone who wants things to change, and be better, as long as they don't have to deal with it.

[Vallon]

eltron, on Mar 10 2005, 11:43 AM, said:

I think MANY, MANY people would disagree with you here, myself being one of them. I would argue that they in most cases the planners of the time made huge mistakes, to in many cases horrific consequences, and we are now spending billions, if not trillions (The Big Dig says hi...) to at least partially alleviate those mistakes.

I could imagine a quite wonderful Rhode Island without a route 95, or at least one that didn't rip a giant gash through the city and some of its most interesting neighbhorhoods.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree with you... and disagree with you. I know where you're coming from... and I think you make a good point. But I also see the point Dave was making. I think you're both looking at 95 very differently. Dave can't imagine Rhode Island without the Interstate system as he realizes it was necessary to draw people into the state instead of being a hindrance for travelers going to Boston or New York. But I also agree with the points you made in regard to the mistakes and why the Big Dig was needed. But what I think you're not taking into context is the fact that the Big Dig wasn't possible 50/40 years ago when these Interstates were going up. The Big Dig was only possible because advances in technology and engineering. At the time the Interstate went up... it made a lot of sense. Those engineers were looking to link our cities and they successfully did so. The only problem came in HOW they were linked. The approaches that were necessary cut through neighborhoods and in many cases looked good on paper... but translated horribly with ugly raised highways (like the Central Artery in Boston for example). Do you think if it was possible to move 95 underground in Providence they would have? Of course they would.

We see what's possible now, and we sometime forget that what's possible now wasn't years ago. So you make good points about how the Interstate system hurt cities. We know how it hurt Boston... and we know how it hurt New York... and right now with the relocation of 195... we know how it "disconnected" the Jewelry District. But 25 years ago... did anyone care about the Jewelry District? If Providence hadn't experienced this "Renaissance"... would any of us be talking about linking Providence with the rest of the State? I don't think we would. A lot of things have changed over time. I think the point Dave was making is that in order for things to change... things need to change. It's a simple premise, yet it may be uncomfortable for some... namely those who would have to relocate as a result of this change. But I think the amount of interest and discussion here is proof that change is needed. We need to do something to upgrade our transit system... and really, our entire infrastructure. We need to rethink how our communities are defined... and how well they function. We can't allow history to tie our hands and prevent us from re-molding the Rhode Island landscape.

I'll give you an example...

Rhode Island is full of mill villages from a bygone era where life centered and revolved around the mill. These villages grew and thrived because they had centers, because people lived together and worked together. People played together... There was a true sense of community... However these old villages were transformed once the factories closed down. The Interstate system is partially responsible for this. The Interstate Age was part of the catalyst that brought down big industry in New England and moved it South. That was the start of the decline of these communities. Villages lost their center... rails closed down... and everything became dependent on the "highway". The highway brought benefits but it also brought problems. New developments popped up, without defined centers and people had to travel further to get the things that they needed... things that you once could get in the village, you now had to travel miles to get. The point i'm trying to make is that communities changed a lot in the past 50 years... partially as a result of this new Interstate system.

I think if we want to change how our communities function... drastic changes are necessary... changes that would reshape blocks of streets all over the state. Businesses would need to be relocated in areas defined for commercial use. The entire state... community by community would have to be rezoned. It's not something that would happen over night... but rather a process that would take years... but would eventually make our communities stronger and more functional. Residential areas would be more attractive places to live... which would boost overall land values, and property taxes. Dense areas around the state that suffer from poor design would be restructured to maximize space and improve urban communities. It's not just urban renewal... it's redefining the city and town. Rhode Island because of it's size and location could easily be the model for this new system. Urban sprawl would be killed in it's tracks like a weed... and slowly, would be replaced overtime by defined communities linked by safe, clean, fast transit to the cities. Cities would become more dense... but cities would thrive and function the way that cities are supposed to. Massive areas in the suburbs that are occupied by Urban Sprawl would be redeveloped as new residential communities with defined village centers that would make them inviting places to live.

It's a very grand scheme... and one that most likely will be laughed at by many... but it's the type of bold reorganization that Rhode Island communities need. The mill isn't the center of our neighborhoods anymore... in a sense... Rhode Island has become one giant village... and Providence needs to be our core. It needs to be the village center for all of Rhode Island. That will help the "mill" to stay running for many years to come... and that'll ensure that the "village" remains an attractive place for people to live, work and play for many years to come.

In order for such a grand scheme to happen, past footprints would have to be replaced by new ones. But every generation deserves the right to leave it's mark, this one is no different.

Edited by Vallon, 10 March 2005 - 11:32 PM.

[Vallon]

Cotuit, on Mar 10 2005, 10:32 PM, said:

Holy impassioned speech Batman!

It's getting late for me to properly respond to such a long and well thought post. I have some points of agreement, and a few places where we're not on the same page. This is a long term discussion, I have plenty to say, later...

I will help you with this for tonight though:
Not In My Back Yard. Someone who wants things to change, and be better, as long as they don't have to deal with it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

- Thanx... I appreciate it. Didn't mean to give a speech... it just uhh... sorta came out that way...

[Vallon]

Liamlunchtray, on Mar 10 2005, 11:59 AM, said:

I cant imagine RI without 95, but I would certainly love it if it didnt split the city. I think that decking it over is far and away the best idea (At least from Atwells to Broad st)

There were certainly a lot of mistakes made in building the interstate system, but there was also a huge amount of good that came out of it. With most of the mistakes it is a hindsight is 20/20 kind of issue. It would have been hard for them to know how drasticly 95 would split the city before it was built.

Liam

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Great post Liam... I wish I would have read it before trying to explain what you already did perfectly. I just basically repeated your sentiments and stretched it out.

I agree with you on the decking thing. If it was just from Atwells to Broad Street... that would be a pretty minor tunnel... but would allow for a significant amount of growth. It's a good plan... and one I hope to see constructed sooner rather than later.

[pdxstreetcar]

I have taken the 20-Airport RIPTA bus many times and find it to be a great way to get from the airport to downtown. It only takes about 20 minutes since it runs non stop from downtown on I95 to the airport, but I agree tourists arent about to ride a city bus. The 12-Elmwood runs more frequently to the airport but is much slower since it runs down Elmwood. I have thought Elmwood might be a good street for a light rail line since it is a major street in a dense corridor.

Also I think a downtown circulator streetcar would make a lot of sense to connect the major parts of downtown together. Maybe a downtown fareless square would be good too. The streetcar could also run into the Jewelry District to spur redevelopment.


Regarding the abandoned rail tunnel under College Hill, I would think this would be an essential piece of a future transit system. Did Brown propose a rubber tire people mover for in the tunnel or were they talking about buses? Hopefully the approaches to the tunnel are publicly owned so that when the day comes to reopen the tunnel buses/trains can continue into downtown.

Perhaps a LRT line could be built along the side of the Northeast corridor from Pawtucket thru Prov and out to Cranston & Roger Williams Park.

With the current East Side Bus Tunnel, I think the street between the tunnel's west portal and kennedy plaza (Washington St.) should have bus lanes along the south side of the road so that buses and trolleys can run two ways on washington having a more direct route (and dont have to go one block on Main then turn left on Steeple). Also did I hear that the east side tunnel was going to get some renovations???

Edited by pdxstreetcar, 11 March 2005 - 12:10 AM.

[Cotuit]

pdxstreetcar, on Mar 11 2005, 01:07 AM, said:

I have taken the 20-Airport RIPTA bus many times and find it to be a great way to get from the airport to downtown.  It only takes about 20 minutes since it runs non stop from downtown on I95 to the airport, but I agree tourists arent about to ride a city bus. The 12-Elmwood runs more frequently to the airport but is much slower since it runs down Elmwood. I have thought Elmwood might be a good street for a light rail line since it is a major street in a dense corridor. 

Also I think a downtown circulator streetcar would make a lot of sense to connect the major parts of downtown together.  Maybe a downtown fareless square would be good too.  The streetcar could also run into the Jewelry District to spur redevelopment.

Regarding the abandoned rail tunnel under College Hill, I would think this would be an essential piece of a future transit system.  Did Brown propose a rubber tire people mover for in the tunnel or were they talking about buses?  Hopefully the approaches to the tunnel are publicly owned so that when the day comes to reopen the tunnel buses/trains can continue into downtown.

Perhaps a LRT line could be built along the side of the Northeast corridor from Pawtucket thru Prov and out to Cranston & Roger Williams Park.

With the current East Side Bus Tunnel, I think the street between the tunnel's west portal and kennedy plaza (Washington St.) should have bus lanes along the south side of the road so that buses and trolleys can run two ways on washington having a more direct route (and dont have to go one block on Main then turn left on Steeple).  Also did I hear that the east side tunnel was going to get some renovations???

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Get out of my head! Those are many of the thoughts I've had. I really like the idea of two-way traffic on Washington for buses heading into the tunnel. I haven't heard anything about renovation to the east side tunnel, but it needs it.

I don't think Brown proposed the work for the abandoned east side tunnel, but I think they were backing it as a way to get students from East Providence to campus. That was interpreted as Brown building housing on the EP waterfront, which wasn't recieved warmly, so Brown has stepped back from it all. They agree opening the tunnel is a good idea, but sya they have nothing to do with it.

I was thinking about the idea of a fareless square, but I wonder if Providence is big enough to allow it to afford such a thing. I'm not sure how the economics of it all work in Portland and Seattle, but it seems that Providence is so small, how do you balance a fareless square that means anything, with needing to bring in fares?

[eltron]

pdxstreetcar, on Mar 11 2005, 02:07 AM, said:

... have thought Elmwood might be a good street for a light rail line since it is a major street in a dense corridor. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Huh, funny...
I was just now looking at some historical photos that show a much greener and pleasent Elmwood Avenue with a trolley running right down the middle, circa about 1920. Very nice. I'm working on a project with RIDOT right now for Elmwood Ave...maybe I can convince them to reinstate the trolley !

Actually, we are going to be having public design charettes for the street redesign coming up soon...I'll keep everyone posted if they are interested...

[pdxstreetcar]

I thought I heard there was going to be some money for a tunnel renovation in a budget request that also included a RIPTA CNG fueling station, I dont remember too much more about it.

I think Washington St. (between Memorial & Main) is wider than needed for current traffic (especially the bridge over the river). Theres only 2 travel lanes used now but I would guess the road is wide enough for 4 lanes.
They might be able to do something like this:
-->
-->
<-- BUS
--> BUS

Then make the 1 block section of Washington (by the Fed Bldg & PO) between Exchange & Memorial a bus-only road (since its narrower). This short busway between Main & Kennedy Plaza could also be used for the 33, 34, 60, although mostly just the inbound buses.

Edited by pdxstreetcar, 11 March 2005 - 09:19 AM.